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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWow. From the New Yorker: John Kelly and the Language of the Military Coup
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/john-kelly-and-the-language-of-the-military-coupArgument 1. Those who criticize the President dont know what theyre talking about because they havent served in the military. To demonstrate how little lay people know, Kelly provided a long, detailed explanation of what happens when a soldier is killed in battle: the body is wrapped in whatever is handy, flown by helicopter, then packed in ice, then flown again, then repacked, then flown, then embalmed and dressed in uniform with medals, and then flown home. Kelly provided a similar amount of detail about how family members are notified of the death, when, and by whom. He even recommended a film that dramatized the process of transporting the body of a real-life marine, Private First Class Chance Phelps. This was a Trumpian moment, from the phrasinga very, very good movieto the message. Kelly stressed that Phelps was killed under my command, right next to me; in other words, Kellys real-life experience was recreated for television, and that, he seemed to think, bolstered his authority.
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2. The President did the right thing because he did exactly what his general told him to do. Kelly went on a rambling explication of speaking to the President not once but twice about how to make the call to Myeshia Johnson. After Kellys son was killed while serving in Afghanistan, the chief of staff recalled, his own best friend had consoled him by saying that his son was doing exactly what he wanted to do when he was killed. He knew what he was getting into by joining that one per cent. Trump apparently tried to replicate this message when he told Johnson that her husband, La David, had known what he was signing up for. The negative reaction to this comment, Kelly said, had stunned him.
A week earlier, Kelly had taken over the White House press briefing in an attempt to quash another scandal and ended up using the phrase I was sent in, twice, in reference to his job in the White House. Now he seemed to be saying that, since he was sent in to control the President and the President had, this time, more or less carried out his instructions, the President should not be criticized.
3. Communication between the President and a military widow is no ones business but theirs. A day earlier, the Washington Post had quoted a White House official saying, The presidents conversations with the families of American heroes who have made the ultimate sacrifice are private. The statement contained a classic Trumpian reversal: the President was claiming for himself the right to privacy that belonged to his interlocutor. But Myeshia Johnson had apparently voluntarily shared her conversation with her mother-in-law and Congresswoman Frederica Wilson by putting the President on speakerphone.
Now Kelly took it up a notch. Not only was he claiming that the President, communicating with a citizen in his official capacity, had a right to confidentialityhe was claiming that this right was sacred. Indeed, Kelly seemed to say, it was the last sacred thing in this country. ...
-snip-
4. Citizens are ranked based on their proximity to dying for their country. Kellys last argument was his most striking. At the end of the briefing, he said that he would take questions only from those members of the press who had a personal connection to a fallen soldier, followed by those who knew a Gold Star family. Considering that, a few minutes earlier, Kelly had said most Americans didnt even know anyone who knew anyone who belonged to the one per cent, he was now explicitly denying a majority of Americansor the journalists representing themthe right to ask questions. This was a new twist on the Trump Administrations technique of shunning and shaming unfriendly members of the news media, except this time, it was framed explicitly in terms of national loyalty. As if on cue, the first reporter allowed to speak inserted the phrase Semper Fia literal loyalty oathinto his question.
-snip-
When Kelly replaced the ineffectual Reince Priebus as the chief of staff, a sigh of relief emerged: at least the general would impose some discipline on the Administration. Now we have a sense of what military discipline in the White House sounds like.
msongs
(67,438 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)all have constraints on their behaviors and rules to follow, and those emphatically include not taking over our government.
One thing we have in common with the right is uneasiness over so many of "the generals" brought into this administration. In fact, a good number are so carried away over on that side have been insisting for some time that we'll wake up any morning and find ourselves living under a military dictatorship.
Probably not.
And by the way, a huge thing to remember is that we do NOT have a centralized government. Not only would the other two thirds of our federal government have something to say about it, if only from prison, but fifty states, plus sundry other elements, would have a whole lot to say. No way would California or any other of the blue states, for instance, go along. While most of the red states have practically made a religion lately out of states' rights and opposing the federal government.
And then there are all the military personnel themselves...
Perseus
(4,341 posts)msongs is correct, at then end of it all, the military will obey the whims of trump, they will not go against his "command", they may try to persuade him, but they will not disobey him, which is unfortunate and dangerous.
And for those who wish for the military to take over in order to get rid of the man-child? Be very careful of what you wish for, most of the high level military IS corrupt, everywhere in the World, and they have blinders so they only walk on line.
Look at other countries where the military has taken over, look at other countries where smart dictators have put the military on their side, the outcome has been very bad for the citizens. John Kelly is a good example, he has shown to everyone that not only will he get on his knees with open mouth if Trump asks him to, but that he pities anyone who has not served, all those who have not served are 2nd grade citizens, and when the time comes he will quash them like cockroaches.
John Kelly is a disgrace, no matter if he served, he has proven that he is a little man, just like the one he serves, and that his patriotism is non-existent, his loyalty is to a human cockroach.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)rwsanders
(2,606 posts)The military would be called in to put out small fires. Look at how most of the government treats environmental and peace activists now. So they would be called in to quell "unrest". Most of America and the government would look away, even if it crossed a line. Then they would go round up the "leaders" in late night raids. It would be an inch by inch thing that would just be the culmination of events that are on-going already. If you doubt this look at what has happened to Paul Watson and the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society. They are doing the job our government should be doing in the Southern Ocean, but they are treated as enemies of the state. The disparity of what is happening to the Black Lives Matter movement vs. the Klan, Nazis, and other "alt-right" types is another example. It doesn't take a movement of the entire government, just a few bad players in key positions. That is why the CIA has done so well with their overseas disruptions.
radhika
(1,008 posts)canetoad
(17,180 posts)Powerful piece.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)that pops to mind for this particular worry arising from these particular words.
Kelly has to persuade an erratic, mentally disordered man who is prone to emotional rages to like and trust him enough to at least sometimes be influenced by him. And to not fire him.
Kelly has to somehow do this while the national media every single day tell this dangerously disordered president he himself is just that and that Kelly's there to keep him controlled. Not a good thing.
So my best guess is that he is using this extremely unimportant "issue" to placate Trump by pretending to be on Trump's side in this trumped up CondolenceCallGate, and demonstrating it by representing him to the press.
More_Cowbell
(2,191 posts)He also didn't need to limit questions to Gold Star family reporters.
These are not unimportant issues. They didn't exist before Kelly's speech: he introduced them into the discussion.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)I just turned on CNN and MSNBC, both lasered in on Kelly's comments. Now Rump and Kelly are foxhole buddies, so to speak.
AND, while the conversation is distracted to Kelly, Las Vegas, Ivanka's clothes, whatever, the media, and we, aren't talking about the administration's likely deadly-stupid mistakes with Chad and Niger, people dying for lack of medical care in Puerto Rico.
The administration's moving forward with dismantling the VA while people are talking about a condolence call.
Yes, to that last. How to deal with all the soldiers that just get injured instead of killed? Get rid of the VA and turn their need for lifelong care into a profit center for profiteers. Until the costs break them, of course. Then they can be dead ex-soldiers.
Ilsa
(61,697 posts)I trust him less than ever before because of the breadth of his speech yesterday.
He could have come out and said, "I told trump what to say, it wasn't received well, and we need to let this go."
Instead, he rambles on about women being "sacred" (WTF?), no one else understands grief but the military, lies and more lies about the Congresswoman, etc. He should have owned the rancid and inappropriate advice and shut up.
I don't trust him to keep DOTUS reined in, either. His judgment is suspect. Now the WH is declaring that the rest of us peons have no business questioning the ex general. They might as well try to tell us to stop thinking.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)as he's tried to remain officially apolitical, and my observations are that that usually acts as a limitation on thinking, though varying wildly in degree.
Interestingly, his role in charge of the U.S.'s Southern Command of 32 nations reportedly included disaster and humanitarian relief. Wonder what he thinks about Puerto Rico, but of course what he could say about Trump and his administration means that if he writes a book someday I'll certainly read it.
Ilsa
(61,697 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)anyone associated with this administration, and with today's Republican Party leadership, is going to have something wrong with him, become associated with wrongful activities, and likely end up behaving wrongly personally.
Even if the person has an officially good reputation, the mere fact that THIS group of slimebuckets, and those vetting from the background like the Koch group, found reason to believe he could work with them raises big doubts about its validity. Just look at all the scummers the Kochs were satisfied would serve them and stuffed Trump's cabinet with.
Irish_Dem
(47,347 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,034 posts)It's people like Dear Leader Don Dong Ill and shareholders in the Military Industrial Complex who like war.
sarge43
(28,944 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,034 posts)It is too often arranged to have lots of civilians in foreign lands do a lot of dying and bleeding.
For example, in Iraq, a lot more civilians died than all the military combined.
But Don Dong Ill is the kind of person who thinks they don't count.
american_ideals
(613 posts)The Iraq war plan was hatched before or during 9/11. Bybee, Feith, Cheney and the rest liked war for two reasons:
1. It rallied Americans falsely around GW Bush who used the popularity to cut taxes on GOP wealthy donors.
2. It allowed Cheney and Prince and other GOP to make money in Iraq. Shock Doctrine. Contracts for Halliburton and Blackrock.
Americans got killed? Who cares? Cheney and the Koches got what they wanted: money and votes.
Irish_Dem
(47,347 posts)War is how they make rank and go up the ladder. And then retire to take very lucrative positions with the civilian war industry.
I grew up in a military family and have seen the system up close and personal.
have a nephew that was career army. retired a col. he told me that the post viet nam era was very frustrating because promoting people for killing and winning is the only way they know to sort themselves out.
Irish_Dem
(47,347 posts)XRubicon
(2,212 posts)I served.
Because there is no draft and we have a standing military this country has completely lost its way.
Cheviteau
(383 posts)I served as well (8 yrs. active). When only one percent serves, the nation begins to speak of them as "the elite". In turn, they begin to see themselves as being elite among us. Without the draft, there is no bridge between "them" and "us".
I will catch a lot of flak for advocating a draft, but we're in dangerous territory here. We have become a nation ignorant of our military and its role in our society.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)and we should not maintain a standing military funded by debt of the magnitude we do now.
Everyone needs to participate in and pay for our wars. I think we would have far fewer.
Irish_Dem
(47,347 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,347 posts)some other countries?
Loge23
(3,922 posts)Last edited Fri Oct 20, 2017, 05:47 PM - Edit history (1)
We have one of the two primary political parties essentially fleeing their own core principals of fiscal conservatism in order to fall in line behind the moron. Is the military next? The military establishment, that is.
Both the republicans and the military brass are in it for their own selfish concerns - damned be the country.
Remember the moron's proclamation about "his generals"? Apparently, he has a handful or so of these traitors in his pocket.
Ask yourself: Is Kelly acting in the best interests of the country by supporting a fraudulent president that probably colluded with an adversary? Is McMasters? Is Mattis?
These guys in all probability do talk among themselves. They know the score here.
With many of the local police departments in the moron tank, it's not a stretch to imagine the worse scenario for what already appears to be a coup.
The end of the empire not only displays the breakdown of infrastructure, society, and civility; it also heralds in the next ruling government - and these guys don't intend to let go.
We're seeing some awful ominous smoke right now.
Butterflylady
(3,547 posts)We are going to crash and burn before we are able to build a new society. One would think that history repeating itself would be a good teacher, but evidently, a large portion of the population doesn't get it.
Nasruddin
(754 posts)No wonder Trump calls them my generals. Hes their puppet. The coup mustve taken place when Priebus and Bannon were cut loose. The generals probably made Trump an offer he couldnt refuse.
They need time to considate and eliminate rivals. They need a smooth talking front man - they havent found him or her yet.
I wonder whos in charge? Kelly? Mattis?someone less visible?
american_ideals
(613 posts)The GOP has been embracing racism to get votes for their billionaire donors for decades.
Trump just said out loud what the rest of the GOP only dogwhistled.
The GOP is Trump, and Trump has reaped the hate billionaire GOP donors sowed.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,034 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Don't they know their place in the world?
"Would it have killed them to use upper case T's?"
tomp
(9,512 posts)Virtually always has been, and certainly at least since the turn of the twentieth century. The romantic notions about the military in our culture should be opposed at every turn.
Serving your country? How about serving GE, Hallibuton, United Fruit, Goldman, etc.
Defending freedom? From whom, Guatemala? Vietnam?
And what freedom anyway? To slave for insufficent pay? To have our votes not count? To be shot in the street for being balck, etc.
I have empathy for people who enter the military because they have been fooled and are poorly treated. But I have zero trust for the military as a whole and especially their leadership.
If there were to be a military coup here it would surely be sanctioned by the corporate powers that be. Just a different form of corporate rule.
maxsolomon
(33,394 posts)This nation is deep in the delusion of Militarism. For the working class, it is a jobs program. Foremost, however, it is Corporate Socialism, unsurpassed in the history of the planet.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)muntrv
(14,505 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)american_ideals
(613 posts)dbackjon
(6,578 posts)General John Allen, who I never met but spoke against me last night, failed badly in his fight against ISIS. His record = BAD #NeverHillary
6:53 AM - 29 Jul 2016
Link to tweet
?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%23759024055123009536
Dustlawyer
(10,497 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)from actual experience many times living through a coup.
We have to ponder that we have a President and a Chief of Staff who aren't bright enough to manage a bereavement call.
Kelly has a startling lack of self awareness in that he tried to coach the President on making the kind of call that he would have like to have gotten, that fits his narrow world view.
Here is what a bereavement call should be like:
"Mrs Johnson I want to express the gratitude of the entire country for the sacrifice your husband has made for the entire country. We can only imagine how difficult this is for you. Is there anything that we can do right now to assist you during this difficult time?
His colleagues and commanders have told me that Sgt. Johnson was an asset to his unit and that he will be sorely missed. What can you tell me about him that you would like the country to know about him?"
If they can't handle a simple bereavement call then how in the hell are they going to handle a hot call from Putin, China, Pakistan or South Korea.
Just plain stupid.
Enoki33
(1,587 posts)a coup. Dotard seems to be preparing his base for unconditional support for someone who likely could be a delusional traitor.
Tatiana
(14,167 posts)Last edited Sun Oct 22, 2017, 12:40 AM - Edit history (1)
Reince left with his tail between his legs. Kelly was supposed to be the smart, reasoned, logical man who would keep Trump in line.
But what has become apparent is that Kelly is a lot like Trump, perhaps with a bit more intellectual aptitude.
Kelly is the one that coached Trump. That's where Trump got the line that Sgt. Johnson chose to serve/that was what he chose. Kelly projected his own own desires combined with actual events that took place with his own son onto this grieving family. Kelly has no idea how to offer sympathy either.
I'm actually quite frightened. I don't think McMaster or Mattis can manage to keep us out of war if those psychos in the White House want it.
Nasruddin
(754 posts)Originally I thought it was just a case of birds of a feather ....
narcissists tend to attract other narcissists and other disordered personalities.
Any person in power tends to attract all kinds of people seeking advantage
but narcs attract more of their own kind and select more. I don't know why,
but it seems to work for them.
Now I'm not so sure. I am thinking we just saw a partial decloaking of
the real ruler of the United States. Trump is just his tool. I am not sure
why he chose this moment to expose himself.
ancianita
(36,132 posts)making other plans.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)Being retired, he's not acting as a General. I have no idea what the real military think about his comments or whether he's acting on their behalf, himself or Trump.
Are his comments a reflection of what a military coup may look like? I suppose. But are they the views of our situation or the ramblings of a retired "has been" General who has to bow to the whims of an idiot?
George II
(67,782 posts)"Do you want get into a debate with a four star marine general?"
SergeStorms
(19,204 posts)cause to stop and think about where this country is heading, and at what rate. Good lord, this is one fucked up country, and Trump is making things exponentially worse.
spanone
(135,866 posts)Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)Trump supporting fools have all the goddamn power.
onit2day
(1,201 posts)military does not have a say in our government's executive branch and this is why we have non military personnel elected over the military. Especially when military is used as security for corporate thieves. Kelley needs to read General Smedley Butler's book "War is a Rackett". If he cared about these soldiers he'd be getting them out of the military, not using them as pawns.
NCjack
(10,279 posts)back home. Did I miss something? I don't recall him telling us about President Trump being present at Dover to receive the body. Or, did the president "honoring" the return of the dead soldiers with rounds of golf at one of properties?
alfredo
(60,075 posts)The professional military mind is by necessity an inferior and unimaginative mind; no man of high intellectual quality would willingly imprison his gifts in such a calling.
―H. G. Wells