they have their Republican Jesus so go figure.

And what you say about some (not all) Christians is true.

You could extend that discussion to war, torture, health care, refugees, and many other aspects of life.

Some are very devoted to the values you talk about.

Others, not so much.

I think many of the right wing "Christians" choose their brand of religion to match their political beliefs, rather than the other way around

I'm thinking about what you said and have to agree. Some of their "beliefs" are so entangled with their political views, however, it is hard to separate the two. The issue of abortion, for example. Several family members of mine will never vote for a Democrat unless he/she is "Pro-Life." It's a circular, dead end argument for me, like, what came first, the chicken or the egg. And THAT, my friend, is their bottom line. All else doesn't matter. And that is what is so terribly tragic -- that everything else is lip service, up to and including the Jesus effect (feed the poor, hungry, etc.). Oh, they believe all that, but won't cast the vote for the politician who can actually do something about it, unless they are pro-life. Have a good day.

..what most conservatives really mean is anti-choice.

If you are pro-life, for example, you would be hard pressed to justify capital punishment, for example.

The kicker for me are those who are anti-abortion but are also opposed to birth control.

Anyhow, I would hope that people could rally behind things that in the real world would decrease abortions...such as helping encourage women economically....knowing economics is a prime reason to have an abortion

if they really are pro-life they would care about people from birth to death
which they do not

Very well said, that's my take on this as well.

Climate change dooms ALL OUR MOTHER. Mother EARTH.

And you can't say you're "pro-life" if you're in favor of capital punishment.

You can't say you're "pro-life" if you want to cut off all support programs for that baby once it's born. You don't get to stop caring or worrying about preserving life after the baby emerges from the birth canal.

YES it's really about anti-choice. There's only one acceptable choice they think a woman deserves. Which doesn't sound to me like any kind of choice at all.

I've family members who are kind and Christian and I also have ones who are Christian and could only be described as cult followers. Modern Christianity has become primarily what we see out of the Prosperity Gospel movement. A bunch of well off people get together to be happy about how their life is going.

I'm a reformed southern baptist and atheist. I know their schtick and I don't even recognize the "Christianity" from the 1980's anymore. They are more judgmental, mean, elite, and they celebrate hatred and willful ignorance.

Thanks for being a Good Person.

There is this dismissive attitude that atheists can't be moral without GOD.

I argue the opposite. Truely good atheists are more moral because they do it for pure reasons that don't involve the rewards of heaven or the penalties of hell.

There is an old expression that Character is what you do when no one is looking.

I have amended that to say Morality is what you do when there is no God watching.

there's hardly anything admirable about being moral if you're doing it simply out of fear of eternity in hell and/or for the sake of the reward of eternity in heaven.

in fact, it reduces morality to base self-interest.

there's hardly anything admirable about being moral if you're doing it simply out of fear of eternity in hell and/or for the sake of the reward of eternity in heaven.

The key word is "if". And it might apply for some.

A person's beliefs about the afterlife don't really have any bearing on how moral a person they are. My being a Christian doesn't make me better than anyone else. In fact, it makes me a hypocrite much of the time, because I often fail to live up to the standards that I claim to believe in. But all I can do is keep trying.

Thanks for that, especially the last two sentences. I almost stood up and applauded. Someone finally gets it. A good day to you!

You wrote 4 things, ending each time with the following: should be ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN BY THEIR FAITH.


So that construction represents your particular view, your personal opinion, on what Christianity should be. Agreed?

Your last item was:

We're encouraged that after the gift of salvation, we are not left 'naked' and that's it. IOW, tough tickets if you messed up.

We were then gifted the coordinating gift of REPENTANCE, for Our Redeemer knew we could/would run into the ditch from time to time.
He is The Lover of Mankind--"Philanthropos".

So that as one having received salvation/redemption, when one acknowledges falling short, they be renewed to their redemptive state of being.

I've seen more Godly humility displayed in some unchurched/non-believers. Which is why it is spiritual death to JUDGE another. Humble our sorry selves.
And that includes moi.

But we know that forgiveness is also necessary because we always fall short of the ideal.

It's a complete package with components hinged on each other.

Suffer an offense, forgiveness.

It is beyond difficult at times.

"Just speak the word." That's a start!

I am appreciative of your OPs and your replies. 🤗

... Trumpets who KNOW there's something stank about Red Don and Putin's relationship.

I'm not talking about Winger Ville flunkies I'm talking about those who are clued in and know even on the face of it Red Don's crew and their relationship with Russia and Bad Vlad is screwed up to no end.

the spirit speaking.

Our 'minds' rail against that which it is disagreeable and off-putting to our senses.

It is not an easy walk.

I actually don't have hatred for 'those'. Other feelings, yes.

If hatred tries to well up in me, I recognize it and refuse to keep it. One falls into a trap.

It ain't easy.

I must remember the One Whom I honor with my being and so allow Him to mete out Judgment and Justice.

It ain't easy.

Scripture also says, "Let the dead bury the dead." (Paraphrased.)

IOW, don't concern yourself with that which is gone.

In the Parable of the Prodigal, the son had to come to the end of himself BY himself.

No hand wringing/wailing/beating of his father's chest/rending of his father's garments would get the son to return 'home', only then when he 'came to the end of himself'.

We must concern ourselves with reaching those with 'fertile ground', those with 'an ear to hear', not bang our heads against the wall in an attempt to win over the hardcore, industrial strength rw's. They must come to the end of themselves by themselves.

There are several biblical scholars who believe that in fact she was has wife and the Cana was his marriage feast. It should be noted that all of his disciples were married men and the infatuation with celibacy was anathema to Jewish law and customs. The celibate cults were solely of gentile origin and common among numerous pagan religions. Latter, so called Christians, were not in imitation of Judaism, but paganism that accorded superstitious value to it participants.

There are numerous interpretations.

There is absolutely no reference to Mary Magdalene in this passage. The woman referred to is totally without identification. The clear intent of the passage is don't condemn someone without looking into your own faults. He how is without sin cast the first stone.

I

Yes, Jesus said 7 times 70. But, and this is extremely important, you need to include the previous verse. "If thy brother offends thee, rebuke him. If he says he is sorry, forgive him".

You shouldn't go around, tossing out forgiveness like candy on Halloween. There has to be recognition on the part of the person seeking forgiveness of what they did and they need to try and change. (That's the whole concept of the Catholic idea of 'Confession' - you recognize what you did and try and not continue to do it.)

(And, just for the record, I am an agnostic on my good days and an atheist on my not so good days, but I try and live my life based on the ideas of love and charity and morality that Jesus taught, because that seems like the right way to live one's life.)

It's for your own spiritual health.

Something was said once to someone. He had a bird and wanted to correct and receive an apology. I told him to drop it. He saw wisdom and let it go. He received an apology eventually. It was not worth the strife. The Holy Spirit sees all. He straightened it out.

I am old enuff and have experienced enuff to know when the enemy of our souls is poking with his dirty pitchfork. He (it) still *exists* to cause turmoil and strife.

And he (it) infiltrates those who are deceived enough to carry out his (its) foul agenda.

Luke: 17:3 KJV:
If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

As I read it, there can be no forgiveness without someones recognition that they messed up. You can decide not to hate, not to carry anger, you can even decide not to let it bother you. But (as lease as I read that passage) the transgressor has to accept the fact that they were wrong and offended (trespassed) you.

The offenders did not repent.

If it's available one may take a 'brother' aside and mention to them what the offense was and one may receive a 'forgive me'. But what if one doesn't' and it escalates?

The Lord's Prayer. If prayed daily, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us." Covers it?

"I'm going to sit at the welcome table one of these days".

Most people prefer to think of homeless people as homeless, rather than people.

She won't forget your act of kindness.

I'm an agnostic recovering Catholic, raised Protestant, so I'm willing to join your choir...but if you want to quote the New Testament, you'll find this story in the book of Matthew, chapter 25, beginning at verse 31 thru 46.
Paraphrasing here...Jesus said that at the end of time, folks would be divided into the sheep and the goats. And the sheep would be rewarded because "when I was in need, you helped" The sheep ask "when did we ever see you in need?" "What you did for others, you did for me." The goats, however, will be cast out because "when I was in need, you did nothing." "When did we see you in need?" "What you did to others, you did to me"
On that day, it will suck to be a goat.

i'm doing well financially -- wasn't always that way. i give about 15% of my income to charity. BTW. i was raised catholic.

... how thoroughly the right wing people in this country have co-opted the term "Christian." I hadn't realized how marginalized my own faith had become until this election cycle. Anyway. Thanks again for understanding the true identity of Christianity.

P.S. except I do agree with guillameb's post #6

I didn't know that about Dave. His bread is killer!

ad from the local grocery we shop at 95%.


I had a yen to buy it someday--it is not inexpensive.

But when I read up thread 'why', I will def pick a loaf when on special. It sounds 'loaded' with all good!

For too many Christians I know, their faith and churches are more like exclusive social clubs.

I grew up in a fundamentalist home where judgement of others reigned supreme.

more of a sign of mental health than being or not being religious. To me anyway.

but I am definitely not a Christian, at least not in that I don't believe the Bible is some sort of truth, I'm inclined to think the guy they call Jesus probably never existed, and other stuff like that. I do have other beliefs that come under the heading of "religious belief" but exactly what they are isn't important.

I do try to live a decent life, and I do volunteer work at the local homeless shelter. I happen to do it along with a particular faith group that I am very comfortable with, which is quite nice.

I find that the intrinsic reward of helping others who are in need is immense. At various times in my life I've done such helping things. I know I'm not as good as I could be, and I actually struggle with that a lot. Meanwhile I try to do what I can.

At least, that's the faith they usually act according to.

Fake Christians
And three more
Wealth Is Waste

Are two sins that cry out to Heaven for vengeance along with murder and pedophilia (sins of the Sodomites)

I was raised Catholic, but my mom never told me about the Church's stances on homosexuality and abortion. When I learned those, I left. My mom was fine with that ; my dad was an atheist.

We're having problems in our family right now because my brother's wife comes from a ridiculously conservative family. They are extremely right-wing Catholics. The whole family went to Rome, and the wife's dad didn't want to visit the Vatican because he doesn't like the Pope. Which is kind of anti-Catholic - aren't you supposed to listen to the Pope? Apparently concern for the environment and the poor is against his sick notion of Christianity.

They're just awful religious snobs and they tsk tsk because no one in my family goes to church and some of us are atheists. They got mad at their son-in-law because he left his parish when the gay music director was fired. They were embarrassed that he made a stink about GLBT rights. Fuck these people, the holidays are coming and I have to put up with their snobby bullshit all over again.

But the worst thing is, I know my Bible better than they do. They don't study the Bible at all, and his views of his own Pope are unchristian. Can't take it much longer, I worry my brother is headed for a divorce, spurred on by these insufferable people.

I like to study the Bible. I've even thought of joining a Protestant church just so I can go to Bible study. Also to flip the bird to my brother's in-laws. I kind of miss church, but not these horrible political Christians.

or they will spend an eternity in hell for bringing disrepute on the faith.

until the concept of religion is completely obliterated and eradicated from the mind of man.

I also feel that the two party system could be included.
Us versus them.
"My 'god/party is better than your 'godparty'.
(DU blasphemy, I'm sure.)

I would bet that many of those on the other side of the aisle know they would sleep better at night
if they could vote with their moral compass and not have to worry about being ostracized by their "PARTY".

The two-party system is like everything else we have that creates conflict, it is a false dialectic based on emotional argument that transforms informed opinion into something other than its original intent, and condemns our race and our planet to an endless cycle of disaster. Wars, presidents, nationalism, militarism, ideology, gods, states, religions, LEADERS and FOLLOWERS are all artifices designed to engender division and conflict among us, but instead of destroying these things that destroy us, we embrace them in the face of potential ostracism. The true cause of all war is a fight over money, but it is always disguised by a "cause that is just" which creates appeals to the non-wealthy (peasants) on one "side" or another. In reality, war only determines who gets rich and who is left alive. If we were able to send the wealthy and their children to fight the wars they start, the wars would soon come to an end.

You certainly are a much better that most of the so-called Christians that I see. I'm an atheist too, and I'm right there with you! Well said!

...here in SF and it really drove home the themes you are talking about; namely, no man or woman is an island of moral purity if you turn your back on society and ignore the needy and poor. The incarnation of Ignorance and Want into two starving desperate children left a very few dry eyes in the house. We do indeed suck, byronius, I suck, and thanks to your and Dicken's words, I intend to do better.

..."How is it that I'm a better Christian than these people, and I'm an atheist?

I mean, I don't worship the guy as a god, but Mr. O'Nazareth taught plenty of stuff about humility and forgiveness that I'm completely down with. Not so much with the stuff about blind faith, but since I regard him as a mere mortal there's no theological dilemma for me to let that part pass. But then, I don't really have conflicts with Christians who keep to the humility and forgiveness parts.


My beef is with the Pharisee-like ones who have this bizarre syncretism of Fire and Brimstone Christianity, Jingo patriotism, Social Darwinist Capitalism, and, invariably, covert or overt white supremacism

A mix almost guaranteed to reinforce the worst traits of each (at least, when there's enough space between traits to distinguish a "worst" ).

at them in my head and I’m reminded that religion is social control. Christians didn’t invent “morality, “ nor do they own it despite what they think. If they need someone telling them how to be decent,that control is probably a good thing.

Being from the Western Plains, they wete very impressed by what they saw.

One of the chiefs observed (and I paraphrase) that the white man is very great at making wondrous things, but very poor at distributing it among the people.

There are thousands of denominations and millions of independent practitioners, each one convinced they're the only ones doing God's will and following Christ's teachings to the letter, and that everyone else is doing it wrong. Someone can believe or disbelieve just about anything and still be one flavor of Christian or another.

When someone says to you, "I'm a Christian," they've told you nothing.

And then he rewrote it. In his version, Adam was the first son of god, Jesus was the second, and Moon was the third.

Still, there are some basic bits repeated again and again and again. And they all have to do with the least among us.


I'm not even counting the Gnostic Gospels, which basically denounces the priesthood, acknowledges the equality of women, and emphatically orders followers not to build churches, only homes for the poor.

So King James had those five books removed and burned. Because. Ya know.

There are other words in that book, too, that say very different things. Every Christian picks and chooses which parts of the book to obey and which to "interpret" in such a way they can be ignored. None of them can be proven right, or wrong. The good and the bad are Christians equally.

You aren't a better Christian. You're a better person.

Just angry at the practice of ignoring the Basics, which are so very clear. Sermon on the Mount and all.

Empathy.

The bounty ... the food, the medical supplies, the 'stuff we have in abundance'?

It would not BE THERE ... without the greed and the 'hoarding of wealth' and all that other stuff.

Look, I'm pretty damn 'socialist' at heart but look at the 'bounty' that was present in China and Russia prior to the 90's when they began to cast off 'communism' ... and get back to me WRT just how much 'bounty' there actually ends up BEING ... when you essentially take away the motivation for people to 'get ahead' in order to achieve some comfort and security for themselves.

Not only are WE a 'hierarchical' species by nature, just like all our close primate brethren ... it's also true that the very fabric of nature is set towards 'those who work hard, make smart choices, etc' ... are the ones who survive and thrive and pass along their genes.

I wholeheartedly applaud you, your kindness, you sound like someone I'd get on with very well, I probably share 99% of your values ... but at the same time, it's not realistic to force 'economic equality' onto the human race. We aren't 'wired that way' ... if there's no opportunity to 'get ahead', we won't be motivated, and there will BE no such 'bounty' as the one you're speaking of us having available to spread around now.

We should SHARE MORE, for sure. We should HELP MORE, and we should do more COLLECTIVELY for the Poor and Disadvantaged. NO DOUBT, my friend.

But all due respect, you're taking it a step too far by saying nobody should be allowed to 'hoard wealth while people starve' ... cause if NOBODY could hoard wealth ... we'd probably damn near all starve. See: Russia, China.

China and Russia were both authoritarian states akin to monarchies.

I'd reference Sweden, Denmark as examples -- democratic socialism with a small 's'. They're far happier than we are in every index.

To feed, clothe, shelter and educate every homeless person in the United States would cost less than a single nuclear submarine over ten years. It would cost less than we currently spend on political campaigns. It would cost less than what we spend on chewing gum. We could do it without breaking a sweat. The numbers are clear. And after it becomes the norm -- tax rates return to normal. What's the problem with that?

Your response is illuminating, however. It's kind of at the root of our problem. We could do it, but we won't -- because -- common sense? Irrelevant examples? Haven't seen the numbers?

If people have enough money to buy the government and subvert democracy, they've got enough to provide for the homeless among us. If people have so much money that they have to stash it in a foreign country to hide it, they've got enough to do the right thing.

Life would be better for everyone. The nation would be stronger. Period. Why not?

Every stitch in the fabric matters. The road we're on is disastrous for the wealthy -- that's historically demonstrable.

Your suggestion that eliminating homelessness would destroy the national welfare is part of the problem. You should rethink. It's a falsehood. Some conservative uncle's words echoing in your subconscious, perhaps.

ministering to 'one of the littlest ones'.

So, I thank you, from my heart to yours.

~sprink

Feed the hungry.
Give drink to the thirsty.
Shelter the homeless.
Visit the sick.
Visit the prisoners.
Bury the dead.
Give alms to the poor.

Thank you for all you do. You touched more than one life today!

“Or at least one of the best.”

She said that knowing full well that I’m a total and complete atheist and always will be. In fact, it was one of the reasons she married me. She’s still a faithful, devout Christian and probably always will be.

Both of us feel that there’s a whole lot more to Christianity than begging God for forgiveness (essentially a selfish act), asking God for stuff (even important stuff is essentially a selfish act), asking for divine intervention on behalf of other people ((essentially a selfish act because it’s literally the least you can do for someone). Worrying about heaven and hell (essentially a selfish act), worrying about the End Times (essentially a selfish act), worrying about one’s “sins” (essentially a selfish act), worrying about other people’s sins (essentially a selfish act and also makes you kind of an asshole).

Actually doing stuff? That’s hard. Not usually difficult in and of itself, but when compared to the difficulty level of wishing, hoping, and rhetorically requesting, it’s hard.
Helping other people? Hard.
Turning the other cheek? Hard.
Not holding onto hatred? Hard.
Having faith in something? Hard (and surprisingly few “fundamentalist” types have any real faith, in my experience)
Loving your neighbor? Hard.
Feeding the poor? Hard.
Reading the Bible and thinking about it for yourself, maybe even get some other viewpoints on parts? Virtually impossible for a lot of congregants, depending upon the congregation.

(Ironically, I simultaneously became both ethically Christian and devoutly atheistic as a young child attending Mike Huckabee’s church.)

...been a detriment to our advancement as a species. The vanity, fear and cognitive dissonance required for belief has no equal.

I’m a believer, and I agree with your post. It is inherent and incumbent on us to help those less fortunate. In my opinion, the true principles of Christianity have been distorted by the Evangelicals for political power. Those “Christians” who follow that are being led astray.

I am gratified to see some attention given to the negatives of the Evangelical movement, and to see some renewed interest in true, basic Christian principles (love Bishop Barber), and I sincerely thank you for your kindness to the homeless.

And I tell any front stoop preacher that come for a hand out, "you don't need god to help humanity".

I told one recently, "I'll take my donation right to the people who need it and cut out the middle man".

he didn't like that.

with reading comprehension and history. A lot of people can read, but many can't comprehend what they are reading, nor It's historical context. So, they let preachers, priests, and outright scoundrels do their comprehension for them. This of course leads people to misunderstand what and how to react in the present day world. I'm an atheist as well. I Don't just believe in the notion that we are all in this together; I try to live it.

Tell me this is a Christian nation, I ask them why they are against welfare programs. They claim the government should not be involved. Well? Why not? If it is a Christian nation why shouldn’t the government be involved? And more importantly, why aren’t rich people rushing to give away the extra wealth to help the poor? Remembering the camel and the needle, you’d think they would be afraid of not getting into heaven and positively rushing to get rid of it.

WAY better than many so-called “Christians” do.

Seems to me there are too many self-anointed “noisy gongs and clanging cymbals” St. Paul talks about in his Corinthians letters - busily distorting and thoroughly perverting Christ’s teachings.

I’m a Catholic school kid. Learned too much of the REAL stuff, not the manufactured fables of the “prosperity gospel” bullshitters. There are many ways that show how phony and outright heretical these hypocrites are:

They NEVER quote Matthew 25: 35-45, the Scripture passage about “whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to Me.”

They NEVER expound about the story of Jesus and the rich young man who came asking how to get involved with Him and was told: “go sell all you have, give the money to the poor, and come follow Me.”

They NEVER reference the Beatitudes, from the Sermon on the Mount, that actually do NOT say Thing One about “Blessed are the rich,” or “Blessed are the war-makers.”

They NEVER EVER bother with the directive Jesus gave when asked how we should pray. He endorsed going into a closet to pray because that’s an activity better kept between you and God, and NOT to be shown off or advertised or bragged about to promote how wonderful and holy you are. Our Lord said that’s getting a temporary and meaningless reward down here on earth from other mortals, NOT any heavenly reward bestowed by God that these phonies claim they seek.

Anybody remember the parable Jesus told about the rich man sashaying down the center aisle with big bags of gold to plunk down at the altar, so everybody could see and appreciate? The parable continues, turning to a widow hiding in the shadows in vet on the side, ashamed because all she had for an offering was a couple of pennies. Jesus said HERS was the offering that pleased God most. Jesus said God wasn’t impressed with the rich guy showing off in front of everybody with his big bags of gold, because he was getting his earthly “reward” down here instead of in Heaven.

And you NEVER hear these false prophets talking about any of those lessons. Those inconvenient truths are placed on ignore.

I discovered, after 14 years in it, that you go to Catholic school to generate material.

And to be reminded that one should never be that concerned about comforting the already-comfortable.

Dems haven't exactly leapt into action on the issue, but we aren't trying to legalize the hunting and eating of the homeless.

You have a long list of what the Christians ought not to be doing. One thing they do, which they perhaps ought not, is judge the actions of others.

I try to follow that myself. I was a member of the Episcopal Church for much of my young life, and decided I was not in agreement with their practice of faith, so I left. Like you I spent much time thinking about what they did wrong. I judged everything and found that most of it was wrong. My life did not improve.

I entered into a spiritual discipline which advocated a practice of not judging others, people or institutions. That did not mean approving of them, it merely meant not judging them. They are not of me, and what they are or do does not concern me. I am not responsible for what they do or do not do.

As a result today, I don't think much about Christians. I read about them and what they do without judgement, and as such they do not occupy any real estate in my mind when I am not actively engaged with them. They do whatever they do for whatever reason they do it, and it is really none of my business.

I am much happier. My life contains much less anger. I do not tire as easily. I am free to focus on things that matter, like how my wife is dealing with her cancer therapy and how I can assist her in that endeavor.

Thank you for your small part in this very large universe we live in.
It makes me so angry/sad/disgusted every time I think of all the "christian's" who don't follow the words of the Jesus they supposedly follow.

I’ve struggled a lot with psychiatric issues and alcohol abuse and I run into a lot of people who have experienced homelessness. They are people too.

A little compassion, patience, and treating everyone with dignity and respect makes the world s better place. It’s unfortunate that not everyone gets that.

So true. We are inundated with False Faith.

My evangelic boss once asked me: If you don't believe, how do you have any moral compass?

I was stunned for a minute. A person you've worked with for years, who has not kept it a secret about my belief.

Finally, I said: There were words for good and bad long before Jesus. I know that it's wrong to hurt people. I just don't need to see it written in a book to believe it.

Now I just say, Jesus wasn't a Christian either...

If God is love. People who thump the Bible are the Atheists, they just don't know it.

I hope you don't take offense at that and that the Atheists don't jump on me for saying that. But I feel like if all we do is assume that God is love and God's will is to love others, then we don't need titles like Christian and Atheist.

it reminded me of the times I have been in an urban area and keep money in my pocket to give away. I don't give a d *** what a person spends it on-it's a gift. If they ask, it's their's.

To clarify up front I graduated from a catholic university and have a minor in philosophy and religion.

I find the very foundations of Christianity to be ridiculous and disingenuous.

I find it disturbing that humans have tied humanity and/or ethics and/or morality to religion. You can have these things without religion. Even having never heard of any religion.

At the end of the day Christianity is none of these.

Unless a person, any person, jumps through its hoops and meet all its requirements within their blink of a eye lifespan of ~70 years, the price is eternal pain and suffering with no forgiveness and no reprieve from that pain and suffering.

In this “reason for season” and “season of forgiveness” let’s remember that, as far as Christianity is concerned, I as an atheist, no matter how good, kind and wonderful a person I am, no matter how honorable a life I lead, my eternal reward, as far as they are concerned, as far as the Bible is concerned, as far as the Prince of Peace is concerned, is a milllion million billion years of unending pain and suffering. Merry Christmas.

It is a minority opinion within Christianity that ALL will go to heaven, if for no other reason than it's contrary to the official teaching of the largest Christian church on the planet.

Whattabout...

Never no mind.

A minority 'opinion'. I don't hold that opinions hold h2o.

If some 'church' has an opinion. Well that's troublesome.

What's anybody seeking? Consolation, fellowship, joy, understanding or whatever else is a need?

So do you have a question for me?

What dost thou seeketh?

That is exactly what the Bible says...I mean, sure, there are more modern “translations” (I use the term loosely as many modern versions are incredibly poor and have not come close to the original Greek or Aramaic meanings or intent)
You doubt contention about what hell is and how it is talked about in the Bible? I would refer you to Luke 16: 16-31 (Aramaic-English direct translation). A story Jesus himself tells of a man doomed to suffer for all eternity, with no hope of reprieve or forgiveness, for his mistakes in life. That story even goes as far as saying that the only warning you are given is the “the word of Moses and the prophets”.
It’s one thing to jail a person because of something they did, even for life, but the operative word is “life”. Death is a release of sort but a Christian would not think twice about allowing that person to happily suffer for all eternity for that mistake. That is very next level.

I would also refer you to Book of Job, 1, 2 and 38-41 in which “god” and “satan” make a bet and god allows satan to torture Job, kill his family and generally destroy everything Job has and loves to makes Job understand that god controls everything and that everything Job has is because of god and he can take it away anytime he wants.

Another good point is that torture and suffering is a very common theme in the Bible and in the history of Christianity. It was a not uncommon occurrence in early Christianity for followers to do things to get themselves tortured or murdered to be martyrs and go straight to heaven.

Torture and suffering is not how we become better human beings and a poor framework for a faith.

"A Christian would not think twice....."
That's a hard statement and troubles me.

Early Christians chose martyrdom over denying Christ.
They found themselves in a situation and chose whatever treatment would befall them rather than deny their faith in Christ. They didn't necessarily 'do things' as in "oh, goody gumdrops" to get themselves deliberately tortured and killed.

Martyrdom/martyring takes many forms. Not just accepting torture and death. Denying self is one.

It is about having an inner moral core.

And yes, we have more than enough resources on this planet to take care of all inhabitants.
Greed and corruption prevent it from happening.

In fact, the political aspect of that version of Christianity has overshadowed the religious and spiritual aspects. The demands of Trump have become more important than the teachings of Jesus - not too long ago a Trump supporter was on TV saying he'd believe Trump over Jesus. If that's really their position, these people are not Christians at all, and they've allowed the political beliefs exemplified by Trumpism to negate their original Christian beliefs. I won't call Trump the Antichrist because I don't think there is such a being, but there is nothing about Trump and Trumpism that reflects the teachings of Jesus.

You want some paint to go with that broad brush, asshole?

I do not think you should call me an asshole.

Evangelical Christians routinely parade their moral superiority around while committing large-scale vicious acts of cruelty.

Did you not read the paragraph about my grandmother? Did you not read the post?

The only reason you should be sensitive is if you are a practicing Christian that hoards wealth while people starve.

Is that you?

support your stance with some facts if you feel so strongly

Why are you so angry? Aren't you angry at the majority of self-proclaimed Christians who vote conservative and thereby destroy the safety net and the funding for your homeless shelter?

WTF?

I have no problem with Christians following the dictates of their own bible. I have a problem with wealthy fake Christians choking off funds for helping homeless people.

Are you just having a bad day, or what?

Onward, Christian soldier!

is the automatic assumption that "true Christianity" = "GOOD."

First off, there is no one absolute definition of what true Christianity is, or what its "absolute" teachings are. That's why there are so many thousands of sects. There's a lot of bullshit in the bible, a lot of very bad teachings that have been (and still are) in the official doctrines of ALL Christian churches.

Secondly, to essentially state that non-Christians are better people when they are somehow following "true" Christianity is a slap in the face to all non-Christians.

What burned him was not a desire to adhere to any form of Christianity - it was compassion for his fellow human beings, which does not require ANY religion to feel.

And to end on: "And False Faith is worse than no faith at all."

Ouch. Thanks a lot.

"To state non-Christians are better people when they are somehow following ''true'' Christianity is a slap in the face to all non-Christians."

Did I ever state that -or- something that was interpreted from another angle?

I will give ya the "And False Faith is...."

Now I must go and take some aspirin.

You labeled my demeanor one time as being "folksy".
Sorry I annoyed you.

"What burned him..."
Do you mean "What burned IN him..."?

No faith at all is worse than False Faith. Is that better?

Orthodox Christianity is not a 'sect'.

We're not lumped in.

Ouch. Tanks alot.

(Ooh, sorry I went folksy again.)

Shucks.

is afforded, that's def shot down in flames. Or switch that around and it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

What is your idee of me, a hayseed?

Born and raised a city slicker.

Now, I gotta run and order 75-100 dolmathes and veggie kofte for our Christmas Eve Vigil supper. Wanna come down? You are most welcomed.

The food is not rich because it's still Nativity Fast. But the peoples are frennly and they huggg lots. One buddy squeezes the tarntation outta me!

This'll serve to take our minds off (albeit temporarily) from the disgusting/odious/hideous, etc. taxscam.

BTW, you're not the 'ski' I conversed with back in the early 2000's, so there's that.

Stay safe. Be well. Bye.

No exception here. Kindness goes a long way when you're homeless. That was cool what you did.

"It was a dark and stormy night."

"I was taking the cat poop out to the dumpster."

😄

This thread evolved into a thoughtful and enjoyable discussion of sorts. 🤓

Thoughts & Prayers. I've been told it brings the people doing the thinking/praying comfort. I've said who gives a fuck about that. What about the afflicted? One has said that there is noting better than prayer, and we went round-and-round on it, and I told him he was full of shit. That it's a cop-out for having to do anything. I even went to the conservative's least favorite gospel, James, because it actually backs me up in 16:2 where it essentially says in not so many words that thoughts and prayers without doing anything to accomplish them are worthless.

I know I get taken a few times because I'm a soft touch, but I recently looked at some of the things I bought from a trip to the store, and I estimated I had enough toilet paper to last me two months, and I, an atheist, felt the closest thing to being blessed as I could. Who cares if maybe the sob story some guy told me was a lie. I was out five bucks buying him a Little Caesar's pizza, and maybe the next person I help will really need it.

I want to do more, and I'm making some changes that will hopefully allow me to.

TlalocW

bathroom tissue! I love it!

I've been thankful for hot water, heat and cooling, a blanket on my bed, a place to lay my head, food to eat and a myriad of mb mundane stuff.

I am way grateful for our dogga daughter.

That is a beautiful way to think and ultimately be. You performed a selfless act and not judged if the person truly needed five bucks for a pizza pie or not.
I commend you! 💝