at her home. I'm guessing, but I bet those dogs weren't raised to be friendly dogs. That's not a good mix with pit bulls.

their pack of pit bulls. Think white wing gunners who proudly display confederate flags.

And the only person I know who owns a pit-bull is a family member. Super-sweet dog, but I'm generally wary of pit-bulls and wouldn't want it around my dogs.

concealed carry permit office, etc., own confederate flags.

But anyway, can you provide any support for your contention that "a bunch of folks" at ranges, gun stores, and gun shows or "concealed carry permit office" (what is that, by the way?), own confederate flags? And not some random picture but actual statistical support.

Setting aside the fact that you keep moving the goal posts, what am I supposed to look up? Are "rabid NRA supporters" different from regular NRA supporters, who presumably are different from the group you first identified? I'm not sure I've ever seen an article that equates "rabid NRA supporters" with owning dangerous pit bulls. I don't suppose you have any evidence for that claim either?

Apologies for jumping the gun on my response. But I think the question is a fair one--any sort of statistical support for the claim that "rabid" NRA supporters/gun jumpers are also fans of the confederate flag and aggressive pit-bulls? And what makes you think I'm defending "rabid gun jumpers"? Asking you to support your position isn't defending the acts of someone else.

I'd dig in on this irrelevancy as well if I desired the pretense of cleverness.

I'd also lie to myself and rationalize it as relevant.

Whether someone supports the NRA or is a fan of confederate flags has nothing to do with whether their dog might be prone to violence. Irrelevant as you say.

At first I just noticed all of the very large wooden crosses in front yards. Then I thought I saw a Gazelle so I pulled over and got out of the car with my camera. Guy had about fifty of them from what I could see. Not a big plot of land or anything.

I heard the first group of dogs before I took my first picture. They were fenced in across the street but I still got right back in my car. The three Pit’s had anger issues.

Two more Pit’s came out of the driveway of the house with the Gazelles a minute later. They were not restrained and also had anger issues. I drove away with them wanting a piece of my car.

That’s when I noticed house after house with Pit’s or Rottweilers. It was a Florida summer day and most were laying under trees. One I saw was chained to a tractor tire and I’m certain it could drag it.

Other than attitude they were stunning dogs. Extremely muscular and it didn’t look like they missed any meals.

We'd pull up at some old farm house in North Georgia out in the middle of nowhere and I'd start getting out. He'd grab me and say wait. Sure as chit, a big pack of dogs would come running out showing teeth.

We are talking Deliverance country.

here in Florida is like that. Our own is just a short road off a highway ending at our place, but my neighbor and I never extend our walks over there because of a large number of aggressive dogs. Chain link fences are expensive these days, so a fair number in a low-income neighborhood is a very good initial clue that pedestrians had better be very cautious. Standard height is much too short to stop a real dog attack.

As I said on another post, a friend's daughter's pit bull went over her taller board fence one day and killed a woman out for her daily walk. "Nice" dog. She'd even walked over to be petted the couple times I saw her.

Some local knowledge

Last edited Sat Dec 16, 2017, 05:45 PM - Edit history (1)

racism, GOPers, etc.

I'm not the only one who believes this. Here's a little bit from the Anti-Defecation League: (Edit Defamation. Sorry.)

"The pit bull has long been used as a skinhead symbol, presumably because of its reputation as a "fighting" dog. Many racist skinheads and other white supremacists own or even raise pit bulls. White supremacists use one specific pit bull graphic so often that it has become a white supremacist symbol itself. One racist skinhead group, the Keystone State Skinheads (at one time known as Keystone United) even adopted it as part of their logo.

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/pit-bull



I don't know for a fact that this lady is like that, but I know what I think of when I see a confederate flag hanging in someone's house.

Just saying

house. You are arguing something I am not saying.




Again, I'm speculating based upon my experiences with people with confederate flags. I'm not saying she deserved to be attacked. I am saying that if she or others living with her raised those dogs as I suspect, one can't really be surprised at the results.

I think a lot of people use these types dogs to show toughness in themselves. I can't say I see a lot of skinheads anyway.

Near my Mom's house is this family that I have seen be deliberately mean to their pit bull just to keep it barking and dangerous.

They tease it. Snap at it. All while it is tied up on a short leash to a tree.

It's how these dogs are trained that matters.

You can NEVER eliminate it, but you can train around it. For example, you should never let this type of dog get worked up like watching the neighbors cat walk across your yard.

The training required to keep these guys is more than just a puppy class. Lots of work required. Most are not prepared to do what is needed to keep such a dog.

Loving it and treating it like a kid is not going to help

Mistreat any dog and you can have problems. You should never let any dog get worked up watching a cat.

Dogs are working animals. NILIF approach is best for almost all dogs. Stimulation of their mind and reinforcement of whose in charge

I am surprised you have not done so already. Posting about it on a message board does nothing to help those poor dogs.

If I thought calling the police could do something, I would have.

It's deep in the heart of Brooklyn. Cops don't respond to nuisance dog calls.

I'm just wanting to get my Mom out of there, but it's been her home for almost 50 years.

I didn't post here to help the dogs, ya know?

They are animal aggressive and have it in their genetic make up to love to fight. That’s kinda the breeding model and has been for centuries. Those owners wouldn’t tolerate a people aggressive animal. They’d be killed. They want to make money on the deal and are generally quite well off.

But why she was doing it is anyone's guess

of the high concentration of PB's owned by the Black living in city limits.

What a frustrated group this "league" must be, uncomfortable and self-loathing while also hating everyone else. I'll bet their meetings are very interesting, too!

One dog plus one living anything, like a human for instance, is a pack.

Sure, dogs are pack animals. People in a sense are also. People join together both in violent militias, and in disaster relief efforts. People function in groups, not all groups are the same.

I work in dog care. Where I work three yards are fenced in together and the dogs in care come and go from the house into the yard, and sleep in the home of the business owner on couches and dog beds throughout the house. Maybe 60 dogs are regulars and on any given day between 5 to 20 of them could be present. They experience themselves as a pack and all come to know each other and maintain friendships with each other. Some want to be more dominant than others but each dog knows we are the pack leaders and that we do not tolerate aggressive behavior between them. They chill with each other and they "apologize" immediately if we have to reprimand them for anything. They seek our love and attention. They are relaxed, and as friendly to those who have reason to come onto the property as a group as each one of them would be individually.

Yes, not properly supervised and poorly socialized dogs can embolden each other in negative ways when in packs. In that way those dogs do become more dangerous in groups. But groups of dogs (packs) can be delightfully playful and loving and very attentive to the wants and needs of their pack leader or leaders - their loving and responsible people.

And the instances of families with two or three dogs who all get along lovingly with each other and those around them are too numerous to call attention to. It depends on the dogs and the people. Some people should not have one dog, let alone two or more of them.

6 to 12 dogs in her house, all of them getting along with each other.

One day while her husband was out the dogs held her hostage in the corner of the garage for 3 hours until he came home.

Great hunting dogs, but they can be very aggressive. She was absolutely terrified.

Had a nasty streak. American version gsps are pretty docile. Even the modern Kurzhaars don't have that edge anymore.

Oh my God, they are NOT.

On an Ahnentafel of Kurzhaars, but it was not common.

American lines are just docile. I suspect most lines were watered down with English pointer blood by unscrupulous breeders.

Rawhides Clown was a pointer with a docked tail and no one will convince me otherwise. He also threw pups that just liked to run and is generally a dog I try to avoid in a pedigree.

Seriously?

They could be civil, but I doubt that's what happened here , the lines are not common. However, you never know

Somebody seriously messed these dogs up if your story is true.

Also, we had a GSP as a family pet when I was growing up. Before he was 2 years old he had bitten everyone in the family and we had to have him put down. The vet said that it was "bad breeding".

It's a result of poor breeding. Dog sees a cat, raccoon, deer, etc. Prey drive kicks in. Dog gets WAY TOO agitated. 22 year old tiny woman is completely unable to control two powerful dogs. Probably does not even have proper collars. She cannot redirect them, but tries. Dogs in highly agitated state, now in complete RED ZONE DRIVE. A man my size with a two by four might have a shot, her??? Nope.

Dog bites, she screams and flails. This excited the dog. It goes deeper into prey drive. Other dog joins in. It feels the energy and is now in the RED ZONE.

That's how this shit happens.

a pit-lab mix, was jumped on by a bunch 3 yorkies without a leash while I was walking him. He just hid between my legs while the 3 little Yorkies barked at him. Poor dog!

The owners were very nice people who raised her very gently from a pup. She got a lot of attention, play time, and walk run time.

I love dogs and think that i understand them but she was a handful. We collectively made sure she had adequate physical outlets. She needed it. I would wrestle with her in the back yard and play tug of war with her with some old tube socks tied together. The physical play was her safety valve. If she did not get that physical play time for a few days she would get wound up and exhibit exactly the kind of behavior you describe. Like when one of us would get home from work and open the door she would do somerhing like bolt out the door and chase down the neighbors cat while you yelled stop. She would usually just sort of run over the cat and not bite it.
In the summer I would run 3 or 4 miles with her every evening. If we were all going to be away for the weekend I would drive her 45 miles to my parents house so they could watch her (and she wasn't even my dog).

She was a member if the family.

She a very bright dog and she a sense of the hierarchy of the pack and it seem to cause confusion for her. Her male owner was the alpha but I was also a male and due to work schedules I spent more time with her. She seemed to try and push her boundaries and needed a dominate presence to guide her . Her female owner would at times let her out on her own to do her business in the early morning and it would drive me nuts. I caught her once as she had our neighbor in a standoff as he tried to get into his BMW with his three piece on. I ran out and grabbed her and hoisted her up and apologized profusely
I loved the dog but made the decision that I would never own one or trust my kids around one when that time came.

Totally different

A possible scenario is that they met a strange dog, a fight started, she stepped in to try to stop it, and after she was inadvertently injured they turned on her.

More likely is they saw a deer, squirrel, or really anything that triggered that drive. They got excited, turned on her in their heightened drive out of frustration.

If they we're in defense drive from another dog, they likely would not have killed her. Defense ends when the threat is eliminated.

It's why pits are shitty in general at schutzhund work. They only have prey drives and never operate out of defense. It's not a good attribute for a protection dog.

I read once that pit bulls may not display signs of potential attack ahead of time, like with ears and tails. Is that something you believe to be the case?

Pits operate in prey drive. Does a lion roar before it pounces on a zebra? Of course not. Those postures/ displays are from defense drives. "Don't mess with me or I will hurt you!"

Prey drive is not precluded with postures. It's hunting. It's silent, fast, and each attack is meant to kill.

Defense is loud, ostentatious, and attacks are in areas not made to cause real damage.

I have to ask, how do you know it was her dogs that killed her? It very well could have been a third dog or fourth or fifth.

Its pretty obvious if they had done it. Why put on the tinfoil hat?

Said it appears to have been her dogs. Granted the reporter took that and ran with it but the word "appears" implies there is no definitive proof it was her dogs. I'm not saying it wasn't and I'm not saying it was and I grant you it may have been.

The article does not mention discovery of human remains in her dogs mouths which would be something investigators could be checking for I would think.

I think it's pretty obvious

You would have to see if it was the victims as it could have been the perpetrators.

I want to once again state it may very well have been her own dogs but there is no conclusive evidence given in this article. It was gruesome yes. Her pit bulls may have been covered in blood I didn't see that in the article but it is possible. Even so, a proper investigation would include a thorough analysis of both the dogs mouths and stomach content and not just an assumption based on initial impressions.

I'm going to go ahead and laugh under the assumption that you're making a funny comment.

for solving numerous crimes by instinctively not taking fatal events at face value.

The important thing is to discount anything that's not obvious.

Pretty obvious...

I've posted similar in years past to angry mobs who take extreme stances ignoring the basic understanding of the non-breed pitbull type canine. It can have wonderful characteristcs but the basic kill instinct bread through pit fighting is still innate and very likely still sits just under the surface. It's a dog one needs a lot of experience to own.

Another interesting case is the Timber Wolf or mixes that surface from time to time. They are workable but the owners life is in danger if they so much as cut their finger. Blood is the trigger. Basic blood or hunting instincts are nothing to fool with in certain canines.

after a squirrel. I have a tree house about 6 feet off the ground for my grandson and they literally ran right up the tree after the squirrel. I never before saw dogs run up a tree, but their adrenaline was off the wall.

They dug under my fence and charged me and bit my dog, but luckily my screaming and rock throwing made them run off.

You cannot let high prey drive dogs get like that. It's dangerous

I listened to the news, but they never mentioned how many dogs she was walking. Just wondering if the possible pack-went pack.

According to another article I read.

Yup, I knew it.

I am confused.

As sure as the sun sets in the west.......

Thanks for clarifying.

Most people have no business owning these dogs

Newfoundlands or Newfies, on the other hand are often referred to as Nanny dogs. Huh. I like pitbulls in general but are often raised poorly. The last thing I would call them is a nanny dog

Perpetuated by people who have a thimble full of dog sense.

These are big, powerful, and breed dogs. They are serious dogs that require serious owners. Many people get them to "prove" they know what they are doing. Mostly they just get lucky and get a good natured dog.

Those who deny the power of genetics just don't get it. Try to get an English breed show lab to take a blind line 400 yards. Most cannot, but a field trial breed lab will hammer down with enthusiasm.

Get an American showline German shepherd and put him in prey drive to hit the sleeve. Most just don't care. Now go get a Czech bred or DDR bred and watch a four month old puppy hit that flirt pole with gusto.

Owning serious dogs has lots of requirements. Mine are on concrete and priefert kennels when not in the house or the yard training with me. Simply housing them is different.

But this is the first time I've ever heard pit bulls called Nanny dogs, in real life or here on DU (Not disputing it happens though)and agree it's total BS.

Newfoundlands are the true Nanny Dogs.

http://nannydog.info/nanny-dog-breeds/newfoundland/

The Newfoundland is the archetype nanny dog. Nana the Newfoundland in the story of Peter Pan was hired by Mr. Darling to be his children’s nanny. This is the origin of the concept “nanny dog” which we celebrate on this website. J.M. Barrie wrote the play Peter Pan which was first produced on stage in 1904, and based Nana on his and his wife Mary’s own Newfoundland named Luath. Mary once said, “Luath’s proper place was the nursery. How happy he would have been if there had been one, full of gloriously noisy children!”


I'd no sooner have a pit bull or even a mixed breed dog I knew nothing of as far as breed serve as a nanny to my children than I would have a labrador serve as an attack dog because of the long history of breeding that emphasized the traits each breed is known and chosen for.

It is bullshit.

Pit breeders suck.

Tell me about the breed tests that responsible pitbull breeders put their dogs through to ensure the animals are physically and mentally sound. What does the national breed club recommend? What are the breeding goals of a reputable pit bull breeder? Where can I find the records like the stud book?

Oh yeah, there are none...

Just a bunch of irresponsible people breeding crap dogs indescrimently that are filling up shelters.

again and again at a guessing 16' fence topped with razor wire that I was walking by on the OTHER side of a wide but quiet commercial boulevard. They couldn't get over and were trying to get through it to kill me.

They were brought each day by specially clothed handlers to protect some kind of welding operation. But in any case, I thought it was just training of selected ordinary shepherds that produced that and wondered at it. Obviously not.

Even the bite work stuff is just a game. The real dogs, the serious ones, they call them "civil", the true man stoppers are usually specially bred litters and breeders only sell them to the police or military

I have never owned a pit bull, but I have owned MANY dogs. All of them except the latest were rescues of uncertain origins and environments.

EACH ONE was an individual with individual personalties. Each one had its own unique set of needs. GSDs are my favored breed. I had one that was the gentlest creature ever to breathe air. Another was quite the opposite.

"Pit bulls" (<--a made up catch-all name, not a breed) are no different. Each animal is unique.

From field trial retrievers, schutzhund and IPO, and NAVDHA. I've even worked with APHIS professional hunters for depredation hunts with hounds.

I have a minor in ethology and studied under Ann Beckhoff and her husband. Carolyn Rosteau too who is a protege of Donald Griffin.

I have studied pedigrees and breed books and produced a few litters of VHD dogs that won me a breeders award.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Period.

I still miss my Weim.

For hunting. The instinct is diluted as they have turned into pets and bred for looks rather than ability.

There are still good weims in Europe, but not many pups get imported. They are expensive and really cannot do anything a well bred pudelpointer or Deutsch Kurzhaar can't do better for was less money. There are a few fanciers here who have good ones, but waiting lists are long.

Americans and the British have a knack for ruining breeds