Would it hurt you to say something positive and supportive of the various Dem messaging that we do have? Or to encourage people to vote and get involved in GTVO? Or that disillusionment with Trump and his criminal and traitorous crew offers us lots of electoral advanages? I am so tired of negative messaging about Dems. We need to stop being our own worst adversaries, and come together to elect Dems. There is only 2 things that we need to do: 1. resist GOP legislation, and 2. elect Dems in 2018.

A cautionary message when there's time to fix a problem has value.

And to say Dems have no message is flat out wrong and suggests we don't stsnd for anything, which is also flat out wrong. Do you think we need a flashy catch phrase along the lines of MAGA?

And there's less than a week until the 2017 elections. Everyone should be knocking or calling (DFA has a predictive dialer calling VA that DUers can sign up for).

Last edited Thu Nov 2, 2017, 05:57 PM - Edit history (1)

And we should ALWAYS be working on GOTV or GTVO or whatever you want to call it!

I hope you're doing your part.


I have 15 high school kids in my office making calls for a Board of Education race.

...like what order the letters go in get out the vote. We need to stop picking at each other and focusing on the big picture.

And yes, I am quite "seasoned" myself and have been making calls for years.

And then asked what people thought of what was discussed. That's all.

You're making something of nothing. I didn't write the headline and don't know who did. It's the discussion that interests me.

And then share their thoughts.

Now, why would you do that?

1 It's just as well that all these squabbles are happening now, but they better be sorted by early next year, or else fake news will try to increase the divide.

2 Everyone on the left should be forced to look at how the Republican party allowed far right fringe groups to own their party to such an extent that the moderates see no hope for the future, and are running away. That must not be allowed to happen in the Democratic Party.

"As of Nov. 7, 2016, there are just 823 Democratic state senators out of a total of 1,972 seats nationwide, according to NCSL data. Meanwile, Republicans have increased their ranks to 1,089.
Likewise, of the 5,411 state House seats, there are now 3,029 Republicans compared to 2,340 Democrats.
(Source: National Conference of State Legislatures)
The Democrats’ prior advantage in the nation’s governors’ mansions ... has also been lost. There are currently 31 Republican governors,"

Not to mention the federal House, Senate, and Presidency.

This country is extremely fortunate Republicans do not govern well.

The neoliberals in control of the Democratic party have failed the party. More importantly, they have failed the people of this country!

Message delivery, not the actual message. From womens right to choose, to infrastructure overhaul, to healthcare being a right, to fairness in taxation to advocacy for our environment etc. There's so much the Democratic Party have right, without the need to lurch to extremes. Their problem has been organization, in getting that message out there, not aggressively challenging the Right EVERYWHERE.

haven't "failed" anyone. We are failed by people who don't vote because they think they are so superior.

I can't take seriously anyone who is calling good Democrats neoliberals. It has all the intellectual heft of calling someone a cuck.

that they are!

proficient and can find stuff on your own.
How ever, allow me to post a couple of quotes from people with no "intellectual heft".

The first is from a September 1982 piece in the Washington Post by the editor of the Washington Monthly, Charles Pierce.

A Neo-Liberal's Manifesto

"NEO-LIBERALISM is a terrible name for an interesting, if embryonic, movement. As the sole culprit at the christening, I hereby attest to the innocence of the rest of the faithful. They deserve something better, because they are a remarkable group of people.

The best known are three promising senators: Bill Bradley of New Jersey, Gary Hart of Colorado and Paul Tsongas of Massachusetts. The ones I know best are my fellow journalists, including James Fallows and Gregg Easterbrook of The Atlantic, Michael Kinsley and Robert M. Kaus of Harper's, Nicholas Lemann and Joseph Nocera of Texas Monthly, and Randall Rothenberg of New Jersey Monthly. But there are many others, ranging from an academic economist like MIT's Lester Thurow to a mayor like Houston's Kathy Whitmire to a governor like Arizona's Bruce Babbitt. There's even a cell over at that citadel of traditional liberalism, The New Republic."

"If neo-conservatives are liberals who took a critical look at liberalism and decided to become conservatives, we are liberals who took the same look and decided to retain our goals but to abandon some of our prejudices. We still believe in liberty and justice and a fair chance for all, in mercy for the afflicted and help for the down and out. But we no longer automatically favor unions and big government or oppose the military and big business. Indeed, in our search for solutions that work, we have come to distrust all automatic responses, liberal or conservative."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1982/09/05/a-neo-liberals-manifesto/21cf41ca-e60e-404e-9a66-124592c9f70d/?utm_term=.e0a284b6f116

The last from that noted intellectual lightweight Noam Chomsky,

"As a result of the activism of the ’60s and the militancy of labor, there was a falling rate of profit. That’s not acceptable. So we have to reverse the falling rate of profit, we have to undermine democratic participation, what comes? Neoliberalism, which has exactly those effects."
https://www.thenation.com/article/noam-chomsky-neoliberalism-destroying-democracy/

with you retread made solid points that we should be looking at for the future. Thank you for highlighting them.

blockquote the passage retread wrote to point out your agreement with the points made. I thought it was very insightful.

KUDOS to you too!

glad we could come together to highlight the excellent post by retread though.

what someone has said to you when you have conversations IRL? It seems a bit aberrant.

Who knew?

our tete-a-tete I see that you blockquoted not to praise, but to condemn. That with your now repeating my words in blockquote strikes me as odd. Sort of like Senator Dole repeating the last word in his sentences.

even for Congress.

to read the diatribes against the word "neoliberal" on DU these days; it used to be a commonly accepted and understood term. Now we've got the frantic, and failing, attempt to rebrand. Neoliberalism is real. It's harmful. Those who espouse it should own it, not try to deny it.

cause a McGovern style loss.

of a "real progressive" winning a red district. McGovern is on the other hand a clear example they are wrong.

decades.

The Eagle can't fly with two right wings.

Where's the extra left wing?

the internal spectrum of the Democratic Party (because that's what I was referring to) ?

And we need to constantly push to make sure our party stays different. Big corporate money is always out there, along with the big corporate agenda.

All we need to do is SHOW UP!

the American people, overnight. I suspect those of the far left know that, and it's why the term "Progressive" has been pushed. What those in center have also done in reaction, is to throw that cloak over themselves too. So pretty much everyone in the Democratic Party is a "Progressive" too (if you're not Progressive, then what are you, type of vibe). There are plenty of things that need to be fixed in the structure, which Tom Perez and Keith Ellison seem to be addressing. I hope people will let them get on with it.

accomplishments. And if we lose again...the courts are gone and it really doesn't matter anymore for years...perhaps a generation. So we fight for survival and honestly left right divide is meaningless at this point...when faced with the fascism of Trump and the modern GOP Party. I would also say that quoting Roosevelt to folks who don't remember him is a waste of time.

The dems have been doing this since Reagan poked fun at the word liberal.

Heed the warning or face a repeat of 2016, which absolutely NO Democrats want.

GOP's bow...but alas they never do...content to attack Democrats and aid Republicans...now who's side are they on?

our chances for success in 2018 and 2020.

sizeable majority, we are cooked and then those who are spreading this poison can spend decades in the political wilderness whining about how it is a Democrats fault as the GOP destroys the country...judicial governance.

It's raining, the sky is falling...

How about "we will protect your healthcare and SS " for the message.

Fair elections

Equality under justice

Environment

Anti plutocratic rule

Free and open internet

Free education

Forgiveness of debt arranged on the behest of corrupt corporatism.

Break up of monopolies

Universal health care

To name a few ideas of merit.

It doesn't work that way.

Your posts in this thread have my attention. Let’s stop speaking in generalities and instead offer up thoughtful, well-informed strategies for moving forward.

Assume you’re the leader of this party. Where are we going and how do we get there? Enroll me (and others) in your vision.

opinions and use it to our advantage via a 50 state Dean like strategy...candidates are sought in all 50 states...candidates that can win in that particular state. You can't run a super liberal in WVA for example. You have to seek the right candidates...and you have to make sure they have the money they need so we need some super packs that can help get our message out...not like Our revolution. In 08, we identified our voters and went out for months...we never really stopped and still had the contacts and relationships in 12...we need the same sort of thing...good ground game. We need to stop primarying sitting Dems and unseat Republicans...more voter registrations...and for that we will need legal teams in Trump's America to help us. We also need to stop attacking the Democratic Party...that has done more to make us lose than any other action. The old we can reform and fight Trump bullshit...we can't do both...and when we trash the party, we drive voters away.

Thanks for responding to my questions up-thread. I'm firmly with you regarding the big tent, continuum of opinion/thought, and strategic regional candidacies (to a point). How true that resources can't be wasted - and that the ground game is essential. There are a lot of us who think similarly.

As an individual, I'd say I'm a very progressive liberal voter. I consider some issues non-negotiable (woman's right to choose, LGBTQI human rights - to name two). There are also several visionary (aka: "socialist" and FDR inspired) issues I strongly support. Consequently, I get to struggle with the political question: Would I rather be right or would I rather get results? Strategically, results is the better option but I'm not always happy about it. C'est la vie. I find that I can work for a systemic "awakening" and be a pragmatist when it's required. This is something else many of us have in common.

And where to from here? I think our goal is to create "a better now". Each day, each week - better.

and that is a good thing

have we seen on DU that it is terrible to demand any lockstep loyalty to the party?

But what else?

Try reading the 2016 Democratic Party platform (It's a 55 page pdf)

http://tinyurl.com/y9envxyp

That's what we stand for, that's the fucking vision. Stop buying into RW criticisms of our party, they aren't honest or correct.

I defy anyone to read that document and tell me with a straight face that they don't know what the party stands for.

Gee, who could they possibly hire? I don't know, maybe George Lakoff, who's been writing books about the value of framing the issue for over 10 years now, but the dems still don't get it. A Better Deal. Really? I wonder how much the dems paid for that crap slogan? A lot of people vote on emotions, not intellect. The repubs are better at appealing to emotion. The dems think, "People will read our platform & see that it is better for them." No, people won't. They will listen to the ads on TV, the network pundits, & they will be influenced emotionally.

Dem leadership needs to read Lakoff's book, "Moral Politics."

You can link to the party platform all you want, but if the average person on the street doesn't know what the dems stand for, then the dems need to step up their game.

A Better Deal.

Read Moral Politics, then we'll talk.

My original post talked about framing issues & why it's important & sourced where I got that info. All you've done is criticize my responses & not offered any input of your own.

At least we agree that there is no point in talking.

Buh bye.

I don't disagree regarding the platform. And I never said what I think about the discussion that was had. I just asked folks to watch the video and then give their thoughts.

It seems the problem is getting the message out in an effective manner, because telling people to "go read the platform" isn't going to work. It just isn't. Most people lack the time and inclination to do that. Dems have long had a messaging problem. That's partly due to Democratic positions being more nuanced than Republican positions. Media consolidation in the hands of a few giant profiteers is another barrier.

And something must be done to inspire greater turnout, particularly among youth (millennials constitute the largest bloc of voting-age groups). There is a massive power imbalance in spite of Republicans being batshit crazy, and it threatens our very survival (I don't think I'm being overly dramatic either...those wingnuts will destroy us all). They have the White House, the US House, the US Senate, a clear majority of governorships and a clear majority of state legislative bodies. We can't ignore that or assume Democrats can afford to just keep doing what they've been doing.

They were lamenting the infighting that has plagued us since the primary.

If what you are complaining about is insuffient "messaging," which is very different than saying the party has no message or no vision, then say so in your OP.

If you think that the Democratic Party needs a more zippy catch phrase to get its message and vision across, how about you offer one up?

All I did was post a link to a video with the title that was given on the site, asked people to watch and give their thoughts. That's all I had time to do at the time, and I didn't wish to influence the discussion. I just wanted to read what people thought about the discussion after watching the video...again, that was quite clear from "Watch colon link" followed by "Thoughts?"

I put the title in quotation marks because that's what you do when using someone else's words (in this case, probably a producer of the show or some other MSNBC employee). I never mentioned Joy Reid or attributed the video title to any specific person, as I don't know who wrote it.

sort of thing.

Democrats have unanimously stood against the repeal of healthcare. They have opposed so called tax reform. They fight daily for the protection of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and against corporate malfeasance. Yes, they fight against Trump but it’s because Trump is dangerous not because he is of the opposing party.

And if republican unity is the gold standard-look what that has brought us. White supremacy, environmental disaster, plutocracy, and a madmam for president.

The fatal flaw of Democrats-they won’t push back against this shit .

here is what Democrats stand for. It’s not a secret.

Affordable healthcare for all. Period.
Common sense gun control because you don’t need an assault rifle to kill a deer.
Immigration reform.
Equal pay for equal work.
A woman can be trusted to make her own healthcare decisions.
Sex education reduces unintended pregnancies.
Love is color blind and gender neutral.
Global warming is not a Chinese hoax even though Trump has more chins than a Chinese phone book. (Was that racist or just a clever play on the word chin being Chen is the 5th most common Chinese surname? Actually it was a joke about Trump being a fatass which has nothing to do with global warming unless you count the amount of gas Trump releases from his fat ass daily. Surely there is a scientist who can tell us what harm that is causing. You know what? Never mind. Just get us back into the damn Paris Climate Agreement. That’s what I meant to say, really. )
Happy Holidays is a lovely thing to say to someone when you want them to have a Happy Holiday.
Every child should have access to a quality education.
College should be affordable.
Coal is stupid. (see Chen reference above)
Slavery was bad.
Nazi’s are not fine people.
Trump is a moron. (Which makes Rex Tillerson an honorary Democrat)

Last edited Thu Nov 2, 2017, 10:38 AM - Edit history (1)

I quoted here: https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029783524

instead of carping from the sidelines. Self government means everyone getting involved. Not sitting there and complaining those willing to do the work are not good enough.

...Hillary and Bernie had great messages... Stronger Together, diversity... socio-economic rights for all Americans! Add a sensible foreign policy and get Democrats to stick to the messages.



...but, remember, none of it will work if they keep our majority from voting.

On Russian bot talking points.

That tinfoil hat might be too tight.

What does that have to do with Russian bots? Are you saying she had on panelists who are Russian bots? Are you saying she was forced by Russian bots to have that discussion on her show?

Let's not lose our grip on reality the way so many Republicans have.

When someone called it a Russian bot talking point, you angrily asked if Joy Reid and her panelists were Russian bots. Thus, you implied that quote was made by Joy Reid and her panelists.

...a point of discussion since well before anyone had heard of Russian bots. Will Rogers for cryin' out loud had a famous quote about the lack of organization in the Democratic Party.

Secondly, the poster just mentioned Russian bot talking points and I don't know if that's a reference to the headline or statements made during the discussion.

Thirdly, the headline was probably written by a producer of the show or other MSNBC employee. If you think that person is a Russian bot or has been influenced by Russian bots, then so be it.

Lastly, I just wanted to have a discussion about the discussion. Enough already about the headline.

The clickbait headline doesn't describe the discussion.

I'm still not sure who the Russian bot is in all this. Is it one of the panelists? Is it the MSNBC employee who wrote the headline over which you are obsessing?

Headlines never "describe," per se, a 10-minute discussion. They can't. It's just a headline/topic title.

Joy Reid is good at ripping such garbage apart. Your OP makes it sound like she said it instead of assailed it.

Again, all you had to do was include the subheadline for it to not be misleading:

It was simply the title of a video that I wanted folks to watch and then comment on.

Even if I had noticed that subheading, which I didn't, it wasn't necessary...nor did I have time. I was on a break at work and just wanted folks to watch the video and comment.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. We're done now. Peace.

You had plently of room in your sparsely populated text box for the full subheading. If you did not notice the subheading before, you do now, and can add it to your OP.

The infighting and Dem bashing is not a "molehill." These misleading, shit-stirring headlines hurt us. You do not need to facilitate that shit-stirring and Dem-bashing by repeating it.

I'm glad we're done now. I really do want peace.

they didn't ....why not fix your OP if it was unintentional?

And then I asked people to watch the video and give their thoughts. Period.

panel agreed...but whatever.

But we have a major election here next week.

Maybe it's only where people are wandering aimlessly?

I bet if you asked any Indivisible or 'Action' group members they would heavily skew to "What the fuck is MSNBC talking about? It's totally US against the idiots who voted for Trump".

Democrats can lead and compromise. Many bills and budgets that have passed are the result of dems coming in and pushing the legislation over the vote threshold. Even if you are in the minority, it requires coordination and compromise to have successes. Dems stood together against repealing Obamacare and thousands of dems contacted reps via phone and e-mail... we actually did have an impact.

But there's no use in sticking our collective heads in the sand.

Also, neither voter suppression nor gerrymandering are sufficient explanations for why Republicans have the White House, US House, US Senate, a clear majority of governorships and a clear majority of state legislative bodies. Gee, perhaps there needs to be a change in strategy and message.