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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 12:58 PM Jul 2012

The Second Amendment does have a Meaning (IMO)

One of the beauties of America is that even though the SCOTUS defines the Constitution in practice we are free to hold, as citizens, that the SCOTUS has erred. Court decisions do not require that we stop thinking about an issue, and the Constitution can be Amended so, on paper, even the SCOTUS does not have the last word.

This is my interpretation of the intended meaning of the 2nd Amendment, not a record of how others have interpreted it. Had I been on the Supreme Court in 1800 this is what I would read the thing to mean.

The Bill of Rights was created as a series of limitations on the power of the Federal government vis-a-vis the people, and the States. The Bill of Rights was created to assuage people's fears of the Federal government and what it might do down the road.

After the Civil War and after the 14th Amendment there was a century+ long process of the incorporation of the 14th Amendment as courts applied the Constitution's limitations on the Federal government to State governments.

We are accustomed to think of the 2nd Amendment as expressing an intrinsic right of the People, akin to freedom of religion, but before incorporation even freedom of religion itself was not an intrinsic right of the People. It was a limitation on the Federal government. Congress shall make no law...

Looked at that way, I think the meaning of the 2nd Amendment is clear. The colonies had just gained their independence from England using, among other things, military force. If the Federal government (Which was still new and being shaped) became tyrannical the Colonies, now States, did not want the Federal government to make rebellion against the Federal government impossible by disarming the States and the People.

And since folks were still idealistic about the use of violence to overthrow tyranny, even the power of the People to overthrow a tyrannical State was in intellectual play.

The well regulated militia part is, to me, a statement that the States can regulate arms within the limits of whatever personal right exists, but of course the Federal government cannot.

As an assertion of both a State Right and a right of The People, the incorporation of the 2nd Amendment is tricky. The ban on Federal laws against a free press became expanded to include State laws. Arizona cannot outlaw newpapers. But the ban on Federal gun laws cannot simply be extended to a ban on State gun laws because the 2nd Amendment clearly grants some power of regulation of arms to the States.

Obviously the Federal government is not the power Regulating the militia, in the 2nd Amendment. So who regulates? The States.

But a state cannot entirely ban guns held by The People, either.

I am not describing how I think the world should be. I am describing what I happen to think the 2nd Amendment (which I did not write) means.

Federal Gun laws should meet the same test as Federal laws infringing speech or religion.

States can have whatever gun laws they want short of a total ban, as long as they meet a low-threshold rational basis sort of test.

That's how I would read it. The personal right to own guns is a very limited right vis-a-vis the State government. It is a broad right vis-a-vis the Federal government.

I would support Constitutional Amendment to change all that. But I think an Amendment would be required.

8 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Second Amendment does have a Meaning (IMO) (Original Post) cthulu2016 Jul 2012 OP
I'm no gun-lover, but snot Jul 2012 #1
Excellent and well reasoned post SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2012 #2
thanks! snot Jul 2012 #3
To me, the utility of arm as a safeguard of freedoms cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #4
Similarly, snot Jul 2012 #5
A practical distinction today is that cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #6
Yes, thx. I think there's value in those "penumbral effects" -- snot Jul 2012 #7
. cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #8

snot

(10,530 posts)
1. I'm no gun-lover, but
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 01:11 PM
Jul 2012

there needs to be a balance of power between a people and their government. The government can't be allowed to have all the power and the people none.

A balance of power requires a balance in possession of the sources of power.

There are various kinds of power arising from various sources. Main sources include money, information (including info distribution networks such as the media, education, p.r., and the internet), and weapons.

Therefore, a balance of power requires a balance in the possession of those sources.

It seems to me that their recognition of these basic principles at least in certain ways was part of the genius of the Founding Fathers.

I think we should in fact be strengthening those kinds of balances, e.g. by increasing protections against excessive consolidation of ownership of the media or banks, not decreasing them.

The exact balance between control of weapons as between the people vs. their gov't or other constituencies probably needs to be revised from time to time in response to changes in weapons technologies and other factors.

But I think we need to be careful about limiting the rights of the people to bear arms.

I do also think one needs to keep shooting incidents in perspective. Every liberty can be and is abused; e.g., drivers' licenses are abused all the time and bad driving kills enormously greater numbers of people every year. If you look up the causes of deaths in the US, the percentage attributable to shootings is relatively tiny.

B.t.w., I do not own a gun, doubt I ever will, and do not enjoy them.

But I'm glad that other people do; because frankly, over all, I trust both them and my own government more, knowing that BOTH have them.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
4. To me, the utility of arm as a safeguard of freedoms
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 01:17 PM
Jul 2012

vis-a-vis the government is an historical relic... something that was once central, but that makes little sense in the wake of the Civil War.

I do not know that the right of the People to bear arms is a restraining factor in many government decisions today.

But it was thought to be when the thing was written.

snot

(10,530 posts)
5. Similarly,
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 01:22 PM
Jul 2012

Glass-Steagall worked so well that for 50 years, there were no economic bubbles or meltdowns. So bankers argued that it was a historical relic, no longer needed; we repealed it, and quickly returned to the pattern of having a bubble and bust ca. every 10 years, a pattern that was "normal" during every period of known history prior to Glass-Steagall.

It may seem like we don't need arms to protect ourselves from our government anymore because we haven't needed them so long as we've been allowed to have them. But I don't think it's worth giving them up to find out.

P.S.: I'm pretty sure the 1%-er's would be glad to see the 99% disarmed.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
6. A practical distinction today is that
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 01:29 PM
Jul 2012

the Federal government has a practical monopoly on military power. (Which was not the case in the 1780s)

So the idea of the State or the People overthrowing the Federal government, or even protecting themselves from its dictates, are far-fetched.

On the other hand (agreeing with you here) it is hard to sort out the penumbral effects of an armed populace. Government will never explicitly accede to fear of popular arms, but it is "out there."

snot

(10,530 posts)
7. Yes, thx. I think there's value in those "penumbral effects" --
Sun Jul 22, 2012, 01:35 PM
Jul 2012

in a similar way, even though paper ballots can be forged or destroyed, it's a hell of a lot harder to do, esp. without leaving evidence, than it is to flip votes in many of the electronic machines or tabulators used now.

Hurdles to bad action do tend to decrease or slow it down, and just bec. they're not perfect doesn't mean they're worthless.

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