Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Soph0571

(9,685 posts)
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 08:32 AM Nov 2017

People are furious with the New York Times over their normalised profile of a Nazi



A New York Times profile on a white nationalist has drawn criticism from those who say the feature normalised his beliefs.

The piece titled A Voice of Hate in America's Heartland focused on 29-year-old Tony Hovater from Ohio, who is described in the piece as a Donald Trump supporter, a "far-right extremist" and a "Nazi sympathizer next door."

Although the article doesn't condone his lifestyle choices, the article has been lambasted for potentially making Hovater's views appear more normal and everyday.

Hovater is a founding member of the Traditionalist Worker Party, one of the groups that were involved in the violent clashes in Charlottesville in August and has also taken part in a "White Lives Matter" rally.

Given the uneasy political climate of 2017 and the rise of racism in America, people have taken exception to the New York Times piece.


[link:https://www.indy100.com/article/new-york-times-people-furious-twitter-nazi-white-nationalist-tony-hovater-ohio-racism-america-8076411|
36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
People are furious with the New York Times over their normalised profile of a Nazi (Original Post) Soph0571 Nov 2017 OP
I thought it was going to be about Stephen Miller. Fake news! nt Buns_of_Fire Nov 2017 #1
In order to understand the mentality of American Nazis, you need to understand no_hypocrisy Nov 2017 #2
Then why did the ADL blast it? tenderfoot Nov 2017 #3
Not so much sensitive as short-sighted. no_hypocrisy Nov 2017 #5
This message was self-deleted by its author tenderfoot Nov 2017 #6
Here's another "Short-sighted" opinion from a Bosnian tenderfoot Nov 2017 #7
+1000 paleotn Nov 2017 #13
It actully has been a pattern for sometime throughout the news industry. They were normalizing this still_one Nov 2017 #15
I'm planning a class on the rise of the Third Reich. hedda_foil Nov 2017 #18
Hedda, I'd be delighted to share some titles, but give me a little time no_hypocrisy Nov 2017 #20
You're right. The big question is how he got to that point in the first place. hedda_foil Nov 2017 #25
A starter's list no_hypocrisy Nov 2017 #34
Replying to this to save this list for myself. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2017 #35
This one just came out. no_hypocrisy Nov 2017 #23
Thank you. I have it bookmarked to read. hedda_foil Nov 2017 #24
No! All you need to do to understand the mentality of American Nazis maxrandb Nov 2017 #10
No, it was normalizing him; the writer even admitted he didn't understand the Nazi muriel_volestrangler Nov 2017 #17
This is the USA loyalsister Nov 2017 #21
In normal circumstances, I'd agree Blue_Tires Nov 2017 #36
Michael Brown did not steal cigarettes...I have a subscription to the New York Demsrule86 Nov 2017 #4
I understand nazis. They ARE FUCKING NAZIS ismnotwasm Nov 2017 #8
... blogslut Nov 2017 #9
+1000 paleotn Nov 2017 #12
That! nt Soph0571 Nov 2017 #26
Rise of racisim in America?? paleotn Nov 2017 #11
Yet another Proof of Godwin's Law in action... Wounded Bear Nov 2017 #14
"Preaching the gospel of white natonalism" is just protected free speech in a nation that forgot to Fred Sanders Nov 2017 #16
AMJoy had a good segment on this story Gothmog Nov 2017 #19
Actual Nazis WERE normal people. alarimer Nov 2017 #22
That is the important message in the NYT article. LAS14 Nov 2017 #27
I dont know what you do about people like that alarimer Nov 2017 #31
you nailed it, most Americans would be Good Germans steve2470 Nov 2017 #30
Most did nothing about all the lynchings by the KKK alarimer Nov 2017 #32
excellent point about Jim Crow! nt steve2470 Nov 2017 #33
AM JOY 11,26,17 NYT PUBLISHES PROFILE ON NAZI SYMPATHIZER Gothmog Nov 2017 #28
kick and rec! nt steve2470 Nov 2017 #29

no_hypocrisy

(46,119 posts)
2. In order to understand the mentality of American Nazis, you need to understand
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 09:32 AM
Nov 2017

their "values", their priorities. It doesn't mean you endorse or agree with them.

Does anyone remember a Debra Winger/Tom Berrenger movie in the late 80s called Betrayed? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betrayed_(1988_film) It was about an undercover FBI agent going into the American heartland to collect evidence against a RW, white-supremacy group that is suspected of murdering a Jewish radio talkshow host (reminiscent of Alan Berg). http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/talked-to-death-19850131 In the movie, it blends the white supremacist culture with small town frustrations and Christian values. Even Debra Winger got confused and wanted to be released from her assignment.

The Times wasn't "normalizing" Hovater or anyone like him. It was just reporting.

no_hypocrisy

(46,119 posts)
5. Not so much sensitive as short-sighted.
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 09:56 AM
Nov 2017

Being from a Jewish background, I've spent a lot of time researching the Weimar Republic in Germany (pre-Hitler), the German Depression, the rise of the Third Reich, and the Nazi Years. Some of the most enlightening information came from dissertations that highlighted the ordinary, common Germans who supported Hitler. If you haven't read it yet, I recommend They Thought They Were Free by Milton Mayer. Here's an excerpt: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

You will see parallels between Germany then and Ohio today.

In order to minimize any spread of influence by people like Tony Hovater, you need to understand what makes them tick and to offer better options to them.

Getting information is not equitable with "normalizing".

Response to no_hypocrisy (Reply #5)

still_one

(92,217 posts)
15. It actully has been a pattern for sometime throughout the news industry. They were normalizing this
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 11:49 AM
Nov 2017

when Obama was President, going out of their way to give a voice to those who said President Obama wasn't a citizen. Is it any wonder why 25% of the populous still believes that President Obama isn't an American?

All through 2016 one needs to ask why the media in general lowered the bar for trump

CNN and others were regularly giving a voice to the extremist views of racists and bigots, which is "legitimizing" those view points. Perhaps the worst example was when CNN had as part of an actual discussion if "Jews were really people":

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a50906/are-jews-people-was-a-real/

It is interesting that CNN and other outlets are now exercising more critique toward trump and his administration that was mostly missing throughout 2016. No doubt some of that is due to trump's characterization of CNN as "fake news", but I think much of it is because they realized they dropped the ball.

hedda_foil

(16,375 posts)
18. I'm planning a class on the rise of the Third Reich.
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 01:50 PM
Nov 2017

It's been a number of years since I researched the subject. What reading would you recommend? I'd really appreciate your recommendation.

Hedda

no_hypocrisy

(46,119 posts)
20. Hedda, I'd be delighted to share some titles, but give me a little time
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 03:19 PM
Nov 2017

to go to my library. It's got a variety of books that helped me better understand what happened.

To get you started, I read 1924: The Year That Made Hitler.
https://www.amazon.com/1924-Year-That-Made-Hitler/dp/0316384038
It came out this year or last year. Well worth the read. (If you wait til 1933 to start the story, it's too late.)

See you later!


hedda_foil

(16,375 posts)
25. You're right. The big question is how he got to that point in the first place.
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 04:05 PM
Nov 2017

I'll definitely read it!

no_hypocrisy

(46,119 posts)
34. A starter's list
Tue Nov 28, 2017, 07:43 AM
Nov 2017
 

Decoy of Fenris

(1,954 posts)
35. Replying to this to save this list for myself.
Tue Nov 28, 2017, 07:55 AM
Nov 2017

Great reading list you have there and there are a few books I was unaware of. Understanding what makes Nazis the way they are is becoming increasingly important nowadays. Thanks for the compilation.

maxrandb

(15,334 posts)
10. No! All you need to do to understand the mentality of American Nazis
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 10:16 AM
Nov 2017

Is look at the Retrumplican party.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,321 posts)
17. No, it was normalizing him; the writer even admitted he didn't understand the Nazi
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 01:42 PM
Nov 2017

I recommend this article:

Since the election of Donald Trump, most of our outlets of record have sent their most intrepid reporters to find out What The Fuck Just Happened Here. Their willingness to cover previously ignored areas is laudable but they seem to have over-corrected. Thus did the New York Times publish not only a mild and slightly puzzled profile on a white supremacist fuckbag but an accompanying author’s note about the piece in which the author says that he learned exactly nothing about his subject writing it.
...
“We need to have more families. We need to be able to just be normal,” said Matthew Heimbach, the leader of the Traditionalist Worker Party, in a podcast conversation with Mr. Hovater.

Hey remember how the fucking Nazis are super normal? This is a recruiting technique. You are writing an article that serves a fucking Nazi recruiting goal. It is supremely difficult to write responsibly about fucking Nazis because you have to be aware that anything you write will add to their press clippings. “Nazis are so normal” is not a responsible storyline when you are quoting fucking Nazis talking about how being normal helps them.
...
The party, Mr. Hovater said, is now approaching 1,000 people. He said that it has held food and school-supply drives in Appalachia. “These are people that the establishment doesn’t care about,” he said.

Here again we have an instance of why you should contextualize the fucking Nazi. It’s nice enough that the fucking Nazis are doing charity work, but when you let a fucking Nazi have a national platform you do not then quote the Nazi telling the underprivileged that the fucking Nazis are the people who really care.
...
Sometimes a soul, and its shape, remain obscure to both writer and reader.

I beat myself up about all of this for a while, until I decided that the unfilled hole would have to serve as both feature and defect. What I had were quotidian details, though to be honest, I’m not even sure what these add up to.

It added up to an article full of quotidian details. That was it. That was what you had to work with. You could have framed them in a dozen useful ways: Fucking Nazis are making earnest attempts to not look like fucking Nazis, making their recruiting more dangerous. Not all fucking Nazis have a hard-luck backstory and sometimes evil is inexplicable. Some fucking Nazis are cleaning up their language and here’s how. Any number of ways you could have gone with that.

Read more at https://wonkette.com/626173/new-york-timess-nazi-profile-was-better-in-original-german#AiM9Bm3ydocp03dL.99

Before white nationalism, his world was heavy metal. He played drums in two bands, and his embrace of fascism, on the surface, shares some traits with the hipster’s cooler-than-thou quest for the most extreme of musical subgenres

If that's not normalising, what is? The writer has literally compared fascism to a wish to look cool. And they managed to understand the Nazi so little that they call him a "foot-soldier" and the co-founder of a white supremacist party in the same paragraph. But the Nazis had a wedding list, just like normal people ...

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
21. This is the USA
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 03:44 PM
Nov 2017

with a capitalist system that initially relied on the commerce of humans. Racism is "normal" because white people are still in charge largely because we have benefitted from it since the inception of this country. Separating ourselves out and defining white supremacists as a separate group ignores the continuum and the pervasiveness. As well as the nature of white supremacy as a system where white people participate when we don't acknowledge the fact that if we are white we are automatically considered superior.

Your neighbor might read white supremacist literature and cheer nazis on, and still let a person of color cut in front of them in the checkout line. The aggressive white supremacists are not the norm, but they are part of a system of white supremacy that is organic because it has been with us from the start. Abolitionists knew where their cotton came from.

I remember there was a lot of controversy over a professor who invited a white supremacist who would eventually commit a mass murder at a Jewish community center. From what I understand it is something you have to see to believe.

“One of the things I’ve found with many of these groups is that if I tell the story myself [the students] don’t believe me, they just think I’m trying to make them look bad.” https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2014/04/15/suspect-jewish-center-killings-was-guest-lecturer-missouri-state


Another striking example is the Vice video that followed a white supremacist who was at Charlotte. I found it chilling to see his sincerity and unquestioning belief that he is doing something good. Meanwhile being able to see that he is probably just an average guy in his community.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
36. In normal circumstances, I'd agree
Tue Nov 28, 2017, 03:48 PM
Nov 2017

but Nazis and Nazi-lites have gotten more than enough soft coverage in 2017...

And never forget the Times gave more fawning coverage of a Nazi than they ever did for Hillary 2016...

Demsrule86

(68,586 posts)
4. Michael Brown did not steal cigarettes...I have a subscription to the New York
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 09:53 AM
Nov 2017

Time but with their hiring of conservatives...no sure I will renew.

ismnotwasm

(41,989 posts)
8. I understand nazis. They ARE FUCKING NAZIS
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 10:10 AM
Nov 2017

I don’t give a shit if they grocery shop or have mothers or kids.

paleotn

(17,931 posts)
11. Rise of racisim in America??
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 10:40 AM
Nov 2017

...ummm....the reemergence of racism in America is more apt. Racism never went away. It just feels confident enough now, in a trumpmerica, to come out of the shadows.

Wounded Bear

(58,666 posts)
14. Yet another Proof of Godwin's Law in action...
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 11:41 AM
Nov 2017

In the US, racism is certainly still extant. It exists almost everywhere, more obvious in some places and some people than others, but it is there. Repubs, with their Southern Strategy have been stoking those fires for many years and the result is now in the White House. If you look at the time line, it is pretty inexorable.

The parallel in Nazi Germany is anti-semitism. It had existed in Europe for centuries, usually supported actively by the Catholic Church. It had softened a bit by the 20th Century, but like American racism it was still bubbling just below the surface. Hitler exploited that to seize power and enact the Holocaust, which may have been the most important item in his agenda when you think about it.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
16. "Preaching the gospel of white natonalism" is just protected free speech in a nation that forgot to
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 12:32 PM
Nov 2017

ban Nazis after fighting a world war to get rid of them.

Who will defend with their lives the right of Nazis to speak freely about their well known genocidal ideas under the tattered, unprotected banner of free speech?

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
22. Actual Nazis WERE normal people.
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 03:48 PM
Nov 2017

And are, even today. And THAT is what people are missing in all this outrage. Maybe the article wasn’t clear. Most people joined the party then because their jobs were at stake or they felt pressured to do so. Only a few were real monsters. Hence, the banality of evil.

90% of Americans THINK they would be part of the Resistance, but they are kidding themselves. They would “go along to get along” to save their own fucking necks. After all, conservative Republicans are very nearly fascists and their are millions of them.

It is dangerous to assume that every neo Nazi fits the stereotype, with swastika tattoos and shaved heads.


LAS14

(13,783 posts)
27. That is the important message in the NYT article.
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 06:13 PM
Nov 2017

You can't assume that fascism can't take route among "normal" people. It isn't "normalizing" the beliefs to describe this phenomenon. The most memorable experience for me on a recent trip to Europe was a video at the Documentation Center in Nuremberg. Several elderly people were interviewed about their teenage years in Nuremberg when Hitler was on the rise. It was clear they don't condone what happened. But when they remembered their youth there were smiles on their faces as they described how everyone felt so "together" (gemeinschaft). One woman talked about how wonderful the music was when the parades passed beneath her window, and how her mother flung open the door and offered lodging to out of towners.

It's insidious. It's scary. And we have to look at it clearly, as this article is trying to do.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
31. I dont know what you do about people like that
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 07:45 PM
Nov 2017

Who hold toxic beliefs but haven’t otherwise done anything criminal. Obviously it’s up to everyone else to challenge those beliefs, but most people find it difficult even within their own families. People tend to self-select and hang out likeminded people.

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
30. you nailed it, most Americans would be Good Germans
Sun Nov 26, 2017, 06:44 PM
Nov 2017

Last edited Mon Nov 27, 2017, 12:01 PM - Edit history (1)

That's why it can never get anywhere near that point, where you have to make a choice between being a Good German and risking your life.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
32. Most did nothing about all the lynchings by the KKK
Mon Nov 27, 2017, 10:36 AM
Nov 2017

Not necessarily because they agreed, but because their bosses, coworkers or family members were in it. And they were scared (not that I blame them). A lot of other people, farther away from where this was taking place, just shook their heads, but did nothing. That is probably the closest parallel to Nazi Germany we have- the Jim Crow South. Vast majorities of white people benefited from the system or were too scared to do anything about it.

Protests are useful when these folks decide to demonstrate. And I think pushing back against their beliefs when they dare to voice them in private is important. Beyond that, I'm not sure.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»People are furious with t...