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Atticus

(15,124 posts)
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:06 AM Dec 2017

Imagine---a football game, in which the Blue team did its best to play by conventional rules.

The Red team, though, followed no rules:. they simply did whatever it took to move the ball forward and score points. They carried clubs, brass knuckles and stun guns when they took the field and, if by some chance a Blue player was about to score, they had snipers concealed in the stands to shoot them down.

The refs? They were well paid to look the other way and occasionally penalize the Blues.

And, the truly amazing thing? The spectators remained just spectators and even conducted lengthy panel discussions about "Is this ok?" and "Who will win if this game continues?"

Of course, the above is just fiction. We wouldn't really allow anything like that to happen.

Right?

61 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Imagine---a football game, in which the Blue team did its best to play by conventional rules. (Original Post) Atticus Dec 2017 OP
What do we do? rainin Dec 2017 #1
Are your suggesting that ONLY Al Franken was "fighting back"? brooklynite Dec 2017 #7
Did we stab someone else in the back last week? rainin Dec 2017 #9
Would you at least agree the two years were indispensible? n/t rzemanfl Dec 2017 #19
What two years are you talking about? brooklynite Dec 2017 #20
Franken's term ends in 2020. n/t rzemanfl Dec 2017 #21
...and there'll be a Democrat to fill those two years. brooklynite Dec 2017 #25
Won't there be a special election in 2018? Or are you guaranteeing a Dem will win it? n/t rzemanfl Dec 2017 #26
Based on my data analysis, I'm very comfortable that a State that..... brooklynite Dec 2017 #27
and elected a professional wrestler. rzemanfl Dec 2017 #31
His 312 vote win must have looked like a landslide! n/t rainin Dec 2017 #43
Yes. Regardless of Franken's 2020 end of term there will be a special election in 2018. Texin Dec 2017 #36
UPDATE: Leadership has already identified their 2018 candidate... brooklynite Dec 2017 #56
We play smart by offering real and substantial alternatives relayerbob Dec 2017 #38
This is exactly what is happening treestar Dec 2017 #2
Yup. Liberals being willing to at least listen to another viewpoint erronis Dec 2017 #44
You left out Bibluca Dec 2017 #3
well I guess if you just listened to their refs you might believe that Horse with no Name Dec 2017 #8
Yes, but Bibluca Dec 2017 #12
Thanks. U beat me to it. nt Atticus Dec 2017 #13
Welcome to DU, Bibluca. calimary Dec 2017 #42
How about, when blue spectators and fans get frustrated Crunchy Frog Dec 2017 #18
I think I'm experiencing this very thing. rainin Dec 2017 #46
But the Blue team still has to follow the rules treestar Dec 2017 #53
The blue team needs to adjust to the new playing environment. Crunchy Frog Dec 2017 #55
I wish this was an exaggeration. yardwork Dec 2017 #4
Hey, it was purity that defeated Hitler - not bombs and bullets dalton99a Dec 2017 #5
Exactly Bibluca Dec 2017 #10
You are right, of course. If we just continue "going high", Trump and Pence will resign in shame Atticus Dec 2017 #17
LOL Bibluca Dec 2017 #24
May I add rainin Dec 2017 #47
You certainly may, though it truly saddens me that it is necessary. nt Atticus Dec 2017 #50
Don't forget blue team kicking out its players in the middle of the game. LisaL Dec 2017 #6
While the Red team is beating up the referee dalton99a Dec 2017 #11
K&R nt ProudProgressiveNow Dec 2017 #14
... and the only cheerleaders were the MSM. lpbk2713 Dec 2017 #15
. underpants Dec 2017 #16
Imagine embracing a political party that had no higher moral standards than the Republicans oberliner Dec 2017 #22
Imagine acknowledging the reality that the principles of the losers will never be implemented. Atticus Dec 2017 #29
The high ground doesn't mean squat when they have their boot on your neck. CrispyQ Dec 2017 #60
Actually a pretty good description ewagner Dec 2017 #23
Is this a thread about Brady and the Patriots? Orrex Dec 2017 #28
Knowing the rules better than anyone else is not cheating. Blue_true Dec 2017 #30
Brady is an amazing quarterback and Belichick is an amazing coach Orrex Dec 2017 #32
Exactly how do the Patriots play dirty? Blue_true Dec 2017 #33
And yet somehow they didn't know they couldn't video tape other teams or that deflating balls mythology Dec 2017 #58
Have you ever heard of something called the Ideal Gas Law. Blue_true Dec 2017 #59
No. LisaL Dec 2017 #35
Another point about the refs hvn_nbr_2 Dec 2017 #34
Perfect! pandr32 Dec 2017 #37
And, red team gets to layout the field and determine how many blue team players are sidelined. L. Coyote Dec 2017 #39
Actual topography of our situation dalton99a Dec 2017 #40
Awesome!!! And NOW we have one less player, one of our strongest. n/t rainin Dec 2017 #48
"Franken, there are too many Democrats on our team - Get Out!" dalton99a Dec 2017 #61
Precisely, and they can still barely hang on to their majority. L. Coyote Dec 2017 #52
Imagine trying to teach a pigeon to play chess. Binkie The Clown Dec 2017 #41
+1 dalton99a Dec 2017 #45
To further the analogy to make it equivalent kcr Dec 2017 #49
That is a very good analogy. One that we can all understand. Ferrets are Cool Dec 2017 #51
We have to play by rules that help us win, conventional or not. Tatiana Dec 2017 #54
You are missing the part where the blue team members turn on one of their own MVP. Amaryllis Dec 2017 #57

rainin

(3,011 posts)
1. What do we do?
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:09 AM
Dec 2017

How do you fight back? Al Franken was fighting back -- look what we did to him. How do you play this game?

Great analogy, by the way. This is exactly what is happening. I don't suggest we play dirty, but I wish we knew how to play smart.

brooklynite

(94,581 posts)
7. Are your suggesting that ONLY Al Franken was "fighting back"?
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:14 AM
Dec 2017

Al Franken was a good Senator, but he's not indispensible.

rainin

(3,011 posts)
9. Did we stab someone else in the back last week?
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:17 AM
Dec 2017

What did I miss? I'm pretty sure ONLY Al Franken was pushed to resign last week rather than allow him to go through an ethics investigation (due process).

brooklynite

(94,581 posts)
25. ...and there'll be a Democrat to fill those two years.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:18 PM
Dec 2017

The assertion that Fanken's departure will dampen turnout is baseless.

brooklynite

(94,581 posts)
27. Based on my data analysis, I'm very comfortable that a State that.....
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:25 PM
Dec 2017

...voted for Hillary Clinton
...voted for Mark Dayton
...voted for Klobuchar and Franken

will vote for a Democratic Senator.

Texin

(2,596 posts)
36. Yes. Regardless of Franken's 2020 end of term there will be a special election in 2018.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:19 PM
Dec 2017

That puts another Democratically-held senate seat up for grabs in a purple state when it would have been safely held for three more years. Minnesota used to be one of the most reliably democratic states for years, but that's all changed. With a little help from Putin again, what are the chances of the voting results being unmolested?

brooklynite

(94,581 posts)
56. UPDATE: Leadership has already identified their 2018 candidate...
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 08:29 PM
Dec 2017

I can't give details, by I trust my source.

relayerbob

(6,544 posts)
38. We play smart by offering real and substantial alternatives
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:26 PM
Dec 2017

We don't. And the last few leaders of the party deluded themselves into thinking that if we mimic the GOP by attacking and being mean we would win more elections. Instead, that drives people away from the polls, saying both sides are the same. Come up with a short, clear and cogent message and stick to it. And work as a team instead of a circular firing squad, a party of inclusiveness must be able to tolerate variation in beliefs within a larger vision

erronis

(15,275 posts)
44. Yup. Liberals being willing to at least listen to another viewpoint
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:11 PM
Dec 2017

And conservatives set in their brain-locked direction.

While that is a broad brush, people that are willing to entertain different viewpoints tend to gravitate to the Democratic party.

Others tend to gravitate to extremism in defense of their view, and if they are conniving politically-motivated, will use the 'Uglican party as a platform for their positions (generally conservative, misogynist, racial, isolationist.)

 

Bibluca

(63 posts)
3. You left out
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:11 AM
Dec 2017

that the blue players and spectators spent countless hours complaining to each other online about how the game was going, but that's all they did.

Horse with no Name

(33,956 posts)
8. well I guess if you just listened to their refs you might believe that
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:15 AM
Dec 2017

but don't discount the millions of Americans who have marched and protested this year.

 

Bibluca

(63 posts)
12. Yes, but
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:24 AM
Dec 2017

though it was a good thing, it didn't work. The game hasn't changed at all.

When one thing doesn't work, something else needs to be tried.

calimary

(81,283 posts)
42. Welcome to DU, Bibluca.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:10 PM
Dec 2017

I share your frustration. TOTALLY! Heck, I'm in my mid-60s now and I've been an activist for awhile, and I remain frustrated. And I went to the Women's March, in L.A. that day. trump is still there, and still has way too many allies despite his lousy decisions and lousy numbers. We never did get dubya impeached, hard as I tried. Even from here I tried. And it can be almost desperately dispiriting.

I have MSNBC on in the background and heard Dem Congressman John Garamendi say "all these things tied together. It's about power". He was specifically talking about the growing efforts to kneecap Robert Mueller, but I think it applies as a motivator. That's what WE need. In MANY ways!
- Tying all these things together on the trump/Russia front is making it more clear by the day how deeply guilty they all are, INCLUDING donald senior. And the more these dots are connected, the more power WE will have at our backs (to, say, flip enough districts from coast to coast to take back the House next year which would make impeachment far more likely). It's also eating away, day by day, on the GOP talking point that there's nothing to see here.
- Tying all these things together ALSO means aggressive politics, using this GOP corruption contamination from trump/Russia AND the the Roy Moore contamination (plus trump's own) that they're now the Grand Old Pedophiles. They can NO LONGER claim the "moral high ground." Which can very well lead to taking back the House, AND the Senate.
- Tying all these things together when you think of all the ways to be an activist. This is cumulative stuff. The first cancer cell doesn't kill you. Neither does the tenth or the thousandth. Takes millions. Millions of them take you down, usually because they've multiplied and spread, attacking from numerous different parts of the body, metastasizing through the bloodstream, into the liver, kidneys, bone marrow, and you're sunk. They wind up working together, ganging up on you, and they just overrun and overpower everything, and you're screwed. It's a cumulative effect that screws you.

So yeah. Seems to me we need to make sure there's a cumulative EVERYTHING. Yeah, sure the next letter-to-the-editor is gonna be THE magic one that just fixes everything (from your post farther downthread). No, it probably won't. But it'll count for something. It'll be one more voice speaking up for OUR side. Hell, we've got a SECOND full-time, full-speed-ahead cable network, Sinclair Broadcasting, warming up in the bullpen to take over local TV news all over the country with its merger with Tribune Broadcasting. So that's Pox Noise Plus One. AND all the hate radio. AND all the sideshows and sidecars and talking heads and opinionistas and fly-by-night "news" operations that are marching in formation. SOMEBODY'S gotta speak up. Somebody's gotta tie all these things together for the public. After all, it might only take ONE letter-to-the-editor that winds up, by accident, being read by somebody who usually gets their "news" only from Pox Noise and limbaugh. What if it were enough, or YOU said something in such a way, unique to you, that actually hits home with that reader? And as far as whether that one letter-to-the-editor tips the scale or not, it wasn't till the seventh accuser came forward that the tide turned on Al Franken. When things stood at six, he still had a Senate ethics hearing ahead of him - that he himself suggested.

I'm sorry for the lengthy rant, but I wanted to add this reminder. I wrote about it long ago here on DU. I learned this from my years in local and network radio, and rock stations - which had request lines. Why do they bother with request lines? Because they want to know what their listeners want to hear, and this is direct delivery of that message. The request line operators keep a running tally of who called for what song. And why is that considered valid input? Because of how a single call into a request line is interpreted. That ONE call is regarded as representative of how multiples of other listeners feel. The same listener who takes the time to call in (on active mode) to request Taylor Swift or Ed Sheeran or Logic or "Stairway to Heaven" represents others who want to hear that same stuff too (the passives), but they DIDN'T call in, maybe because they were working, in a meeting, picking the kids up, weren't near their phone, didn't feel like it, or didn't think it'd make any difference. Depending on market size, that multiple could be one representing ten, or 100, or 1,000, or more. I once got called by the Gallup pollsters, and was told that I wound up speaking for 50,000 people, because that's the representational ratio they used. That's how your one little voice can do some perception management. YOU can be presume to represent ten others, or 100 others, or more, depending on the readership.

So EVERY LITTLE BIT counts. And seems to me you have to think of these larger long-range things to motivate you, and as we're suffocating in the bad air of this GOP smoke machine, it's HARD!!! Don't I know it! As I noted farther up, I never did get bush/cheney impeached and removed, hard as I tried, and as much time as I put into it (which was a lot)! Yeah, it's slow. So were the glaciers. But they sure had an impact.

Crunchy Frog

(26,587 posts)
18. How about, when blue spectators and fans get frustrated
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:59 AM
Dec 2017

and critique the blue team, and speculate about how they might alter their strategy to play more effectively, they get accused of disloyalty, and of attacking the blue team, even getting blamed for their losses, and ultimately get driven out of the discussion. The fans that remain in the discussion create a narrative that says that the blue team doesn't need to reexamine its strategy, or alter its tactics, they just need better and more loyal fans.

rainin

(3,011 posts)
46. I think I'm experiencing this very thing.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:28 PM
Dec 2017

I participate in a discussion and am told I'm talking too much.

I'm loyal to democracy not to Kirsten. What our senators did only strengthens the Republicans. I'd like to see them reverse course before it's too late.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
53. But the Blue team still has to follow the rules
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 04:56 PM
Dec 2017

so the criticism is about how they should still be able to win while still following the rules while the Red Team does not. This point is not really good to make in this analogy, as there is no "improvement" that will help if the Red Team does not follow the rules.

dalton99a

(81,512 posts)
5. Hey, it was purity that defeated Hitler - not bombs and bullets
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:12 AM
Dec 2017

and sabotage and espionage and deception and all the nastiness of war



 

Bibluca

(63 posts)
10. Exactly
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:18 AM
Dec 2017

Eventually, reason and well-crafted op-eds won the day. We just need to wait it out...

Sure.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
17. You are right, of course. If we just continue "going high", Trump and Pence will resign in shame
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:58 AM
Dec 2017

and Congress will pass single payer, the ERA and a $15 minimum wage.

 

Bibluca

(63 posts)
24. LOL
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:07 PM
Dec 2017

It's coming any day now. If I just write one more thoughtful letter to the editor, I know things will change.

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
6. Don't forget blue team kicking out its players in the middle of the game.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 11:13 AM
Dec 2017

Saying it will force the red team to behave better.

Atticus

(15,124 posts)
29. Imagine acknowledging the reality that the principles of the losers will never be implemented.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:32 PM
Dec 2017

No war he's ever been fought "by the rules".

The battles for civil rights, LGBTQ rights, universal suffrage, union rights---none were accomplished without occasional transgressions that, while they were "not nice", "rude" or even ILLEGAL, were thought necessary by people we now recognize as heroes.

CrispyQ

(36,470 posts)
60. The high ground doesn't mean squat when they have their boot on your neck.
Mon Dec 11, 2017, 11:28 AM
Dec 2017

We're fighting for our country, the other side threw the rule book in the trash & we kicked one of our best bulldogs out of the ring. Someone better be willing to stand up & throw some dirt in their eyes or we're toast.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
30. Knowing the rules better than anyone else is not cheating.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:42 PM
Dec 2017

Before I write more, Hi John Harbaugh!!!!

Republicans lie and cheat, the Patriots win by being more prepared than their opponent. The last Super Bowl is an example. The Patriots guessed that a Super Bowl game will be a struggle where the fittest team likely wins, so they worked endurance training into their regimine toward the end of their regular season, and that paid off in the SB when Atlanta ran out of gas.

Orrex

(63,213 posts)
32. Brady is an amazing quarterback and Belichick is an amazing coach
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 12:48 PM
Dec 2017

The Patriots play dirty and receive preferential treatment from the NFL in the form of minimal penalties or repercussions.

These facts are not mutually exclusive.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
33. Exactly how do the Patriots play dirty?
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:04 PM
Dec 2017

Filming other teams was allowed when they did it.

Footballs lose inflation in cold rainy weather, that is a natural fact. Why did the NFL destroy the game ball inflation data that it took for a season after fining the Patriots? You know what my guess is? The data would have caused logistical issues for the NFL and required that they keep balls in special, climate controlled containers on the sidelines and use balls for only a few minutes at a time during games.

Tell me how the Patriots cheat. Getting minimal penalties is about preparation, like having offensive linemen line up right so that one does not lineup in the backfield on plays, or setting pick within the allowed band. Great teams prepare their players to get few penalties, losing teams rack up penalties.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
58. And yet somehow they didn't know they couldn't video tape other teams or that deflating balls
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:10 PM
Dec 2017

wasn't legal. And let's not get into the fairly obviously not in line with the spirit of the salary cap arrangement with Tom Brady's fraudulent body guru/business partner to give reduced rent and sickening legitimacy to a snake oil salesman. Concussion proofing water my ass. It's a shame that Tom Brady is more than happy to sell actively harmful medical advice along side the same scumbag who sold millions of dollars worth of phony medicine to people dying of cancer and such.

The Patriots are a worthless classless organization that cheats to "win". They are nothing more than Lance Armstrong. Good perhaps, but can't actually be called winners since they didn't do so without cheating repeatedly.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
59. Have you ever heard of something called the Ideal Gas Law.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 10:26 PM
Dec 2017

BTW, it is called a Law for a good reason. Educate your self on the law. But to make things short, volume/pressure product is directly proportional to temperature at constant mass. In cold temperatures, balls deflate because the Volume/pressure product decreases, so footballs will look and feel softer.

hvn_nbr_2

(6,486 posts)
34. Another point about the refs
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:09 PM
Dec 2017

In many cases, the refs are actually the Red team's coaches--Red campaign chairs and other higher-ups in campaigns are also the head election officials.

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
39. And, red team gets to layout the field and determine how many blue team players are sidelined.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:42 PM
Dec 2017

Voter suppression and gerrymandering, the two things keeping the Republicans in the majority.

L. Coyote

(51,129 posts)
52. Precisely, and they can still barely hang on to their majority.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 04:22 PM
Dec 2017

And they can't even roll the ball across their finish line on one piece of legislation.

Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
41. Imagine trying to teach a pigeon to play chess.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 01:55 PM
Dec 2017

He knocks all the pieces off, shits on the board and then struts around claiming he won.

kcr

(15,317 posts)
49. To further the analogy to make it equivalent
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 02:35 PM
Dec 2017

A fan of the Red Team points to one of the very best players on the Blue Team and claims they saw them break a rule. Coach of the blue team turns to the player and says, "Sorry, rules are rules. You're off the team!" "But, coach? Can't I explain? Can't I have a hearing or something?" "Nope! I won't have rule breakers on my team! We're the good guys! We play by the rules! We won't stoop to their level." Protests from fans and other players pointing to the Red Team glaring at them with their weapons at the ready fails to sway him. He thinks maybe then the Red Team will start playing fair. Besides, Coach has principles!

Tatiana

(14,167 posts)
54. We have to play by rules that help us win, conventional or not.
Sun Dec 10, 2017, 05:03 PM
Dec 2017

When we regain power, then we re-establish or pass legislation that codifies consequences for violations of the rules.

But it makes no sense for us to continue to get hammered when the other side actively flaunts its disdain for rules and their followers admire them for it.

Great analogy, by the way.

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