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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhen "He abducted her, tied her up and violently raped her" gets the same repercusions as...
"He once told her a dirty joke," or "He once patted her behind" then we have lost all sense of proportion. And when that happens "me too" will have become so trivialized as to lose all meaning.
Raping a 14 year old in secret is not even in the same category as trying to kiss someone in a public setting. Or does anybody care about that distinction these days?
brooklynite
(94,585 posts)Last edited Mon Dec 11, 2017, 02:37 PM - Edit history (1)
...but the issue is: where is line drawn that dilineates unacceptable behavior? Women reporting incidents a women Senators calling on Franken to step down have drawn the line where they think it belongs today.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)mn9driver
(4,426 posts)then nothing is. Which is exactly the way the republicans will play it.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)from the "everybody does it" theme that has pervaded the media over the last two weeks. It makes it easier for fundies to vote against Jones, and to encourage the like-minded to do the same.
questionseverything
(9,655 posts)Karol McGuire By flattening the moral code, so that molestation of a 14 year-old might be the same as putting a hand around a waist, you have lost the moral authority. I wouldn't trust you to take out my garbage.
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Cynthia Hahn
Cynthia Hahn You are an a-hole for what you did to Al Franken - whom I suspect you believed would stand in your way to a 2020 pres or vp pres nomination. Let me give you a clue. As a progressive liberal independent, I can definitively state that you have NO CHANCE ...See More
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Judy Marshall Wirges
Judy Marshall Wirges It should have been left up to Minnesota if whether they wanted Senator Franken to stay or go. He was hung out to dry by his own party. If you want to hang someone, go after Trump. So disappointed.
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Kylene Kulm
Kylene Kulm http://www.cnn.com/.../franken-trump-judicial.../index.html
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Zac Garripoli
Zac Garripoli You are a disgraceful hack and opportunist. I will oppose anything you propose that helps your career. The Democrats don't need parasites. Resign.
questionseverything
(9,655 posts)Vicky Reed Because of you and the incredibly naive and self centered Dems that followed your lead, we have lost one of the strongest most courageous voices we had in the US Senate. Thanks for nothing Kirsten and if you should ever seek higher office please believe you would NEVER EVER get a vote from me.
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Carolyn Ponté
Carolyn Ponté I hope you are voted out and never work in Washington again. You are a sell out.
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JD Dorian
JD Dorian You invited me to like your page after my critical comments of your actions with regard to my beloved senator Al Franken? Seriously? Do you think I will forgive you for nullifying my vote for him, for taking away my voice in the senate, and for denyi...See More
TheDebbieDee
(11,119 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)questionseverything
(9,655 posts)guess she better resign
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Putting your hand on someones waist when taking a picture is not assault by any stretch of the imagination yet that is the straw that broke the camels back.
The other claims were all equally as specious.
If they get to decide where the line is so do I and they crossed way over it.
airmid
(500 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)Trial by facebook and twitter.
NanceGreggs
(27,815 posts)... to decide for all of us where that line should be? They were elected to represent their constituents in the senate, not as the final arbiters of what constitutes "unacceptable" behaviour as it relates to interactions between men and women.
When the loss of one's senate seat is the punishment, it means that Franken is being punished in the same way another senator would be punished for far more egregious behaviour.
If the final outcome is the same for touching a woman's waist as it is for aggressive sexual molestation, the "difference in the gravity of the two actions" has been rendered irrelevant.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Franken was elected by many people of his state. For them to decide that Franken should resign without even giving him a hearing, which is a normal process, isn't a moral high ground at all. They have an established process, but now they decided to just abandon it. Why,exactly?
BadgerMom
(2,771 posts)I would be so. damn. angry.
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)and I am fucking livid.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)Probably for reasons that have nothing to do with what Franken did.
BadgerMom
(2,771 posts)SMDH
ancianita
(36,060 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Be penalties less than resigning?
NanceGreggs
(27,815 posts)... investigation into the veracity of accusations before any "penalty" is applied?
Igel
(35,317 posts)That's the problem with this kind of "litigation". The claims are verified in secret, often by sympathetic reporters motivated to make sure the claims check out, and are not subject to cross examination. One side dictates the rules, not the laws.
Last year a female student unexpected hugged me. She meant, I'm sure, nothing by it except, "It was a great year, thanks for being a nice teacher." I've had a variety of females give me a pro-forma hug of greeting or departure, sometimes with a pro-forma cheek kiss. Never considered it sexual assault.
I've had anti-male or male-degrading jokes told in my presence. Often by women who had heard the same kinds of things in reverse. The men didn't mean to belittle the women any more than the women meant to belittle the men in any serious kind of way.
Had it been a man hugging a woman teacher, that teacher might have said it was an unwanted advance. Does it matter what the guy intended? No.
Yeah, there's a power imbalance between the two sexes. Doesn't mean every male thinks the same way any more than it means every female thinks the same way. Or that intent doesn't matter--it's just that intent's damnably hard to prove.
Just like memory is very hard to maintain unaltered.
NanceGreggs
(27,815 posts)... to resign from office. That IS a penalty.
XRubicon
(2,212 posts)and should not be tolerated. Rape to unwanted kisses in public.
But what is done about it should be proportional to the offense. Everyone doesn't need to be fired or sent to prison - but some do.
rainin
(3,011 posts)When you say "eight women", even though all of them are mild or questionable, that is by definition not making a difference.
dhol82
(9,353 posts)So, you think this is a reasonable reason to destroy one of the few really effective democratic members of the senate?
Congratulations on Gillibrand group think.
rainin
(3,011 posts)And democrats fell for it.
I must have had trouble communicating. I have a 102 fever.
I'm not giving up hope that we can pressure Kirsten et al to reverse course. He was wronged!
dhol82
(9,353 posts)world wide wally
(21,744 posts)What good does it do the accuser to be the 5th person to say something anonymously?
LakeArenal
(28,819 posts)The right to face your accusers, or even know who they are, and due process?
rock
(13,218 posts)Not the conflations.
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)What if breitbart got three 16 year olds to swear that bernie raped them? Then five "aides" who swear that he told Warren and Gellibrand? Do you then demand that those three resign without any proof or process.
The republicans are using tactics that only the rule of law will protect us from.
rainy
(6,091 posts)report them all the same: Roy Moore now has another accuser another woman accused Al Franken of Sexual groping making the total 8.
The media is our problem unable to tell the truth thinking they have to keep even score or whatever.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)SergeStorms
(19,201 posts)Think about it.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)they've set their sights on getting men and women to hate each other. They are hell bent on tearing out country apart and the Dems are cooperating beautifully.
ancianita
(36,060 posts)strategy might be long term.
SergeStorms
(19,201 posts)there won't be any "long term".
ancianita
(36,060 posts)SergeStorms
(19,201 posts)Sometimes I wonder if Democrats actually want to win elections, or if they'd rather keep their righteous indignation intact.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Exactly.
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)robbob
(3,531 posts)By a woman who dropped the charges when faced with death threats. It was violent rape against a child. Thats what I thought of when I saw the title of this thread.
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)going to have a presser but then backed off when she got the death threats? Or maybe that was a different woman. So many it's hard to keep them straight.
robbob
(3,531 posts)Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)is a problem.
SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)My cousin said a guy at her job called her 'sweetheart' after she said hi to her. She took it to HR and now the guy has to meet with HR. I told her that was silly but she tends to think he crossed the line with her. The guy said it was just a friendly greeting. I asked her how did it happen she said she went to the cafeteria and she said hello and he said hey sweetheart. she said he never even looked up.
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)kind of endearing. Guess if she were a man, it would be harassment. I have heard lots of people call people "Honey" as well - I've know people from the south who do it a lot. Southerners, is that a southern thing?
SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)ProfessorGAC
(65,057 posts)I don't, but it's not because i'm toeing some line. It's just not me to use that kind of term with relative strangers. And with those i know, i tend to just use their name.
But, i've never seen anyone seems the least put off when my wife says it.
Saviolo
(3,282 posts)Going into a diner or restaurant in the south and the waiter or waitress (I'm a guy) has hands on my shoulder or arm with lots of "Hon" or "sugar" or "sweetie." I get that it's meant to be friendly, but it's just far too familiar for me. I don't think it is abusive, but it makes me feel incredibly uncomfortable, and I have to do my best not to recoil.
treestar
(82,383 posts)A lot of people call you hon
mythology
(9,527 posts)Nuanced punishment. But unfortunately at this point there isn't a legal punishment available for Roy Moore. At this point realistically the available punishment is that they should resign positions of power. What would you propose? Send Franken to sexual harassment training? That seems woefully inadequate as he's probably not going to learn to keep his hands to himself.
Also let's not forget all but Ivana Trump's claim Trump raped her, which she later said wasn't meant literally, the other 18 women who have accused Trump of sexual harassment and assault have been in the same manner as the allegations against Franken. I don't think anybody here would be unhappy if Trump was forced out over that.
Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)Then when he became POTUS she walked it back and said it was just rough sex
Ex-Wife: Donald Trump Made Me Feel Violated During Sex
Ivana Trump once accused the real-estate tycoon of rape, although she later clarified: not in the criminal sense.
BRANDY ZADROZNY
TIM MAK
07.27.15 8:35 PM ET
Donald Trump introduced his presidential campaign to the world with a slur against Mexican immigrants, accusing them of being rapists and bringing crime into the country.
I mean somebodys doing it!
Whos doing the raping? Donald Trump said, when asked to defend his characterization.
It was an unfortunate turn of phrase for Trumpin more ways than one. Not only does the current frontrunner for the Republican presidential nomination have a history of controversial remarks about sexual assault, but as it turns out, his ex-wife Ivana Trump once used rape to describe an incident between them in 1989. She later said she felt violated by the experience.
Michael Cohen, special counsel at The Trump Organization, defended his boss, saying, Youre talking about the frontrunner for the GOP, presidential candidate, as well as a private individual who never raped anybody. And, of course, understand that by the very definition, you cant rape your spouse.
It is true, Cohen added. You cannot rape your spouse. And theres very clear case law.
Ivana Trumps assertion of rape came in a depositionpart of the early 90s divorce case between the Trumps, and revealed in the 1993 book Lost Tycoon: The Many Lives of Donald J. Trump.
The book, by former Texas Monthly and Newsweek reporter Harry Hurt III, described a harrowing scene. After a painful scalp reduction surgery to remove a bald spot, Donald Trump confronted his then-wife, who had previously used the same plastic surgeon.
Your fucking doctor has ruined me! Trump cried
What followed was a violent assault, according to Lost Tycoon. Donald held back Ivanas arms and began to pull out fistfuls of hair from her scalp, as if to mirror the pain he felt from his own operation. He tore off her clothes and unzipped his pants.
Then he jams his penis inside her for the first time in more than sixteen months. Ivana is terrified
It is a violent assault, Hurt writes. According to versions she repeats to some of her closest confidantes, he raped me.
Following the incident, Ivana ran upstairs, hid behind a locked door, and remained there crying for the rest of night. When she returned to the master bedroom in the morning, he was there.
As she looks in horror at the ripped-out hair scattered all over the bed, he glares at her and asks with menacing casualness: Does it hurt? Hurt writes.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/ex-wife-donald-trump-made-me-feel-violated-during-sex
*more at the link
Response to SummerSnow (Reply #35)
Amaryllis This message was self-deleted by its author.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)Amaryllis
(9,524 posts)outside the realm of possibility that it could have been his daughter, and that in itself is kinda freaky.
SummerSnow
(12,608 posts)questionseverything
(9,655 posts)accusations have been made...he called for an investigation...that is where we should be at
i don't want trump out ovr the sexual harassment stuff , i want him and most the repub party ARRESTED,TRIED AND CONVICTED for their conspiring to commit the crime of election theft with a foreign power
ProfessorGAC
(65,057 posts)Based upon what? Your first instinct is "Off With Their Heads"? Really?
IronLionZion
(45,447 posts)especially in a photo with lots of witnesses.
I feel traumatized by most DUers on this board so you all have to resign.
jalan48
(13,869 posts)Kablooie
(18,634 posts)It was about personal power within the Democratic party.
Franken was quickly becoming influential which threatened some Dem leaders so they used this as a way to eliminate him.
They are willing to trivialize the "Me Too" movement in order to hold onto personal power.
That's the only thing that makes sense to me.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)then it is the lord of the manor taking what belongs to him.
We have really go to do something about the Myth of the Frail, White Female Flower.
orleans
(34,053 posts)dchill
(38,502 posts)BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Thanks Fux Spews and AM HATE Radio.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Too many women (and men) have already experience *both* being violently raped and having their behind patted without their consent. In fact, that victim of violent rape might have had their hard-won recovery set back significantly *because* of that pat.
That is the world we live in - where for too many women and others it isn't either/or, but both, and where that violent rape started with a non-consensual pat on the back, or a hand that moved where it shouldn't in full public. That's how way too many violent rapists find their victims and their defenders - they check how much a potential victim has been socialized to accept that pat on the behind without making a scene. After all, as you say, it is trivial to be patted on the behind without consent. Most rapists don't jump out of the bushes and attack women. Most rapists are your friends, your family members, your co-workers - they thrive when people like you, Binkie, put sexual assault in hierarchies. When women and children and men are told that we shouldn't make a fuss about a pat on our behind because at least we weren't violently raped. Because it is so incredibly common for rapists to use boundary violating techniques - those boundaries women are told not to make a fuss if are violated and that it is their fault, in fact, if they are violated - they sue these techniques to find their victims and to make sure that those around them will give cover to them if the victim isn't as compliant as they hope.
Rapists, Binkie, want you to make the very post you made here, because they know that having non-rapists say these things robs victims of their hope that they'll be heard and believed. After all, if Binkie tells us adult women that we shouldn't make such a fuss about being patted on our behind without our consent, why should the 14-year old rape victim think that Binkie will believe her or him when they tell their story?
brer cat
(24,568 posts)Excellent post, KitSileya.
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)And very well said. Thank you!
Thank you Kit!
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)We should be debating this in all its nuance.
Frankly(!) I'm surprised (and encouraged) at the overwhelming support of Franken on DU. But its good to hear this point of view. I say this as someone who has had posts hidden for daring to go against the tide of certain threads. So I applaud your bravery.
But while I do agree, even though I have no real experience as a victim, only what I know from a past girlfriend who was VERY sensitive based on abuse as a young person from her father, that someone who has experienced actual physical sexual abuse, probably would cringe and even be mentally triggered if there were ANY kind of real or perceived uninvited touching, like a hand slipping a little low on the back while taking a picture, I think there must be room for nuance and an understanding that while there are some females (or males) that are triggered by even a hand a little low around a waist, that there must be some form of intent by the person accused in order for there to be a crime.
That of course there are evil men that rape and abuse, and they KNOW that "boundary violating techniques" are all a part of their depraved predatory strategy But surely there must be some form of innocent before proven guilty, especially in cases where the accused has never had any reported history of this, and the accusations are spurious and there is more evidence of collusion than there is any evidence of any kind of sexual abuse beyond a rude photo on a comedy tour.
You say "if Binkie tells us adult women that we shouldn't make such a fuss about being patted on our behind without our consent, why should the 14-year old rape victim think that Binkie will believe her or him when they tell their story?"
....There are layers to that. I understand where you are coming from there, that you alert us to the danger of a slippery slope where if we dismiss more minor sexual misconduct, and draw a line, that that line could be moved or clouded.
But IMO, we simply must trust that we are adult enough, or smart enough, as a majority, to define that line. As a society we do it when we delineate between "murder" and "manslaughter" for instance. We may get it wrong at times when that line is just under or just over. But there must be SOME semblance of trust in the majorities definitions or we are lost, we are not a Democracy. That when you reason that Binkie (and others here) by not making a fuss about being patted on our behind are diminishing the accusations by a rape victim, you are pointing out, that they are very different extremes. So you are essentially arguing against your initial premise...that its all the same thing (to some women).
But it is such an emotionally charged subject, and in fact, it is one of the rare instances in crime and law and order that emotions SHOULD be a factor in a decision. That is what makes this kind of debate so charged. Because, like my past girlfriend, I can see first hand how women (and some men) never 'get over it' and that should be acknowledged and respected, but IMO the line must be drawn somewhere, and we must trust our justice system made up of laws we as a society have honed through centuries, as defined by a majority of citizens, to draw that line for us.
And i feel that in Franken's case, not only was he not tried in a court of law, he WAS tried and sentenced, for political reasons, by his own peers. They have decided that there is no line. And by defining their position as such, Trump, Moore, and others can use that conclusion to whitewash their own behaviour. And that is far more dangerous than erasing any clear standards by only taking into consideration one segment of society, those who were more violently assaulted, made up of mostly women, that may be adversely triggered by even a hand around their waist. Cold though that may sound to any former sexual assault victim. But like I said, I respect and appreciate your post.
PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)Though I agree with you, it looks like the Democratic Party machine did what it did to Franken to position its US Representatives and Senators to forcefully demand that Trump and Moore be held accountable for sexual harassment, and politically, it may work.
Yes, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth...but I'm a man, and have been told in no uncertain terms that 'I don't get it,' and that 'I'm not a feminist,' so due process isn't so important, apparently.
Still, as I said, it may work...politically. And if it does, that is good, because we're about an eighth of an inch away from becoming a dictatorship.
But, what next? In the 50s and 60s we had the House Un-American Activities Committee in the US House. That is the unintended consequence of no due process. We'll see, I guess.
I must say, I'm certainly enthused moving forward. OK, now I'm shutting up because I clearly don't get 'it.'
marble falls
(57,097 posts)experience of being diminished? Would you stand for it at the hands of another male? Seriously look at it from a woman's point of view if you can. Purely without any liberal/conservative attitude.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)But people who sexually abuse and or harass should face consequences too, just different consequences.
TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)like a good strategy to me. i agree that people need to maintain a sense of proportion here, and saying he shouldn't have resigned is one thing, but turning him into a democratic super-hero is a little messed up, IMO.