is A) it degrades women, and B) I have met frequent consumers of porn who start getting the idea that it portrays how women are and then have trouble with the reality. I always say you can tell a man who looks at a lot of porn and I've been pretty accurate in my small experience. I actually feel sorry for these guys because they keep looking for something that doesn't exist. Porn is a deal breaker for me in my middle age.

And on the other side, the same applies to some women who are constant consumers of romance novels. Although I've found that porn seems to have more of an effect than the novels, which don't seem as prevalent as they used to be.

And no, I am not saying every guy who ever looked at porn once has this problem.

real women?

And yes it gives men an unrealistic view of women.

I don't know the answer.

Isn’t this perception part of the problem?

They aren’t substitutes for real women, they are real women being degraded.

Being degraded in person or via books, magazines, videos for financial gain.
I think porn stars are a variation of prostitution.

Should men be allowed to interact with sex workers?
Where sex is a business transaction?

I don't know the answer.
Just asking questions.

(Personally I would like to see women find other employment opportunities that do not degrade and humiliate them. But I do not begrudge any woman trying to make a living the best way she can, and make no judgment about it.)

I have a problem with some of it. The feigned? humiliation and violence in some just turns my stomach.
And you can TELL BY LOOKING at a guy?
Uh-huh, and have you ever watched a horse race? Can you tell which horse will win?
Be pretty handy to do that.
I am in a long distance relationship, I love my girlfriend very much. I would never betray her trust, never.
She is too dear to me.
My thoughts on woman are the same as before the availability of so much porn.
I treat everyone with respect, I could never be "that guy" it just isn't me.
Yes, I watch porn, and am not an abuser of woman.
So, when you paint with a broad brush, you get it over things that shouldn't be painted.

I don't think porn has much to do with why men 'whip it out'. Some powerful men take advantage of their power to try to force sex on women and now with some women having attained power also men(way less of course)...at hubs job two jobs ago...a woman supervisor was very aggressively coming on to some of her workers. She was eventually let go...or allowed to resign...can't remember because this company really does take sexual harassment very seriously and they will can your sorry ass. They also don't permit racism or homophobic behavior.

That being said you have to distinguish between predators and assholes trying to get laid...they are different. Charlie Rose is a predator, and so is Weinstein...they used their power to elicit sexual favors from unwilling women. Roy Moore should not be lumped in with these types as he is a pedophile and a would be rapist. I don't think he stopped either. I think the entire Franken thing is a put up job...more so after Keith showed the pictures of the USO tour and I think her 'reward' is a book deal from Sinclair that Righty cess pool media conglomerate.

You also have to consider that sexual harassment is not rape...those of us who have come close to being raped or have been raped understand the difference only too well...yeah it is still about power...but it is different. So we should not lump all of this into one thing. Also, it is my opinion that most people have looked at porn at one time or the other. And it doesn't affect most but there are some who not content with the internet want the real thing and will try to enact their fantasies.

A man who whips out his penis like the comedian who's name escapes me might be abusing his power (which the comedian said he was) or trying to get laid (why guys think this works is beyond me), but it is not assualt in and of itself. We cannot deem all sexual behavior we don't like as 'assault' because it isn't and we will become like the little boy who cried wolf...what Moore did and what a guy who takes an officemate out after work and then tries to kiss her at the end of the evening are two very different things...Moore assaulted and attempted to rape a 14 year old and a 16 year old as well as other women. We cannot excuse such behavior by lumping it all together in one ugly package.

Blazing Saddles (hardly a paragon of virtue or comedy that stands up to modern sensibilities) had this classic scene:

Most will deal with it responsibly and without problem. Some will be a problem but they would likely have been a problem in a different way. Guns, gaming, religion, etc.

I've watched porn for 30+ years and I like to think I'm a fairly stable person, a responsible parent to two teenage girls, and a good significant other to the women I've dated over the years. All of which had their own interests in porn that were healthy and often expanded what they found themselves liking because of it.

But these days it's also disingenous to just say "porn" because it's as varied in how you can get it as anything else. There's a lot of great erotic photography porn on tumblr. There's a lot of hardcore videos. There's a lot of sites focusing on sensuality. There's also a good bit of educational material as well.

It's like saying I have mixed feelings on movies, TV, or video games. It's too broad a brush.

Just curious...Do you watch stuff that, beyond the graphic content, refers to women and girls as "bitches" and "dirty sluts"? I've seen it -- It's not uncommon.

Hell, there's a whole lot of stuff where there's no dialogue at all. There's a lot of gonzo stuff that gets attention but it's also like the squeaky wheel in that it gets attention.

I watch a good bit of amateur material put out by couples and there's a lot of fun and energy to it. I also watch some really slick production material from high-end places that go for some beautiful visuals of both genders and delivers a highly erotic experience.

With tumblr, I trade a range of pictures with a few friends and couples (back and forth between all of us) that run the gamut of interests and sparks discussions about what certain fetishes are like and that's lead to a few experimenting.

I just dislike the vilification of porn because of one genre of it. It's not just "A". It's the whole alphabet of material and there's variations within each country that produces it as well.

My point in referencing alcoholism is that for some people it becomes an addiction that they can't get past and they abuse it and it bleeds into every aspect of their lives. The majority of porn consumers are not like that - because the majority of people do consume porn.

There'the physically violent stuff which goes from whips chains and mutilation -- Yes, even as far back as 1980 those pre-internet "adult" bookstores carried whole sections devoted to torture and mutilation of women.
Feminists who dislike porn make a distinction between "erotica" and hard core porn, viewing the latter as 'anti-female propaganda and they do make a good case.
That said, it is a long and involved discussion, one I've had here ion DU in the past. I'd definitely one I'd have again, but, given the early hour, and my immediate circumstances, I'm going to postpone that for now.

Last edited Sat Nov 25, 2017, 05:39 AM - Edit history (1)

degrade men, but they seem to be consuming about it more than complaining about it.

understanding of alcoholism and think of it, as many do, as a moral failing. In my 33rd year of sobriety I find the fact people still don't get it remarkable.

Sorry about the lecture.

There's a categorization of porn addiction that's just like any other addiction that consumes people. I, in no way, said ANYTHING about a moral failing. As a son of an alcoholic believe me, I fucking know.

die, I seem to have missed that.

http://www.adultchildren.org/

Maybe I should have aligned it more with gambling but I'll still stand by the fact that there's a segment of people that can get addicted to it like anything else and it'll be detrimental to them and others in a huge way.

Alcohol addiction seems to be the quintessential example of addiction, right or wrong. And hopefully most of us know by now that alcoholism is a disease, nothing to do with morality or character.

Many congratulations on your 33 years of sobriety, that is a most excellent achievement!

Buttons are getting pushed.

There is going to be a lot of tough dialogue, emotions all over the map.

Thanks for the link.....

Biggest psyop in history.

And in our faces.

I think if Putin is behind the sexual harassment buttons being pushed, it is going to backfire. American women are going to use it to change the world for the better.
American woman are different from other women on the planet.

The worst case is far worse than we are contemplating at this moment. I know a woman about the age of my daughters who grew up under Communism. She would come home from school and tell her grandmother about the propaganda she learned, like how the Russian army saved her country. Her grandmother told her, "When the Germans were here if they needed a spoon they knocked on the door asked for one politely and returned it. The Russians broke down the door, raped the women and kept the spoon." Her grandmother is still alive, 95 years old and survived it all.

I hope everything he has done to the US backfires and hurts him.

that would imply I could have drank responsibly. That went out the window, in my case, with the very first drink I ever took. I don't abuse alcohol anymore (9 years last Monday) because I don't drink.

I believe, that porn can be an addiction as well. And for those struggling with porn, it is even harder for people to believe that it is something more than a moral failing.

porn cannot be addicting.

An over-exaggerated sense of self-importance and a distorted view of reality makes men whip it out. I don't think porn causes these things. There is something deeper in the psyche that causes this.

act out non-consensual sexual fantasies against innocents are sick people. Every human being has fetishes and sexual fantasies. Some can be acted upon in consensual sexual situations, others cannot under any circumstance aka roy moore et al. Consensual sex is the key here to me. Porn sickens those already at risk to be a sexual predator or rapist/abuser. To men, in all cases, CONSENSUAL agreement by both parties in ANY ADULT sexual relationship/situation is key. To me, that is always the rule to be observed.

Nailed it

have seen quite a bit of porn, and it has changed expectations (and the realities) of sex.

I don't know what to make of it. Vaginoplasty is one consequence. But others include 'performance' expectations. Teens/young adults are more pressured into sex that used to be 'just' for porn.

I suppose some people could argue that some of this is good - but as the mother of a teen, I worry for her and want her to feel empowered. Many girls (and boys) have expectations put on them that is NOT empowering - and unhealthy (IMO).

Porn culture has so invaded our lives, that in fourth grade (when my daughter still wanted to believe in Santa) she was approached by a girl - who went to all of the girls in class - and said: "You swallow" or "You don't swallow."

Everyone BUT my daughter knew what that meant.

According to the right wing nut jobs. I guess we can adopt more of their agenda since everyone has given up. So yeah porn is evil, let's ban it and then erect statues to Jerry fucking Falwell

There's no nuance for many, just black and white, a binary response to it.

But I'm still laughing about being chided for taking my kids when they were under thirteen to see a PG-13 movie. It was like I had done something unspeakable.

because one of the things that the Norse gods brought up in a quick joke was the word orgy. And someone was there with their 13 year old kid who had asked their parent what an orgy was.

Which left me laughing because I took my 8 year old to see Iron Man and the Star Trek reboot when they came out as her introduction to grown-up movies and part of my life as I do film criticism and the like. So she's had a solid track of film from early on and it's made her a strong debater in high school now because she's been exposed to a lot as we break down film heavily afterward in a lot of ways.

Back in the early 80's I think it wasn't until junior high that I started really recognizing more "adult talk" among friends, but that was partially because I was in a geeky set and kind of walled off from it.

Folks have been making these dumb arguments since the beginning of movies.

Never have, so it won't affect me at all. And i then guess that means i don't know enough about it to opine on how it affects men in general.

Just personally, i have no interest in it. Nothing morality based. Just don't care about it.

Women and Men, in fairness, but holding up standards that real life people around us can't live up to.

The counter problem though is that when you start talking about the negative impact porn has on folk, it can lead to a discussion of censor ship - which many people would be opposed to.

Bryant

My ex-sister-in-law likes it.

A very outdated one, in fact.

Vanity? Narcissism?

It's something that they enjoy, that makes them feel good, that tickles a particular fetish. They want to share something that they feel very positive about.

Moral hall monitors have been making these arguments for the better part of a century. They did it to comic books, rock and rap music, Dungeons and Dragons, video games, Pokémon, and, yes, porn.

If you want to talk about how the industry treats women, that's one thing. But I don't think you're going to get very far with the premise "consuming porn turns men into exhibitionist assholes".

I suspect conformity plays a much larger role in pushing product trends than advertising does. But still, the comparison is apples to oranges. Advertising is a deliberately persuasive media. It is crafted with the explicit intent to convince you of something. Comic books, video games, and movies are primarily entertainment crafted for escapism.

Like I said, people have been pushing these notions for decades and have yet to show any credible evidence that consuming entertainment turns people into satanists, witches, school shooters, rapists, or whatever our boogeyman of the week happens to be.

When women were treated as equals; never harassed, demeaned or abused and men never whipped it out without permission.

You're being sarcastic?....Nice touch. Not.

But you apparently missed my entire point...

I am happy to talk porn and it’s pros and cons.

But that is not what the OP did. It tried to tie porn to shitty behavior in men. In my opinion that is giving those men an out. Or an excuse.

Men have treated women like shit for eons. It has nothing to do with porn.

the controlling types, and the narcissists.

and if I "missed your point," it may be because you didn't communicate it very well.

As for attempting to "tie men to shitty behavior in men", apparently you're unaware of the studies that have done just that.

Porn is a Billion dollar a year industry ,-- One doubts a minor
matter like the lives of women poses a serious threat to it..

Saying “I don’t like porn because it objectifies women” is like saying “I don’t like art because I don’t relate to cubism”. Porn is a generic term for a range of products; some objectifying, some empowering, some produced by and for men (including gay porn), some produced by and for women. Some is just people who have natural, ordinary sex without any of the cliches or “money shots” because they got off on having people watch them (see Cindy Gallop’s MLNP.TV). And blaming pron for some people’s behavior is the equivalent of blaming alcohol for the handful of people who drink excessively and then drive a car.

by objectifying them, is just a matter of "taste" that, while not necessarily shared, should be respected?....Wow.

I don't think I've seen a more egregious expression of Male Privilege on this board...

Somehow, it’s only sex that folks come here to complain about.

and that mistreatment is frequently eroticized, It's all part of the same system of abuse.

Treating anyone as an object is, by it"s definition, mistreatment as it dehumanizes them and porn typically goes beyond that starting point.

Russia and the countries of the former Soviet Union and eastern Europe are major centers for the production of porn, and yes, I'd wager at least some of the women in those films are there not necessarily because they want to be, but are being exploited by a pimp or slaver. Especially the violent "gang bang" videos in which women seem to be in actual physical pain.

I wouldn't necessarily make this same assumption about porn produced in the US or western Europe, though I also wouldn't preclude the possibility.

So I'd say it depends on who exactly is producing the porn.

You'd see way way more of it.

Just saying.

I think the much bigger problem is that we live in a society where damn near everything is sexualized. Take a couple of days and make it a point to notice how much sex is used in marketing, for example.

A commercial where a scantily clad woman is moaning while eating a hamburger, while she drips sauce down her cleavage, which the camera zooms in on. A commercial where a woman is showering and acting like she's having a physical reaction from the shampoo? It's pervasive and blatant. Look at TV, movies.

It's powerful, subtle, or oftentimes not so subtle, messaging that signals acceptability.

They are intended to lodge in your memory, so mission accomplished!

Those Carls Jr commercials are widely mocked and heavily criticized for the exact exploitative imagery that you describe. Nevertheless, you remember them, which is proof that they worked as intended.

And those "totally organic" commercials for Herbal Essences ran in the 90s--an eternity ago in terms of commercial advertising--and the fact that you remember them so vividly is likewise proof that they worked as intended.

Sexuality has been demonstrably a part of advertising for at least several millennia because it is demonstrably effective.

that's why sex is so widely used as a marketing tool. It sells. We absorb the message, whether willingly or unwillingly.

The hamburger commercials angered and disgusted me, and they still do. I didn't appreciate having to race over to change the channel, or turn the TV off so my kids didn't see. Those were beyond the pale.

I don't remember the shampoo brand, but I saw it just this year. Very recent. But to your point, how many thousands of people made the connection between "totally organic" and totally orgasmic without actively realizing it?

Things will never change until the message changes, and I don't see that happening. I could be wrong. The blatant sexism in the ads from the '40's and 50's isn't widely acceptable now, at least not openly. But it took a long time to improve.

I read an article about those Carl's Jr. commercials, and a male quoted in the article stated that the ads were approved by a female in the company, the wife of someone powerful, can't remember who it was. What's wrong with any woman who would green stamp ads like those?

From cracked.com:
You Can Go Ahead And Be Offended By Carl's Jr's New Ads The language is a little raunchy, so beware!

Here's an excerpt:

The Carl's Jr. "sexy" ads weren't the idea of some slimy millennial playing newfangled video games with his dick. It was actually the brainchild of their 66-year-old CEO, who famously defended the ads in the most assholish way possible.

isn't it? Talk about moral rot.

I love Cracked!

LONG before porn became a thing.

L O N G before porn became a thing.

It would be fascinating to study this (all seriousness).

Id like to compare the whole evolution from the 50s - 60s - 70s - 80s etc. What were/are the trends in terms of fantasy etc?

I for one think the "old days" (80s etc) were much more "fun" with cheesy plots. And while maybe not totally realistic - there wasn't as much(?) of the "stunt - ***cking" of the current stuff.

Much of the current stuff is BORING in it's formula, pace, and lack of fantasy. Just BANG!!! BANG!! etc.,

But what do I know...

action movies and don't go on a shooting spree.

FWIW Women consume porn as well.

There's lot of really nasty stuff from parts of the world where people are desperate to do anything to live another day.

In honor of thanksgiving or something?

Don't like it, don't watch it. The studios I worked with offered some of the best work environments I have ever had (I'm nearly 50 now).

as the romance genre often gets mentioned in the same breadth with how awful it is with what it does for women:

Link to tweet

There is literally no critique you can throw at the romance genre that it long since hasn't deconstructed with more nuance than you can dream.

That's the real annoying thing about outsiders. They're showing up to a 400 level class with 3rd grade criticism.

I believe it is derogatory to women, gives men and boys and entirely unrealistic view of sex and is harmful to relationships.

I'd rather have a consenting adult female with me. Just my $0.02.