It would not surprise me in the least.


Edit: spelling

Stein's votes made the difference in something like 3 of them. I don't know about my state of Florida, Trump beat Clonton by around 250k here, will check to see how many votes Stein got in Florida when I can find the stomach to look.

I think the Stein vote was a protest against Hillary for the most part. Thus, I think her candidacy was irrelevant to the ultimate outcome.

In fact, a small share of the Stein votes might have gone to Trump if anywhere.

Just a thought.

The Stein voters should have known this too.

So they had a decision to make: vote for the candidate who could defeat Trump or not....

They chose not to do anything to stop Trump.

Purists....as in....pure Trump enablers

Google it. More like 110,000.

Not only that but there was massive voter disenfranchisement and probably vote count manipulation.

She STILL would have lost the state to Trump.

Fuck her...why do you defend Greens?

And I agree about Wisconsin and Michigan-btw, you do realize that I spent the fall of '16, when I wasn't out doorbelling(canvassing)for Hillary, making an anti-fascist case on social media for progressives to vote Hillary, right?-I was simply observing that Stein didn't make any difference in Florida.

My point is that we can't change people's minds by screaming at them about past choices-the way to change people's minds is, at least in part, to listen to their explanations for those choices and to be responsive to that as a party.

The two parties are not "the same", but we needed to make a better, more positive case-and we could have done that simply by leading with our platform, since ideas matter as much as who we nominate-for why progressives should vote FOR us.

Maybe a few small adjustments on policy-the TPP thing, and a statement from our nominee that she recognized that even a just use of force was, at some level, a tragedy-could have made a huge difference, and can in the future. We no longer have to be just as hawkish as the GOP and we no longer have to make a show of being "pro-business"-it's ok to say we regard force as strictly a last resort and to say that business is simply ONE part of life, rather than being more important than everything else.

If it worked to rant about people voting Green presidentially, nobody would have voted for Stein.

Doing that is totally ineffective on a practical level and doesn't lead us to a winning strategy for the future.

That's all I'm saying.

Thanks.

All I've done is argue for the party to avoid wasting time on things that don't work.

"...we can't change people's minds by screaming at them about past choices-the way to change people's minds is, at least in part, to listen to their explanations for those choices and to be responsive to that as a party."

Your refusal to provide objective data to support these allegations and editorials is most consistent.

Yet without data, there is no practical. Without data, there is no strategy.

That's all I'm saying, part deux.

Link to tweet

They still refuse to face reality - and likely the ones complaining the most about trump.

We support Democrats here.

That's BS. Those were not Hillary votes that Stein "siphoned." They were protest votes (the voters clearly knew she had no chance of winning) against Hillary. I bet for them it was Stein or stay home.

At least they had the self respect not to cast a protest vote for tRump, unlike some others.

Last edited Tue Dec 19, 2017, 11:24 AM - Edit history (1)

... the predicate that Stein "stole", "siphoned", etc. votes from Clinton, as Nader "did" to Gore in 2000, rests on a false assumption: that people who voted Green would vote Democratic if the Green were not on the ballot. There's a raft of exit polling data that demonstrates that many of these folks would not be voting at all were there not a Green on the ballot. Certainly in 2016 it was shown that disaffected and disillusioned Democrats chose Gary Johnson to same degree -- or greater -- than they chose Stein.

(For those of you needing evidence of this contention, just look at this breakdown of the Florida electorate from 2000 by Jim Hightower, published before the SCOTUS made W. Bush's selection official.)

Now it gets really ugly for the Gore campaign, for there are two other Florida constituencies that cost them more votes than Nader did. First, Democrats. Yes, Democrats! Nader only drew 24,000 Democrats to his cause, yet 308,000 Democrats voted for Bush. Hello. If Gore had taken even 1 percent of these Democrats from Bush, Nader's votes wouldn't have mattered. Second, liberals. Sheesh. Gore lost 191,000 self-described liberals to Bush, compared to less than 34,000 who voted for Nader.

It is far easier to blame somebody else than to look in the mirror.

against Hillary...hope she goes to jail. She will if she took money from the Russians.

Screw every person who voted Green and a double screw to those who are members of this sorry 'party'...right wing vote siphoning machine.

Sure.

She loves the attention, and, like Trump, is probably easily manipulated.

Last edited Mon Dec 18, 2017, 10:16 PM - Edit history (1)

she knowingly tried to hurt the US. She was probably told she was the only thing that could save it. Useful idiot.

That picture of her at the table with Vlad is too damning.

I usually catch it. Autocorrect then sometimes adds to the confusion.

Interesting-- I'm a good speller (not great), and I realized recently that I don't see the letters, but as you say, the shape of the words, to know I have it right. It's intriguing how minds and eyes work.

for me. I am a form person rather than a language person. You obviously see the shape of words exactly. I see the shape vaguely, like a metaphor.

What percentage of votes did she receive in the swing states?

Here:

In two key states that President-elect Donald Trump won, his margin of victory was smaller than the total number of votes for Green Party nominee Jill Stein.

In Michigan, Trump defeated Democrat Hillary Clinton by 10,704 votes, while Stein got 51,463 votes, according to current totals on the state’s official website.

And in Wisconsin, Trump’s margin over Clinton was 22,177, while Stein garnered 31,006 votes.


http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/308353-trump-won-by-smaller-margin-than-stein-votes-in-all-three

Would it have changed anything in the outcome of the election had those Stein voters just stayed home?

Think about it. Had they wanted to vote for Hillary, they would have.

I think their votes were irrelevant.

Bernie was who they would have been listening to if stein had not run. And during the election period he was pro Hillary.

that smile right off her traitorous face.

I think that Jill Stein (and perhaps Sen Sanders, unwittingly, as well) was encouraged to remain in the Presidential race to siphon votes away from Sec Clinton. The Russians may even have contributed to her campaign.

Sen Sanders and his supporters were "played" into sabotaging the Dem party by Russian trolls who insisted they were Bernie supporters and who had witnessed Bernie votes being trashed at the local dump by the DNC - I even heard a couple of callers to Thom Hartmann's and Stephanie Miller's show complaining about this in October. These calls made me scratch my head as the DNC doesn't count the primary votes, the office of the Sec of State of that particular state counts the votes. Months later, after the attack on the election thru US social media by Russian trolls was announced, I deduced that these callers may have been Russian trolls still at work spreading propaganda thru the media...

The first Steele story contained info about Russian Money flowing to Steins Campaign. Call it what you want,she was a willing participant. Notice we have never heard a peep out of her running mate after Nov 8.

All the third party candidates combined totaled about 5%, and Gary Johnson got about 3x what Stein did (1%). Does your ire at 3rd party candidates extend to him too?

Might also have had an effect on Sanders and Stein, made them think that the 'right' thing to do was challenge her. Certainly the constant negative crusade had an effect on some of their followers-- and we do not yet know yet how much the Russians influenced that coverage.
We might never really know how much the irrational Hillary-hate came from this unrelenting Russian support of Trump and destruction of her-- playing into 20 years of hate from the rightwing.

Putin knew that and no doubt helped Stein.

Would that have been better?

I have no sympathy for Greens.

stay home...costing us not only the presidency but Congress as well...fuck Stein and all the Greens...hope she goes to jail.

And I'm sure it is.

Was it a banquet celebrating--in front of Dog and everybody--the subversion of American democracy? Was it a planning meeting? A conference of co-conspirators, complete with photographers?




Has everyone gone nuts?

She took advantage of us, we were so stunned and broken hearted, so vulnerable to her BS. I sent her money like an idiot.

I voted for Clinton, and like others wanted a recount.

Seems like a waste of time.

I agree....as well as members of Congress....

Just like Der Trumpenfuhrer

Fucking over the country for cash?

...in my mind that she was on the payroll of Daddy Vlad....

Once we found out about the Russian meddling and they saw the pic of her in Moscow (Flynn was there too) I had no doubt.

It was that and a money grab for her, period.

from the primaries to the DNC convention.

One might ask that question going back at least to Ralph Nader, if you consider the Republican Party to be a subsidiary of the KGB.

Wonder why so many chose to vote 3rd party? Easier to blame the boogeyman instead of the uncomfortable truth. If we don't learn, this will keep happening. No ooga booga conspiracy theories needed. 😉

Also hurts to realize yes many voted for Trump - no fraud needed. Just the morons outnumbered the sane. There are indeed that many idiots. Most don't vote anyway. We got what was coming to us, and it needs to be faced honestly.

I know it's easier to blame, rant & attack but ah well. I'll just shut up now. Rant away lol