positively to anything Netanyahu says. He curdles my stomach, since he decided to work around our President and disrespect him.

Although the fact that HE is saying it is a good start.

I guess it doesn't make sense to me that all the Jews should run to Israel and cower in an 'us against the world' pose.

It also makes me wonder if this would then be used to justify further intrusion into Palestinian territory.

With his election coming up, this is probably meant to inspire a sense of solidarity among his constituents, so that the resultant patriotic swell would carry him through the election.

I read this article yesterday. They will build more houses and develop more settlements making the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians even worse.

Honestly I think you (and myself) are right. He is willing to do anything to make things worse. If he gets reelected it will be a shame.

And at the same time, the statistics are way up for French Jews immigrating to Israel from France in recent years. This is a personal decision for each individual to make.

" we were fooled the first time. There will be no second time. Good luck with your new friends. Hope your country survives. Au revoire."

...neither is a recent phenomenon.

Last edited Mon Feb 16, 2015, 07:28 AM - Edit history (2)

Upon my 8th reading, I sort of see, between the heaping dump truck levels of snark, that the Jews should just leave France and say "Fuck You, France". That is exactly what France and Europe refuse to accept, while all the time trying to maintain order for all citizens, while intelligently communicating in the media that leaving Europe to move to Israel (or Canada, or the USA) is a personal decision, deeply tragic for Europe, but understandable, of course.

France is not responsible for Radical Islam. Islamic Radicals are responsible for Radical Islam.

The French army was defeated by Hitler in WWII, just like every other continental government in Europe except the USSR, and then France was occupied by the Nazis for 4 years, with all the subsequent horror. Is that what your "we were fooled the 1st time" snark is referring to? What a dirty low thing to say.

Snark in situations where people have recently been assassinated is rarely productive to the conversation. Add in the stupid, and the mix becomes intolerable.

They have never protected the Jewish people.

France Responsible in WWII Deportations

PARIS, Feb. 16 -- France's highest administrative tribunal ruled Monday that the French government was responsible for the deportation of thousands of Jews to Nazi death camps during World War II.

The ruling, by the Council of State, marked the clearest and most authoritative official admission of responsibility for the still-controversial role of the collaborationist Vichy government in the treatment of Jews during four years of German occupation. It said French authorities helped deport Jews even without being forced to by the occupying German army, rejecting an interpretation still clung to by some French people unwilling to confront the history of what happened.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/16/AR2009021601294.html

You give a half-truth, omitting the War fought by French Army '39-'40, Nazi Occupation of France, and the FR Resistance

The Nazis admitted that their deportation program in France was a failure.

Yes, there were French Collaborators with the Nazis.
Yes, the Nazi occupiers and the Vichy Occupation government deported Jews.

Yes there were French Resisters against the Nazis.
Yes some French resisted the deportations, and hid Jews (so did other Nazi occupied European countries), killed Nazis to prevent what was happening, and were executed by Nazis for helping to save Jews.

Yes, some French did nothing and just tried to stay alive during the Occupation.

Washington Post is not what I would call a historical source worth reading.

that never happened. Ok, got it. I hope the remaining Jews get out of France ASAP.

"En honorant ceux qui ont refusé de se plier à la fatalité de la volonté exterminatrice de l'idéologie nazie, la médaille des Justes contribue à rétablir l'Histoire dans sa vérité."

Simone Veil

Either way, you can't fight one form of bigotry by supporting others.

Or so it seems to me. I would think that European Jews would bring in the European political attitudes that used to prevail in Israel.

It's open season on jews in Europe and we all know why.

Let these countries deal with it without them.

How so?

Also the "Why"; sounds to me like typical paranoia.

Because so many non-European immigrants have failed to assimilate into the dominant culture and are segregated geographically radicalism has flourished. This is evident by the number of murderous attacks in Europe by relatively young Muslims over the past several years.

Because the underlying problems are not being addressed, it's only going to get worse.

Fwiw I don't agree with bibi about Jews leaving but let's not kid ourselves that there isn't a serious problem with radicalization and terrorist affiliation among young Muslims.

And in Europe it does seem to be amongst the second generation. The parents move to somewhere like France, make a life for them and their kids and do well. Then the kids get bored/into crime/go to prison/share a cell with some radical extremist/get brainwashed/get out/attack innocent people. So I guess the question is what do governments like France do about it? And do it so no minority group is being discriminated against because of who they are. There's obvious things like more social services and employment and less areas of high density low-income housing (my local govt bulldozed some 1970 era complexes and built medium density housing spread amongst the suburbs instead), working closely with community leaders and listening to what they have to say, and stuff like that.

OK...see, it seems to go like this repeatedly: Attack upon a group or iconic place followed by an attack on a Jewish place, whether a Kosher Shop, a synagogue, or a similar place of assemblage. Was that clear enough for you?

Bibi and his Likud party keep expanding settlements into Palestinian territory despite it being against all international law. Bibi's IDF continues to treat Palestinians like animals not worthy of kindness or justice. Just worthy of a bullet.

Perhaps these FACTS are driving some Antisemitism. You know, just like when the whites in South Africa abused and mistreated the indigenous peoples of that land.

It's not anti-democratic if I accuse the US government of atrocities.

You are so caught up in the meme that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic when it is not.

Bibi allowing and supporting settlements in the occupied territories in contradiction of international law is just wrong and illegal. There is nothing anti-Semitic about trying to hold governments to international standards.

Most Jews don't live in Israel. Many, outside and inside Israel, oppose all that Netanyahu's government stands for,

"Jewish" and "Israeli" are not synonymous terms. And Netanyahu has no right to act as if he speaks for every Israeli, let alone every Jewish person in the world.

Netanyahu is trying to encourage the spread of antisemitism and he doesn't care who he endangers or harms with his demagogy.

If you actually care about Israel, and truly want to strike a blow against antisemitism, you need to be doing whatever ou can to encourage the defeat of all of the hate-and-fear based parties of the Israeli right. It's about them as much as it is about "Islamic extremists".

The Jewish people, by default, support Bibi by voting for his Likud party. By voting for his party Jewish Israalis are just as complicit in his actions as are the people in the US complicit in the horrible drone strikes and wars the US has prosecuted in the Middle East.

Why is it Antisemitic to call out them for mistreating Palestinians in defiance of international law? I don't have a problem with them being Jewish. I have a problem with their actions and mistreatment of Palestinians.

It is not anti-Semitic to criticize Israel, but it is anti-Semitic for anyone to scapegoat or punish Europaean Jews for Israeli actions.

Yes, the people of Israel would do well to dump Bibi; but that's no reason for anyone attacking French or other Europaean Jews. (And I have already said that he shouldn't be using Europaean Jews for his own electioneering purposes, either.)

What have French or Danish citizens of the Jewish faith done to Palestinians?

It is tried and true.

You are trying to deflect the real issue. Of course French and Danish citizens have done nothing to Palestinians. Attacks on them are certainly unwarranted.

But Bibi, however, has done everything in his power in defiance of international law to abuse Palestinians.

mistreat Palestinians.

Why should French, British or American Jews be used as scapegoats for another country's behaviour?

I don't remember that during the South African apartheid era, it was generally used as an excuse to attack white people outside of South Africa. Which would also have been unjust.

You fail to recognize that there are many Jews in many countries that support Zionism and the ousting of Palestinians whose families have lived for centuries on lands that people like Bibi claim are theirs and the people who have lived there for centuries should be expatriated.

Why one, in this day and age, would defer to texts written 2000 years ago by people in the iron age who didn't have the slightest clue about things like germs or atoms or that the Earth is NOT the center of the Universe really confounds me.

You would totally make fun of people who might choose to worship the Greek or Roman gods and goddesses. However, you don't see your own farcical idea of believing in mythical beings. It is no different.

but I still don't think that violence and threats are justified against Jews because of whatever Netanyahu might do; or Muslims because of Al Quaeda; or Catholics because of Santorum or the IRA; or Protestants because of Palin or Paisley, etc.

Collective punishment is always a bad thing - whether it is Netanyahu collectively punishing Palestinians, Europaean nutcases collectively punishing Jews, or ISIS collectively punishing Christians.

Last edited Mon Feb 16, 2015, 07:01 AM - Edit history (1)

even if the DU Jury can't or just refuses to, or maybe that particular Jury agrees with you.

Evil.

And before I saw this post I actually thought of responding to you.

I wont make that mistake again.

Because there's a few people wanting you to answer a question you were asked in this thread. Guess you don't do questions either?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1015473

What are they going to do with the Palestinians when all these new Jewish folks arrive in Israel? As it is they have pushed them more and more into a corner, just going to push them into the sea?

but the problems of attacks on Jews in europe are real and they need to do something about it.

in Israel. Do as I say, not as I do?

But Netanyahu's bullshit is trying to make French Jews move because they feel they have to, not because they want to...

Sounds remarkably like our Republican politicians. And I really don't think you believe that Danish (or French or whatever) Jews are going to somehow be persuaded to rush to leave for Israel simply because of something Netanyahu says. I think there is a legitimate point here. Remember that half of France was home to the Vichy collaborationist government during WW II. Many French Jews, as well as many others from surrounding countries took refuge in Vichy France believing that they would be safe. They weren't.

I'd take a guess that many French Jews would think Netanyahu's a total wanker. They're French, and how it comes across from Netanyahu and his ilk is they're trying to strip the French part of people's identities away from them.

As for WWII, there's really no comparison to be made with modern France, imo...

or ability to "strip the French Jews of art of their identities". Most French Jews are probably fairly conflicted about this since France has a long history of antisemitism. Treatment of the French Jews under the Vichy government is only a recent reminder of this.

Regarding 'there's really no comparison" with modern France, that's what people said in 1939. What he IS doing - for whatever reason - is reminding them of the old saying that 'Jews always keep their coats on". It has unfortunately proven to be good advice.

Institutionalised anti-Semitism was happening in Nazi Germany, and laws were being passed there which were stripping German Jews of their rights and stealing their property. That combined with the Nazis powerful military and the invasion of other European countries put a lot of European Jews in areas of their control. There's no government in Europe that's bringing in laws discriminating against Jews and invading other European countries.

I don't think it's acceptable that any citizen of a secular and democratic state feels like they have to keep their coats on. In many cases they were born there and it's the only home they know and no-one should feel like they have to leave because of their religion or ethnicity. I think the answer isn't mass emigration, but that things change so that everyone feels safe in their own country. I don't know how that's to be achieved, but that's what should happen

1. I always find it interesting how some armchair moralists BRAVELY want Jews to stay in in France , Belgium and now Denmark. No matter how many jews are now in the crosshairs. Very brave to allow jews risk their lives.... while the sit in front of their computer. These people are so brave.

2. I also am amazed how some people worldwide can blame the jews in these countries calling it the "problem"...I'm sure these people if pushed could find some ' FINAL solution" to this problem . Blame the victim ....not who has called for the extermination of jews. Guess who.

3. Hollande knew what was happening before Hebdo and only when it went worldwide did he suddenly say some wonderful empty words.

4. I also find it interesting some people want jews to stay in Europe because they would actually have to admit that there is a reason for Israel's existence ... for this EXACT REASON. And gee, they might have to agree with Bibi that Israel is the safest place for jews.

No reason for anyone to respond.

Sorry, but seeing yr refusing to respond to people in this thread who dare to ask you questions and telling people not to respond to you, I'm going to respond. Consider it a teaching moment.

1. You and Netanyahu appear to be some of the few folk who insist that French Jews must leave France. Have you ever considered that French Jews can make up their own minds about where they live and it's really none of yr business? Armchair moralists, my arse...

2. I haven't seen anyone here blame Jews in European countries. I've seen one or two folk try to blame Muslims in general. Refer to the 'guess who' at the end of yr sentence...

3. Uh, the staff at Charlie Hebdo weren't Jewish. Or maybe one was. I have this thing where the murder of anyone is horrific...

4. Israel's suddenly the safest place in the world? You and Bibi need to get together and get yr stories straight!.

all of us Jews are moving to Mars in two years. All of us. We are leaving this world to you and your sanctimonious ilk. Good Luck to you.

Actually we aren't moving, since within a few years you'd be up there telling us that Mars is yours and you want it returned immediately to the rightful owners. So we're staying here...like it or not.

Maybe next time you get the urge to reply to one of my posts you could try addressing what I said?

absolutely certain that no one will pass laws forcing them to leave, or relegating them to second-class (or worst) status or requiring them to give up their religion or otherwise restricting and minimizing them as a class of people is Israel. Period.

I mention them because of familiarity. While I'm pretty sure France would never get to that point, I'm not familiar with it like I am with here. Anyway, when I comes to this corner of the world, there's absolutely no chance that there'd ever be laws passed forcing any citizen of either country to leave because of their religion or ethnicity, or even to give up their religion. While there's bigotry and racism present, it's mainly aimed at other groups (eg immigrants, indigenous Australians, Asians), but even then it's small but very vocal groups of nasties who don't have a place in politics except one or two who manage to get onto the backbenches and are treated as loonies by both major political parties. Pauline Hanson was the one exception and the bigotry of her party was aimed at immigrants, Asians and Muslims, and made for some facepalm moments as some of Australia's major trading partners were going WTF???

I think when it comes to being absolutely certain of something, I'd be more absolutely certain that my govt would never implement laws discriminating against citizens based on religion or ethnicity (and I include the conservatives even though I can't stand them) than I'd be absolutely certain that ISIS would never attack Israel, which is after all pretty much next door to where the whole Let's Build Us A First Century Style Caliphate Complete With Slavery and Beheadings is going down...

countries are littered with the bones of Jews who were also 'absolutely certain' that nothing of the sort could ever happen to them. The whole purpose of having a Jewish state is to ensure that there is one place of refuge that will never close its doors to them. All the rest is just supposition and hope.

before Congress?

I have to bring this up:

In the years leading up to WWII, German (and later European) Jewish immigration was problematic.

In 1935 the Nuremberg Laws were passed essentially making German Jews stateless within their own country. In response, German Jewish immigration began to increase and continued to increase as Germany annexed (or conquered) more other European countries. The Evian Conference was convened in 1938 to address the increasing numbers of Jewish Refugees fleeing Germany and Austria.

Of the 32 countries involved in this conference, only the Dominican Republic agreed to accept any significant number of Jewish refugees (~100,000). To be fair, other countries agreed to accept some Jewish refugees but by 1939 the quota numbers (especially in the USA) were far below the number of applicants. The USA, in 1939, had a quota cap of 27,000 with more than 300,000 applicants.

Had there been a country who was willing to accept as many Jews as wanted to come, the Holocaust might have had far less Jewish casualties. Israel appears to be willing to step up to the plate and offer a bolt hole to all European Jews.

The comments above pointing fingers at Israel and their treatment of Palestinians appear, to me at least, strangely out of place on a progressive board. You have a small group of people being subject to attacks for being who they are. Imagine if "gay" was substituted for "jew". Would the responses be the same? I highly doubt it.

None that I know of.

The world is as complex as progress .

So this influx of more people is supposed to make things better? I wonder if Bibi and his cronies expect to make killing in the housing market with a greater demand caused by an influx of migrants.

The Russians are leaving now. A week or two ago, Ha'aretz had a story about Russian emigres in Israel moving to Nova Scotia.

Last edited Tue Feb 17, 2015, 11:56 AM - Edit history (1)

Jews already know that we have 'right of return' to Israel should we wish - or sadly need! - to take advantage of it. We don't have to be told about it. I fear that this is not so much outreach to Europaean Jews, but posturing to his own electorate ('rally around me against all those external enemies'!) I fear that it could only encourage anti-Semitic attitudes that 'Jews don't really belong in their native countries; why don't they clear off to their own country; etc.' There is no excuse for such attitudes anyway, but it isn't the Israeli PM's role to reinforce them.

The Israeli elections can't come too soon. Hopefully Netanyahu will go down to defeat; and even if he doesn't, he will have less motivation for clumsy meddling in the affairs of countries and groups where he has even less finesse and understanding than he does with the affairs of his own country.

4500 French jews probably said the same thing before they saw the handwriting on the wall last year.


it may be only a matter of time.

and all the European Jews move to Israel. Maybe even the entire worlds population of Jews make the trek.

Does it occur to anyone else that would be a remarkable stupid thing to do?? Amass the entirety of a group in one fairly small locale?? One fairly vulnerable locale? One locale, and its population, that could be wiped out??

Safe?? Shit, sitting ducks, IMO.

Better a population scattered across the globe. Much better odds of long term survival.