Trump is again playing to a very small RW base...Google might help both of us understand it better...

Not just right wing ones. A nation has a right to determine where its government does its business. Th capital of Israel is Jerusalem. That is where the government sits. If someone says Jerusalem is not the capital then where is it? Is Israel the only nation on earth without a capital?

There are areas that Israel has taken by force and are the reason for the controversy.

Recognizing the change in capitol backs Israel's position over the Palestinian's. That Israel has declared Jerusalem as capitol is not controversial in and of itself.

I now have a clear picture as to why.

Even though giving Jerusalem, or part of it to Israel was not part of the UN General Assembly partition plan of 1947, it doesn't mean Israel has no legitimate claim on Jerusalem now.

Israel did not fight a war of aggression to conquer the land it took/annexed in 1967. 5 Arab neighbors - Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon, supported by Algeria, Kuwait, Morocco, Libya, Pakistan, Tunisia, Sudan, and PLO, waged a War of Annihilation against Israel. It was also basically a sneak attack, and was meant to rid the region of Israel.

The Arab attackers lost, and they lost badly, and to the victor go the spoils. In this case however, Israel only kept or annexed small areas of land, including part of Jerusalem, compared to keeping everything. It may suck for the losers but at least they got to keep their Countries. THEN, some of the same players tried to do the same damn thing in 1973, and lost.

This should never be forgotten when people talk about how mean ole Israel just took other peoples land.

With that said, I really don't know if we should move our Embassy to Jerusalem. Seems like adding fuel to the flames in regards to the Palestinian issues.

Edited for: sp/smart phone auto-correct not being smart

It certainly wont help anyone's argument if the Muslims do what donnie expects and resort to violent protest. It'll give him all the ammo he needs.

and driving out Palestinians as it creates illegal settlements.

Plus, a tiny, tiny point, but in the interest of historical accuracy, actually Israeli forces attacked first. The so-called pre-emptive self-defense move.

Glad to help you out here with the history.

I hope you're not suggesting that makes them the aggressor. When your intel assets tell you all 5 of your neighbors are about to try and kill you, you would be wise to do whatever it takes to stop it.

It wasn't a "so called pre-emptive strike" It was a pre-emptive strike. You say "so called" as if it wasn't fair or something.

They are also under no obligation to give any land back, but yet they have given some back.

Did you miss the part about about their neighbors waging a War of Annihilation against them. They weren't coming to give them a black eye or teach them a lesson. They were coming to wipe them out.

Occupying powers may not resettle their own citizens on occupied land. That is called theft.

the people of Israel live surrounded by bordering countries, with the exception of Jordan and maybe Egypt, that openly call for their destruction every day. The World Court and the UN like to gloss over the fact that in 1967 all of their neighbors tried to wipe them off the map. The World Court and the UN just wants peace in the region, and since they can't get the Palestinians to do anything peaceful or give one inch, they hope Israel will. Israel has given some land back, they have also withdrawn from some settlements, only to be met with more violence from the Palestinians.

So yes, the Israelis tell the World Court and the UN to stick it. Maybe they will play by International Law when their neighbors stop trying to kill them and stop calling for their destruction.

Funny how the World Court hasn't told America to give back our Country to the Native Americans. If they did, I doubt we would abide by their ruling. Not for the same reasons as Israel, but surely we would tell the WC and the UN to stick it.

Settlement activity has increased, as has land theft and appropriation of water access.

All part of winning hearts and minds.

Plus, there as no concept of International Law, or a World Court, ot a UN when the US was conducting its land theft and attempted genocide.

I've just heard that Sen Franken has resigned and I'm pretty torn up about it. I've said all I can say on this subject.

One thing I will note - You have had a long discussion with a new member with a low post count and have not resorted to calling me a russian troll bot, so I thank you for that. That comes from my heart, not being a smart ass.

I responded only to the content of your post. A well written post, by the way, even if we obviously disagree.

Welcome to DU, and have a good day in spite of the depressing news about Al Franken. We agree on that.

Christians, Jews and Muslims lay claim to Jerusalem. Israel can't have it all. Period.

and waged a War of Annihilation against Israel. Also, when Jordan controlled Jerusalem they gave no access to Israel. After the 1967 war, Israel gained control but kept it open to Christians, Jews and Muslims. How far backward should Israel bend to give back land they seized from countries that tried to destroy them twice in 6 years.

You either don't know your history or you do, and don't care, or you're being revisionist based on agenda, however, since you used "period" at the end of your statement, I'll back off and let you think you're right.

Those who ignore actual history win. They're not right and I will fight them every day if I have to. They should have taken the state offered 70 years ago and it's nobody's fault but their own that they don't have their own state.

Are you seriously blaming the people alive today for a bad decision made by their grandparents and great grandparents?

them from learning from their history and cutting out the violence so actually they're even worse. Call me crazy but I don't think rewarding violence is a good idea. Neither is electing a terrorist organization as your leaders. Neither is blaming Israel for all your problems when your own leaders think it's more important to buy weapons and build tunnels than take care of their own people. The only thing Palestinians are victims of is people who continue to tell them just wait a little longer, don't change a thing, you'll get that state any day now - people who use the Palestinians as pawns.

It happens every day in this Country. Everyone having anything to do with the treatment of Native Americans over a hundred years ago is dead. Everyone that had anything to do with slavery, owned slaves, or brought slavery to this Country are dead, but we are still trying to hold people, or a certain class of people accountable for it.

It is what it is. You're not implying our own Constitution could be invalid because the people that drafted it, signed it, and ratified it are dead, are you?

we have nothing to say. Check YOUR knowledge of history - and not some bullshit in the "bible".

Sitting a JFK cafe right now waiting for a connection. Infound the people frinedly courteous, generous, and mostly right wing. They were shocked that I am and my colleagues despise Trump. One even told me he thought everybody in the USA loves Trump.

And most have nothing but disdain for the Palestinians and Arab Israelis defintely occupy a lower rung on the societal ladder.

has become.

And well-reasoned arguments on this issue.

Last edited Thu Dec 7, 2017, 08:51 AM - Edit history (2)

West Jerusalem which is a relatively newer area is on the Israeli side of the green line (ie in the area that was Israel before 1967). However, there have been arguments for decades on the status of East Jerusalem, the home of about 300,000 Palestinians. To add additional complications, the walled city of antiquity is in East Jerusalem.

The UN, Europe, the Arab nations and .. past US administrations knew that Jerusalem would be the toughest issue and it was to be determined as part of a peace solution. Most plans, including the outline Kerry put out in 2016, called for BOTH the Palestinians and Israel to have their capitals in Jerusalem. A solution would be needed for the area sacred to all three religions. Obviously, a framework is easier than an actual deal.

Trump actually was very ambiguous. He did not say a UNIFIED Jerusalem - nor did he specify just West Jerusalem. So, you have people on each side - ecstatic assuming one meaning and disappointed or furious if assuming the other. In addition, it seems that the Trump administration thought Saudi Arabia was ok with it - when it seems they are not.

So, this is an action that can spark violence and accomplishes nothing real. The Knesset has long been in West Jerusalem as have other government buildings. The US embassy is still in Tel Aviv -- and they are just starting the process of picking a cite and building a US embassy in Jerusalem -- almost surely in West Jerusalem. If Trump loses in 2020 -- it is not clear it would even be built unless it is less controversial in the Middle East.

One thing that pundits have said might be hurt is the Trump administration's peace process. The thought is that making this statement means they will not be seen as honest brokers. My question is with the two people leading it, Trump's real estate layer and Jared Kushner, both being linked to large contributions to illegal settlements -- and the ambassador being to the right of Netanayahu, did ANYONE really see them as neutral or honest brokers?

One thing it might do is completely close any window that liberals hoped existed for a genuine two state solution with a viable contiguous Palestinian state. Oddly, what it might be is the first step to a binational one state -- and the fight will be whether all people have citizenship and rights.

And what they really believe. Right now, they’ve got their own internal beef in the Royal family, and they’re fighting a pretty significant war in Yemen. They’ve also got this political row with Lebanon going on.

I suspect they could really give 2 shits what happens to the Palestinians.

Not to mention, they see their Yemen and Lebanon problems as part of their fight with Iran.

No one said it has no right to a capital. Geez. It's not that simple.

to pick another city. All 3 Abrahamic religions have a thing for Jerusalem. Maybe it should be international (I've seen that proposed).

It is much more central than DC. But we have chosen DC. Israel has chosen Jerusalem as their capital and that is their choice. In 1947 the UN proposed Jerusalem as a neutral city. But the Arabs would have none of it. They seized east Jerusalem and forbid Jews and Christians from visiting holy sites. Israel took it back in 1967 and since then has allowed access to all the holy sites to the three religions. Jerusalem is where the Israeli government sits and any government which wishes to have relations with Israel should respect that.

It's kind of the whole crux of the decades long violence in that area of the world.

...symbolic, I think... not an expert. It's a "holy" place for the big three religions. When you get into the religious stuff, it's not always easy to make sense and understand the levels of concern.

gave that region to various religions as theirs. Then told them to fight over it to keep it.

Now even though teabangelicals hate Jews, they deem them necessary, according to scripture, to bring about the rapture. On that day they say Jews will convert to the 1 true religion and rapture. If not, they will burn forever in Hell.

...that most of those who are "for Israel" are not really pro-Israel. They want the "holy lands" for Israel because they believe Christians are destined to take over the entire area; at that time, Jews can convert or leave. I think most Jewish people know this - my friends do, anyway.

... "those" who are of Trump's ilk.

Not pro Jewish. Jews know the difference.

...for giving me a more simple way to make that point... that works.

truly dislike them huh. Jews killed Jesus in the outskirts of Jerusalem (Gologtha). The insane Christians have plans for Jerusalem and it don't include them.

And the fulfillment of the prophecies.

It was stated long ago that Trump agreed to help them build it.

You cannot separate the religious from the political motives here.

Following the creation of Israel, Jordan seized east Jerusalem and refused to allow Jews access to holy sites. This went on until 1967 when Israel seized east Jerusalem in the 6 day war. Since then Israel has allowed access to holy sites by Christians, Jews and followers of Islam.

for sharing this actual history. Those who expect Israel to constantly give their enemies another do-over work my last nerve. That the chances that the upcoming protests will be violent are so high, just pisses me off more They're playing right into donnie's hands.

Their game has been evident for years: illegal settlements...facts on the ground.

Yuck.

another that think Israel needs to provide endless do overs for those who seek their destruction. They should have taken the state they were given 70 years ago instead of believing their corrupt leaders who would rather buy weapons and build tunnels than take care of their people and line their own pockets. I suppose they could continue using violence, I mean, it's gone so swimmingly so far for them. Maybe if you stopped thinking of them as mindless children who have no control over their own behavior, they would be much further along. The apartheid nonsense is laughable since Palestinians sit in their house of government and all citizens vote. You have made that word lose all meaning.

.

YOU wrote. Only about apartheid and stealing land, NOTHING about how the Palestinians have worked against their own interests. Feel free to enlighten me...or not...your choice.

had their land and livelihoods stolen and destroyed.

It makes me feel such sorrow. The inhumanity.

Basically the Palestinians still want East jerusalem to be THEIR capital in a Palestinian state. Declaring the city as capital of Israel negates that possibility and appears to be taking the side of Israel. The rest of the world uses Tel Aviv for their embassies.

edited to add a link: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/05/middleeast/trump-jerusalem-explainer-intl/index.html

All of the frameworks for negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians have contained plans for both capitals to be in Jerusalem. Even John Kerry while he was Secretary of State proposed that idea.

Just listened to him talking on BBC Radio and he said that the city will never be divided now as it has always been the property of the Jewish people (not Israeli, but Jewish, his words not mine) and this step by tRump acknowledges that. When asked about the 1/3 of the city that are Palestinian, he brushed that aside as unimportant and repeated that it was given to the Jewish people. He also said every faith is welcome, but denied that anyone had lost residency papers when asked pointedly about those reports from a BBC person on the ground.

Overall, it would appear that the US is no longer an even-handed broker in the discussion, having unilaterally chosen a side in this major debate. Maybe it will work out, but there is already a call for another intifada. Not the best time to book a tour of the Holy Land.

The way I understand it is basically to just get in the middle of Muslim vs. Jewish vs. Christians in the area but if someone can explain more that would be helpful too.

expert at all. That's just the way I see it too. And when you get into religious stuff, it gets super-emotional.

have no choice but to resort to violence (no surprise cole wont even mention this) at this stunt. Heaven forbid they protest peacefully and prove donnie wrong about them.

Israel says to the US regime government, if you do this your embassy is not welcomed?

He used to be pretty good at analyzing the internal politics of Arab governments despite his fanatic hatred of Israel, but I thought he lost all credibility when he started raving that the real reason that Saudi Arabia opposed Iran's expansionist activities in the region was that they were conspiring with Israel to help them dominate the region.

But that gets in the way of greed and nationalism and racism.

Peace on earth...good will to ALL men (and women).

a construction project for him. He has no concern for the history or the people or even endangering Americans. It's just a way to have a construction project in the form of building a new embassy in Jerusalem. Construction contracts for his pals.

Excellent piece.

And Democrats in general.

Do not listen to his garbage.

It will certainly foment further unrest and violence in the area (yeah, I know). When more violence breaks out, the Israeli government will almost surely overreact - as they almost always do - and in this instance, there's a very real possibility the violence will spiral out of control. Based on the Trump administration's recognition that the violence is now happening in Israel's capital (and not just a major city riven by competing claims), Netanyahu is going to call on the U.S. to support whatever he decides to do. Will we be able to resist? Will the U.S. be regarded as an honest broker of disputes in the area, now that we have sided with Israel? And not just Israel as a nation, but their hardest hard-liners?

This will damage U.S. prestige, hurt our ability to influence foreign affairs, weaken our credibility, and provide an opening for another major power (hint: It's toward the north, rhymes with "Gusha" and has a leader whose name rhymes with "gluten" ) to increase its presence and influence in the Middle East.

the hardliners will say see i told you that you could not trust america....they will turn their back as back Israel


and they will be right

should not attempt to change its character .

It is a part of the effort to change the racial mix of the city over time.

Trail of tears?

forcible removing one group and replacing another. This is more subtle.

Starve them, move them, kill them.

By any means necessary.

peace negotiations for decades maybe forever.

At most, it is something where i have to try very hard not to roll my eyes, because I really do not want to offend anyone who sees the world this way. It is a bunch of pretend stuff about how one spot of the earth and some people are different or better or chosen or something. Makes no sense in this day and age to make a political issue out of it, when we need to be concerned with the shape of the ENTIRE planet and anyone who is born here is just as special as anyone else!

If anyone following these religions wants to continue these beliefs, that is fine, but I really wish they would wake up and take a look at the entire planet and see that it is all important and when this stuff makes the front burner we are not taking care of what really needs taking care of.

(My $.02)

and have been fighting about it for thousands of years

Last edited Wed Dec 6, 2017, 10:57 PM - Edit history (1)

And the city belongs to Palestine. According to International Law, it is occupied land that belongs to Palestine.

Just some facts, and not intended to start an all out brawl here and now on a message board.

but this has an ugly, "America is for White Americans!" -vibe to it...


Well, to me at least...

Paris wasn't seized and annexed. It isn't also reasonably claimed by the Germans or Belgians.

At the VERY least you must recognize the political complexities at play here. But fuck peace, I guess.

Like when the Jordanians occupied the land, Jews were forbidden to pray at their holiest site (and still can't pray on the Temple Mount without risk of beatings or arrest). How about the FACT that Jerusalem isn't nearly as important in Islam as it is in Judaism (not even mentioned in the Koran). How about the FACT that congress already made this declaration in 1995. How about not being able to expect the Palestinians to protest peacefully and instead play right into donnie's hands? How about those FACTS?

have a construction project for $$$. There doesn't seem to be much actual policy behind it. There's money to be made in construction there, and everything else is inconsequential and not really an issue for him, except to rile people up as a distraction.

Maybe you could link to the "international law" that gives Jerusalem to the Arabs.

I'll wait.

Congress already did it in 1995. It's simply the move of the embassy which donnie STILL isn't doing. He's just trying to rile up his imbecile base with this. It wont help if there is any violence in response to the declaration - it'll play right into donnie's hands.

And the reason Trump is for it is to please his base of the super hardcore apocalypse worshipping ring of Christianity. They believe that Isreal holds the key to bringing about the Rapture.

The difference being that while both the Democratic Party and the repubs asserted that Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of Israel, presidents of both parties always backed away from actually doing anything.

Democratic Party platforms from 2004-2016:

The 2016 party platform: "While Jerusalem is a matter for final status negotiations, it should remain the capital of Israel, an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths. Israelis deserve security, recognition, and a normal life free from terror and incitement."

The 2012 platform: "Jerusalem is and will remain the capital of Israel. The parties have agreed that Jerusalem is a matter for final status negotiations. It should remain an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths."

The 2008, platform: "Jerusalem is and will remain the capital of Israel. The parties have agreed that Jerusalem is a matter for final status negotiations. It should remain an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths."

The 2004 platform: "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and should remain an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths."

Didn't realize that was the case.

A tenant of trumps hard core religious right followers. Check wikipedia for Rapture & American Christian Fundamentalism.

Both Jews and Muslims claim Jerusalem as a religious capital. Chosing a side will enrages the other side.

Not rocket science.

Jews. Palestinian clients explained to me many years ago that a sacred city should not be a capitol for Muslims, Jews or Christians.

Historically the West laid claim to Jerusalem and the whole basis of the Crusades was to take back Jerusalem. So, it's a bitter pill of Western domination to see Israel claim it for it's capitol. The Pope is also upset. In recent years Christians and Jews in US are united in favor of Israel and there is significant trust, but not so in Europe.

Jerusalem is an emotional touchstone. Trump is basically tossing aside the emotions of the other parties, especially Muslims. Like US running pipeline on sacred native burial ground but there are many more Muslims in the world to put up resistance. Things will get ugly. The religious people of the world do not want to see bombs in their holy city.

We disregard their emotions at our peril.

But some people have problems with Jewish history so we try not to upset them.

Same reason we don't want people drawing cartoons of mohammed.

It upsets people .

"mount" so, you know, Armageddon and the coming of heaven on earth. Do you remember the big prayer orgy photo in The Oval Office with all the evangelical's greedy thieving greasy hands being laid on their Orange Jesus?
They have advocated this for decades. What is so absurd is that Christ is the Christian Messiah. Jews do not believe he is a Messiah. Ignorant bigots can't comprehend irony.

The Christians are closer to being rapture now. The jeebus sites are all a gaga now as the prophecy has been fulfilled by their messiah tRump.

This is about Israel formally annexing the parts of East Jerusalem that they occupied in 1967. It's about Israel fulfilling its absurd Biblical warrant to "redeem" all of the Holy Land, and, of course, it's about Israel having total ownership of the Old City, which contains some of the chief holy sites of both Christianity and Islam.