in this "art". Fuck any "artist" that feels they can abuse/exploit animals in this way. Wanna bring "attention to the violence of humankind"? Use humans. Plenty of subjects/examples to work from, including this "artist".

As someone above mentioned, the animals are not willful participants. They're being abused.

Totally sickening. The exhibit could just as well have been titled "Artist Without a Soul".

https://www.change.org/p/promote-cruelty-free-exhibits-at-the-guggenheim?recruiter=36185822&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial.combo_new_control_progress_bar&utm_content=ex5%3Av4

The precise relevance to the OP being...?

life. These are also animals that are considered pets and sacred in some cultures, just as dear to people as dogs are.

So, what's the point of this comment that does more than border on racism?

I'm going to side with the artists.

How precisely does you rationalize the abuse of animals for mere art?

So you're ok with torture, as long as it is in the cause of "art?" But maybe you just forgot the sarcasm smilie.

If you want to see what Chinese artists are doing now, you have to accept that the Chinese have a different culture. Or do you suppose that only western culture is "good"? The Guggenheim was wrong to bring this show over because America is western centric and cannot accept other cultural views.


But go ahead and judge 3 billion people from a foreign country based on your cultural criteria.

I wholeheartedly disagree!
You're on the wrong page here!

If not, then it is your own biased opinion.

Quit digging!

Last edited Tue Sep 26, 2017, 11:58 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm not going to condone your ethnocentrism.

They delight in torturing the animals they kill for food (dogs), because they think it makes the meat taste better. I boycott visiting them, in fact. Husband has had several invitations and I refuse to go there. He's also done with that country after the last trip for business next year. Oh, and I do not care how many people live in that country. Wtf does that have to do with anything? Oh, and I have been there, as well as many other Asian countries, so don't tell me I have no awareness of their culture.

You are a westerner. They are easterners. They have a different world view than you do. They have different cultural values/norms/mores than you. You do NOT get to dictate to them what they should do. You do NOT get to dictate to them how they should think. If you don't like it, then do not go to see the art. WTF does your value judgement have to do with their work?

Artists have nothing if those who view their art do not like it.

It's your right not to like it, even to be disgusted by it. But you have to judge the art based on the values of the culture that produced it. The post above about Chinese eating dogs makes a good point. I wouldn't eat a dog, and you probably wouldn't either. However, China has been eating dogs for two thousand years (look up the history of the Chow Chow). It is part of their tradition, their culture. The Guggenheim is bringing that culture over here. It is out of context, and that must be appreciated. In China no one would think this is torture or abuse of animals.

For instance, suppose you created a work of art that depicted a family sitting down to eat a steak dinner. No big deal, right? Take that work of art over to India to display and you will have a riot. Who is right? Americans eat steak all the time. Indians view the cow as sacred. Two cultures. Two norms. Two very different ways of viewing the art.

And it's not just that they eat dogs, they TORTURE them first. Do you understand how sick that is? I have no sympathy about how long that SICK culture has existed. Cultures only change when enough people stand up and state NO MORE. I met activists in China when we were there who are trying to change the hideous culture of not just animal torture and extermination, but exploitation of humans, particularly children. Cultures change all the time and China needs to do something about abuses of animals, including humans.

I would have to say that labeling the culture "sick" is not going to change many views. It will probably piss more than a few people off. It's only through teaching them a different way of viewing animals that will eventually change their minds. I found this NatGeo article interesting because it talks about why Chinese don't appreciate dogs (and other animals), and it seems to support your claim that they are making headway introducing respect for animals: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/wildlife-watch-china-changing-animal-protection/

When the concept of animal rights became a societal standard and organizations like the humane society started calling people out and fighting to change laws.

I don't like any type of animal or insect fighting for amusement of humans. But I respect that China and places like Spain and Mexico (cockfighting) have a different view on that issue.

Much of my daily life is spent trying to stop such horrors.

wrongheaded traditions like eating pets and using ivory.

I'm tired of arguing that there are other cultures in this world and that one is not morally superior to all the rest.

I'm open to the possibility that Chinese culture doesn't even give a second thought to the morality of treating dogs in this manner.


I think everyone is completely misunderstanding my point. I LOVE dogs. I own two dogs (both adopted from rescues). I base my walks on where I can pet dogs. This is not about my moral view. This is about accepting that these particular Chinese artists come from a background where dogs are not thought of in the same way we think of them. If an American artist did this, I would be the first to want to lock his/her sorry ass up. But this is a Chinese artist from China. I am not going to blame the artist just because he/she was not raised in a culture that does not support views similar to my own. And I am not going to condemn the culture either. What I will support is the promotion of ethical treatment of animals where there is none. So I am completely allied with these new groups springing up in China (described in the article I posted earlier) that are educating the country about animal welfare.

irrelevant.

Your personal feelings, pro or anti dog doesn't matter. What we are talking about is inflicting suffering on creatures for entertainment. No matter what that is sick. It doesn't matter if it's done in New York, Beijing, Paris, or Timbuktu.

Do you, too, want to label them as "sick", condemn them, keep them at arm's length? Or would you rather look past their current behavior and work on educating them about animal welfare? Change their beliefs, change their behavior.

The difference between us is not as great as you believe. It's the difference between getting angry at the culture and taking pity on the people who are raised in that culture not understanding that dog fighting is inhumane.

at the Chinese, I'm angry at individuals who think cruelty is OK and individuals who participate in it.

So, I applaud those who put pressure on the Guggenheim to remove works of art that glorify cruelty.

The word Guggenheim has probably been typed more in the last 24 hours than in the last 24 months.

It would be one thing if they were showing dogs being slaughtered for food. I wouldn't watch it, but that's how eating meat works. Torturing them first? That's pretty fucked up.

I can also see that, especially if it were a temporary installation of 150 pieces, someone didn't think because no one bothered looking. Between the pretentiousness, the drugs, the obliviousness, and the entitlement, it's a fucking miracle that the Guggenheim hasn't burned all its franchises to the ground in the name of performance art.

I fucking love art and everything about it, and have been all over the world just to see some old statue I half-remembered from some book I read in the fifth grade. If a person can't admit that "performance art" is, more often than not, poorly thought out and totally full of shit? Then that person is most likely a performance artist of some sort.

(I'm also opinionated and sometimes loud. Shit talking and then complimenting is what I like best about modern art. I've been physically escorted from the premises of the Smithsonian for loudly shit talking Rothko -- because FUCK THAT HACK -- and I'm proud to say that I was threatened with expulsion from the Tate Modern a few months ago for being equally vocally vociferous in my dislike of motherfucking Rothko)