General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy are we so quick to rush to judgement on Al Franken?
Why are we so willing to accept one woman's word on what happened?
Especially a woman who is associated with (works for) right wing media?
Franken has been caught up in the Weinstein/Moore et al tsunami of #metoo.
It's good that this rock has been turned over.
But until I see something more than an obvious gag photo, no matter if you think it's in bad taste or not, and a 'she said' to convict Franken, I'm cutting him some slack.
Everything I know and have read about him tells me he is not this guy.
Not a perv.
A decent human being.
Even his handling of this situation is just plain...decent.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It's times like these when I am really disappointed in some of my fellow Democrats.
trof
(54,256 posts)FarPoint
(12,437 posts)Feeding the media frenzy only makes the mob behavior proliferate.
rockfordfile
(8,704 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)The bots seem to be out in full-force lately.
liberal_patriot_md
(194 posts)Lets step back and look at this.
First, there is no way this is comparable to Roy Moore or Donald Trump. This was a single incident as described by one woman. Trump and Moore are accused my multiple women over a number of years.
Second, the accuser has gone from seething with rage every time she hears Franken speak or sees his face to accepting his apology immediately once he released a statement and welcomed an ethics inquiry. All in a space of less than 12 hours. And its a public statement not a personal apology.
Third, given how theyve pounced never let anyone tell you about the liberal media. Theres been no fact-checking or investigation of this accusation. Everything in the allegation has been accepted as fact even though there are plenty of areas of inquiry. Hell, a person claiming to have been the military escort for Franken has disputed the accusers account in Twitter reply - has any one followed up with him? Did anyone see anything strange on the tour? Did Franken commit this kind of behavior with any other women in this or any other USO tour? Why did she use such sensational language about grabbing her breasts when its not clear he even touched her in that photo and if he did she was wearing body armor?
Ive already seen one tweet of hers from 2011 where she has a picture of her and Franken and seems to look on it fondly - are there others? Has anyone mentioned she is a birther? Shouldnt that impact her credibility at all?
There are a lot of unanswered questions - never mind the quotes from Hannity and the prediction from Roger Stone.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)What you say is absolutely true. That is why I can't understand so many people on this board turning against Franken. It just doesn't make sense unless they are trolling.
BannonsLiver
(16,448 posts)Didnt get a damn thing done at work today because of it.
trof
(54,256 posts)Cattledog
(5,919 posts)She said they were rehearsing a bit that called for a kiss and she was hesitant but she said OK and when they did he tongue kissed her. Not what I would call an assault. She even joked to others by calling him "Fish Lips".
Response to Cattledog (Reply #4)
Post removed
melman
(7,681 posts)Unreal.
BannonsLiver
(16,448 posts)If there werent the past association with Hannity, the fact that shes a trump supporter and the fact that everyone in the RW Twitter slimesphere knew about it before it was made public, I would be more inclined to find her credible.
This smells like a classic RW/Bannon style shiny object to deflect attention from something else. What that is who knows. But we all know theres no shortage of things they dont want us to see, or be talking about.
We have a serious spidey sense deficit here today. Thats not directed at you in any way, just a general comment.
SergeStorms
(19,204 posts)to Hannity over 10 years ago. Apparently it had been a "joke", until now. There is no "groping". Anyone looking at the photo she provided can see that. Was it in poor taste? Without a doubt.
applegrove
(118,778 posts)concerned accepted his apology. There will be an ethics committee investigation. That's enough.
populistdriven
(5,644 posts)applegrove
(118,778 posts)The woman will speak and Franken will have to answer questions under oath.
Pugster
(229 posts)I would say a majority has taken Franken's side.
trof
(54,256 posts)Works for a right wing radio talk station.
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)More than one person has suggested she has ties to Hannity and the RW, you have a problem with that?
grantcart
(53,061 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,448 posts)Response to grantcart (Reply #23)
Post removed
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Catch up Binky. Your knuckles are scraping.
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)What a kind post!
Squinch
(51,004 posts)I am crushed.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Raine1967
(11,589 posts)This is just disgusting.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Raine1967
(11,589 posts)I believe her and him --
and I accept his statement as true. As to the rest of it?
Things always come out in the wash.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)doesn't matter what the accusers motivations are if it upset them, should he resign? No, if there is not more accusers. Should he lead the way on purging this kind of crap, yes, and it seems he is willing to try.
trof
(54,256 posts)You've already convicted the guy.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)that only means being willing to listen, assess the evidence, not outright dismissal. Perhaps because I am a social services caseworker i feel this way.
rockfordfile
(8,704 posts)atreides1
(16,093 posts)All there is so far is a photo that may or may not have been a joke in which she was a participant! As for her claims as to what happened during their rehearsal, that allegation hasn't been proved beyond a reasonable doubt!
And yes her political and media affiliations do weigh on her credibility!
womanofthehills
(8,761 posts)sl8
(13,880 posts)Thanks.
Marengo
(3,477 posts)ClarendonDem
(720 posts)Already convicted Moore?
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Lisa0825
(14,487 posts)witnesses who can attest to reports of past events and behavior. BIG fucking difference.
Also, your post comes off as rather trollish.
liberal_patriot_md
(194 posts)I was about to post the exact same thing.
Lisa0825
(14,487 posts)Wednesdays
(17,408 posts)Yes, the two cases are EXACTLY the same!
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Sorry to harsh your narrative, but it hasn't.
kcr
(15,320 posts)Combined with all the Dems/DUers are all such hypocrites, BLAHHH! bullshit doesn't mean they didn't happen. Maybe your ignore list is pretty extensive, but not everyone uses them or puts the same people on them.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Nothing.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)Is that nobody on DU thinks Moore actually committed the acts of which he is accused? Or am I misreading your post?
Squinch
(51,004 posts)ClarendonDem
(720 posts)I'm just trying to wrap my arms around everyone's willingness to forgive Franken. Moore's and Trump's actions certainly sound worse, but that doesn't mean we should disregard transgressions by a Dem.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)though I do have my suspicions.
No. Trump's and Moore's actions don't SOUND worse. They ARE worse.
And no one is disregarding a transgression by a Democrat. But I'm sure you already know all that.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)And you seem to be excusing the allegations against franken.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)Squinch
(51,004 posts)was apparently in on.
More importantly, good God, man, there's an apology in which he makes it clear that, though the photo was meant to be a joke he understands that the "joke" was neither funny nor appropriate. The apology was an example, a very good instruction manual, about how men need to look at themselves when they are told they have sexually harassed a woman. This is a guy who can teach men things that men really, really, really need to learn.
And the accuser has publicly accepted his apology.
What else do you need?
renegade000
(2,301 posts)want to hold our own side accountable and to err on the side of credulity of women's stories. But yeah, we need to follow process on this (the ethics investigation, etc). If Franken really did behave quite badly, it will come out. If this is a James O'Keefe style hit job, that should become evident over time.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)Into the Moore accusations before calling for him to drop out? Christ, a bit of consistency would be nice.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)record that the photo was a joke and the woman consented. For that reason I think we should support it.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)Defending Roy Moore, or casting aspersions on his accusers. Do we only believe women who accuse a Republican of sexual assault, and assume the Dems are innocent? If so, that's pretty appalling.
LisaL
(44,974 posts)Because now anybody can be accused of anything, and apparently we have to believe it without question.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,240 posts)to accuse Franken. What's appalling is your apparent desire to paint DU'ers as hypocrites. There may be more women out there who don't seem to have so many ties to the rightwing echo-sphere as Ms. Tweeden does. I don't think anyone here is giving Franken a pass...I certainly haven't. Franken, himself, has called for an ethics investigation. Usually, there's a history with predators, and this won't be the only woman to come forward if there's been a pattern.
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)poster seems very confused that this is Democratic Underground. I have no idea why....
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)But folks here condemned Moore after the first accuser, and didn't make excuses for him, or attack the women who claimed he assaulted them. Just seems like we are willing to believe the worse in those we don't like but disbelieve those who accuse folks we do like. Very frustrating.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,240 posts)question the veracity of this rightwing talk show host considering all the claims made lately. There may be something to it, and there may not. It won't be settled at DU. Let's have the investigation (which the accuser doesn't want). Wonder why?
I'm not saying that Franken is either guilty or innocent, none of us know that. Franken hasn't spoken ill of this woman, he hasn't threatened to sue her, and he's called for an ethics investigation. Quite frankly, I think the rush to acquit Franken is just as over the top as your excoriation of DU'ers for not holding Franken to the same standard as a grown assed man who's been accused of chasing children.
Sorry, but I just found your responses OTT considering where you are.
ClarendonDem
(720 posts)The veracity of right wing women but accept that of left wing women? Do you think assaulting children is more of a crime than assaulting women?
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,240 posts)Stop twisting my words, and stop trying to acquit a reputed underage sexual predator. This is going to get very ugly, and I fear there will be more accusations and more Dem legislators may get caught up in some of it. But your OTT scoldings seem misplaced. Just sayin'.
brush
(53,845 posts)And why did Hannity say to her today when she went on his show that she had shown the photo to her years ago?
Seems to me something was planned.
Duppers
(28,127 posts)👋
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)Squinch
(51,004 posts)JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)One favorite past time of many a liberal (the especially RIGHTEOUS ones) are always the first at the barricades when it comes to going after their own. And the more public a spectacle, the better! So much so I often read "Look at MEEEEE!! I'm THE FIRST to call for the head of one of my own cause I'm so VERY RIGHTEOUS!!" lol
Nevermind Franken's apology was real and the accuser has said she doesn't want him to resign. Forget that. We're on the march!!
Sad.
mvd
(65,180 posts)It was understandable for Democratic lawmakers to respond the way they did. Sexual misconduct is never trivial. But it looks like Franken is not that kind of person and the victim accepts his apology. Not a huge problem.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Especially since the accuser accepted his apology. Really. Give us a link to all those posts that are making you so sad.
SunSeeker
(51,697 posts)She said it tonight on MSNBC on Chris Hayes' show. She also wrote a New York Times Op-Ed to that effect:
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/opinion/al-franken-sexual-harassment.html?referer=http://www.google.com/
Squinch
(51,004 posts)SunSeeker
(51,697 posts)I am very disappointed in her. Franken responded to Tweeden's allegations well. Goldberg did not.
Justitia
(9,316 posts)SunSeeker
(51,697 posts)She expressed great concern and outrage over Hillary's use pf a private email server, even though it broke no laws or rules. Gah.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)Did I IN ANY WAY mention DU or imply this was a DU thing? No, the ultra self righteous liberals can be found in lots of places. Check out "Twitter" , "Facebook" & scores of others (of which there are many).
Good to see you're willing to throw down in defense of obscure internet forum even over perceived slights. I wager you're quite the pitbull over actual criticisms of this incredibly important website.
Rock on.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)than DU! How could I not have known that???
I guess I really needed your lessons on how to correctly complain about other liberals complaining about other liberals.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)Highly annoying, self-promoting fools that tend to do more harm than good in their quest to be recognized as the paragons of virtue they think themselves to be. Found all over internet along with their enablers/defenders/admirers.
Run along little one.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Squinch
(51,004 posts)First: I haven't seen people here being willing to accept the woman's word on what happened. What I saw was people saying, "Do not dismiss her accusation out of hand." Big difference from what you describe. Then Franken himself came out with his apology in which he accepted responsibility for having done something that was inappropriate.
Second: I can't speak for anyone else, but I would not dream of dismissing an accuser out of hand because I don't like her social profile. That's what Trump Republicans do. I don't. I'm better than they are.
At this point, more of the story has come out, the accuser has accepted Franken's apology and what I see here are people mostly saying, "Ok, that's done."
But no, no one here has "convicted" Franken at any point in this.
There are times when nuance is needed, you get that, Squinch.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Since Franken has owned up, apologized multiple times, had that apology accepted with no ill will from the victim multiple times and called for an investigation on himself in an eight-hour span, it would be nice if we could turn the national attention back to Moore (who is pretty much comparing himself to Jesus and telling the world that little 14-year-old mallsluts are just begging to get jizzed by grown-assed men) and Trump (who allegedly raped a 13-year-old and threatened her and her family into silence)
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)That's the Democratic way. Heaven forbid we should let ourselves be seen as supporting a fellow Democrat. That's not how we roll.
Oneironaut
(5,524 posts)This is no more of a gag than a bully punching his or her victim and then claiming that they were just fooling around. Its humiliating...
If the woman in the picture says she was humiliated, then I believe her. I dont understand the downplaying of how serious this is. At the very least, it was sexual harassment.
Franken wasnt caught up in anything! He chose to pose for that picture. Nobody made him do it.
If were serious about gender equality and stopping harassment, then our side will have casualties too. Many will deserve it.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)this discussion who is not saying, "Hey, it was a joke, it's OK!!"
In his apology, he is saying that he's grossed out by his own action and he now understands that it's not OK even to joke about groping a sleeping woman.
Going forward, this makes him very valuable to those of us who want powerful voices against all kinds of sexual harassment. Even the "joking" kind.
Lisa0825
(14,487 posts)and that photo was NOT evidence. He was totally hamming it up for the camera. If he were really groping her, he would not have been posing for a pic.
One incident could be a lie, or one bad mistake. What I believe is 1) evidence 2) corroboration 3) a pattern of behavior.
Anyone could report anyone for anything. Someone could fall and break their arm and say I pushed them, and file charges for assault. No witnesses, no evidence, am I automatically guilty, even though I have never assaulted anyone before?
marble falls
(57,204 posts)djg21
(1,803 posts)This isnt a rush to judgment. We know with certainty that he engaged in conduct that was at best boorish, juvenile and inappropriate. The only questions remaining are the ones about his future plans and whether he can manage to rehabilitate himself. I hope he can. We all do stupid things in our lives that we later come to regret.
The photo of Franken suggests to me that he wasnt being predatory, like Moore and Trump, but instead was trying to get laughs (uncomfortable ones?) by engaging in raunchy, frat-boy humor. Franken was right when he said it was not funny.
Hopefully this is the one-time aberration and no other women (or men) come out with credible stories of sexual misconduct on the part of Franken. That would be his end.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)because he knows there is nothing else to find, and he wants it on record that this was a (creepy and misguided) attempt at humor and the accuser was in on the "joke."
Given his apology, do we really need to talk about "rehabilitation?" I don't think so. His apology made it clear to me that he now "gets it" more than about 40% of DUers get it.
Corvo Bianco
(1,148 posts)But this is new... the next few days will tell a lot. Credible stories will start piling up, or not. That's how it goes, we've seen so many of these shows.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)Polly Hennessey
(6,804 posts)We may be overreacting to any and all accusations. From the information so far it is indeed a gag photo. All the men in my family have been military. All have been in combat. My two husbands were fighter pilot and Special Forces/Army Ranger, respectively. Boy, did we do some silly things. Dont know what the answers are or what the outcome will be when we are able to stand back from all this with a clearer view. My fear is that it is edging closer to a point where the answers will slip away and, as if we had been standing still, nothing will be changed. Men do need to pay attention to their treatment of women. The worry is that men will stop being at ease around women and begin to keep us at arms length just in case their behavior is seen as akin to sexual assault.
montanacowboy
(6,101 posts)Seems like the filth known as Roger Stone was ahead of the curve
They knew it was coming
I call bullshit
SunSeeker
(51,697 posts)Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)If true, Frankens conduct does not compare to Roy Moores lifetime of predatory behavior. Prowling the malls for teen girls and comedy sketches at a USO show where Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders were featured are not the same. Stay strong Sen. Franken
yurbud
(39,405 posts)Maybe the Republicans figured that out before the Democratic leadership did.
unhip white guy
(78 posts)I wish I could do a thousand more!
OliverQ
(3,363 posts)along with the skit. Apparently Franken went too far, or did something she didn't like?
But then we see Roger Stone tweeted about this yesterday, so who tipped him off? This accuser has been on Sean Hannity 17 times. And she's already accepted Franken's apology.
It's just all bizarre. I'll be so pissed if he has to resign over this, while Trump and probably Moore get to assault children and get away with it.
tenderfoot
(8,438 posts)BTW, I don't believe the allegations against George Takei either.
womanofthehills
(8,761 posts)Lazy Daisy
(928 posts)Good people do bad things
Bad people do good things
It's easier these days to know the difference
I believe Senator Franken to be a good person.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)A disturbing trend here.
Nitram
(22,877 posts)On the contrary, I will defend him until he is proven guilty. He is a good person, an ally of women's rights, and a comedian who forsook his comedic talents for the greater good he could do as a Senator.
mchill
(1,018 posts)there are more stories. I believe this person and this person was in a position to know. Having said this, I think today's story doesn't even come close to the deeds of Ray Moore or Donald Trump. I think most of it could be viewed as a misunderstanding that should have been dealt with on the spot OR worse, spun for a political reason, though I don't like to discount these women's stories. I thought the fact that he owned up to it, I very much appreciated.
DinahMoeHum
(21,809 posts). . .and statutory rape.
mythology
(9,527 posts)Most everybody, including your post, are jumping to the conclusion that he's innocent and never did anything wrong.
Corgigal
(9,291 posts)as a woman, I should always give women the benefit of the doubt.
Then the Duke lacrosse allegations happened. That all stopped, now I don't give benefit of the doubt so quickly. However, every time a woman gets caught in a lie it puts all women in a bad light. That always pisses me off, and that crap sabotages the real victims.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)That's what the RW-ers say when someone they like is accused.