They aren't breaking any rules. They are doing EXACTLY what the US and NATO does, and all of a sudden, it's an international incident?

Such hypocrisy!

Sound familiar?

Only the West is allowed to test rival perimeter security..the fact Russia is NOT a military enemy anymore is give NATO a great sad...no enemies, no NATO.

Think they are not a military threat?

Ukraine conflict: UK joins Nato exercise in Poland

21 November 2014 Last updated at 19:22 GMT

UK troops have taken part in the largest British armoured exercise in Europe since 2008.

More than 300 vehicles and 1,350 British troops took part in the bi-lateral training exercise with Poland.

The Nato exercise comes as US Vice-President Joe Biden, visiting Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, warned Russia that it faces further isolation if it continues to violate ceasefires with Ukraine.

Defence correspondent Jonathan Beale reports from northern Poland.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30153224

... who, after all, have escalated the saber rattling?

I think it's legitimate to criticize our own governments, but Putin and his minions are not faultless in the rise in tensions.

The only politician I see around not using fear is Obama.

Glad I could help with your burning curiosity about my opinions.

Russia is the one being provocative.

SAC was turned off in the 90's. 20+ years ago.

They are routine. Satellites have taken over a lot of that work.

I would think they would be showing this all the time that the big bad west was attacking them. More than likely we ar not doing that.

and the Air Force stood down it's SAC in the 90's.
As noted by another poster here, if we were, Russia would be yelling at the top of her lungs about it.

When and where?

SAC stopped doing so in the 90's.

"Sources said the Russian planes were flying without their transponders turned on, making them invisible to civilian aircraft. A number of flights arriving in Britain had to be diverted to avoid potential disaster."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/11378119/UK-summons-Russian-ambassador-after-dangerous-bombers-disrupt-civil-aircraft.html

Any proof / links that "NATO is doing exactly the same thing"?

and things have been a bit more tense than they have in so-called peacetime...

prompting the Government to demand an explanation from the Russian ambassador."

Putin on the prowl..

in Maui is.....strange. And it only seems to be Russia.

anyone else's mind.

How does Russia signing a peace accord, regarding a bordering nation, play into the evil that is Russia...that is the MIC con game, isn't it?

The demonization of personalities is.......Machevellian.

I bet the Ukrainians are sorry they agreed to give up their nukes

another sovereign nation........

He equates a nuclear capable bomber encroaching on Cornwall as an appropriate response to our supposed flights into Russian air space, without even showing we've been doing that lately. I'm sure if Russia caught us or the RAF doing these types of maneuvers, they would be squawking left and right. So where is the proof, Fred?

I wonder how Mr. Sanders would react if someone armed with a bazooka was sneaking around in his back yard. Would he think that was just hunky-dory?

Of course not, unless he is a crazy person.

I'm betting he is other-motivated.

?resize=1000%2C441

Not.

I have friends and family in the Baltics. They are certain that Mama Bear will attack, quite possible with some ridiculous pretext that will be created for their own domestic consumption - much like what we did in Nam. The saber rattling has been all one way, heading west.

I relate actual, factual stuff, and you claim they are being manipulated? Do you know anyone in Riga, Vilnius or Klaipeda? Do you get emails talking about the feeling of impending war coming from both sides? (I am sure you had no clue that Russia owns territory both east AND west of Lithuania. ON the west is a huge military base) Do you see or hear russian jets constantly harassing the Baltic borders?

Forget this shit. Time for ignore.

As if the nonsense he posted somehow supports the previous nonsense he put up earlier.

These other-motivated folks are bewildering.

We could disregard EVERYTHING that dick Inhofe has EVER said about the Ukrainian conflict, and still have mountains of evidence that Russia has been openly attacking a sovereign nation from the start of this conflict.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2015/02/17/europe-and-u-s-finally-declare-that-russian-soldiers-are-fighting-in-ukraine/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2736529/Russia-directly-involved-fighting-Ukraine-sending-latest-air-defence-systems-border-says-US-ambassador.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/17/russia-shelled-ukrainians-from-within-its-own-territory-says-study

How.....interesting.

That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

http://www.cfr.org/nonproliferation-arms-control-and-disarmament/budapest-memorandums-security-assurances-1994/p32484

There is NOTHING in that agreement about providing weapons to the Ukraine or anyone in the Ukraine. Officially Putin has NOT used any Russian Arms against the Ukraine. Putin has says there are NO Russian troops in the Ukraine (And we have to go by his word on this matter UNLESS you can show otherwise, not just say there are troops but show actual troops and given the nature of most armies today, you have a hard time telling one army from another even when they are fighting each other).

As to the Crimea, Putin's position is the Autonomous Republic of the Crimean had the legal authority to leave the Ukraine and Join Russia. Autonomous Republics were invented during the 1920s for those areas within a Soviet Republic that were given more power then a US State but not quite the power of a Republic within the Soviet system. When the Soviet Union dissolved, only one Autonomous Republic existed outside of the Russian Federation, and that was the Crimea. Under the Rule adopted for Kosovo in the 1990s, such a regional government had the right, under international law, to leave one country and become independent or join another country. The Crimea Autonomous Republic decided to leave the Ukraine and Join Russia. The Vote has been attacked, but independent observers believe it reflects the people who live in the Crimea, thus the more recent attack has been the vote was illegal under Ukrainian law i.e since the Ukranian Government did not agree to the vote, it was illegal even through that is what the people of the Crimea want.

Thus, in the case of the Crimea, Russian Weapons use was approved by the local Government, thus how can that violate the Budapest memorandum? As to the Eastern Ukraine, Putin still maintain no Russian Troops are involved. You may disagree with that but to show a violation you need to show actual Russian troops, not just Russian equipment in the Ukraine (and such troops have to be inside the Ukraine enough NOT to be there by accident, the border between the Ukraine and Russia is rights across of the the richest farmland in the world, it is like the US-Canadian Border in the Great Plains, an arbitrary line that people on both side cross constantly. One farm looks like another and there is no variation on either side of the border. Thus crossing of that border is constant and every so often a soldier ends up on the wrong side. Thus we it is DEEP penetration that shows that the Russia forces are inside the Ukraine by intent NOT mistake, No such deep penetration with force has been shown to occur in the Eastern Ukraine.

Giving supplies or having volunteers does NOT violate the Budapest Memorandum. You may NOT like that such acts does not, but reading the actual Memorandum does NOT show such supplies, or volunteers villate that agreement.

Comrade Major Putin violated that provision without a second thought.

PROOF.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2015/02/17/europe-and-u-s-finally-declare-that-russian-soldiers-are-fighting-in-ukraine/

http://www.trust.org/item/20140904114713-ysluw

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/06/elena-racheva_n_5774138.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/19/russia-official-silence-for-families-troops-killed-in-ukraine

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/23df3404-2f87-11e4-a79c-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3SFiLLNI8


First you say Putin hasnt used any Russian arms, then 2 paragraphs later you say Russian weapons ARE in Ukraine. Why try to defend what Putin is and has done?

Yes, Russia was the only county that attacked Georgia then. Russia was also the only country to seize Crimea with its troops in 2014. And the only country to send troops into eastern Ukraine to fight, in 2014.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#1989.E2.80.932008

There was some small scale fighting that was used by Georgia as an excuse to invade South Ossetia. The problem was Russia then counterattacked to drive the Georgian Forces out the positions they had taken in South Ossetia. Georgia makes a big deal of the small scale fighting BEFORE they invaded to say they were restoring order, but Russia and South Ossetia maintain it was just an excuse to invade South Ossetia.

My point is it was GEORGIAN Forces that invaded first, Russia counterattacked and all Russia achieved was a return to the situation on ground prior to the Georgian invasion.

This is like saying since Vancouver Island is below the 49th Parallel, it is part of the US and Canada is illegally occupying it, given that the 49th Parallel is the agreed upon Border between Canada and the US since 1819. That the US accepted British Control over that island in the 1850s means nothing.

South Ossetia has been for all practical purposes an independent country since 1992, Georgia does NOT want to recognize that fact and has threaten to invade again to assert its Sovereignty but Russia forces prevents Georgia from doing so. Thus after 20 years of self rule, you want to return those people to a rule of a country that in the past has threatened to kick out all of the current residents? Georgia has to accept that South Ossetia is now independent of Georgia, Georgia may not like that fact, but it is the fact on the ground and has been since Georgia become itself independent of the Soviet Union, The people of South Ossetia were willing to be in Georgia as long as Georgia was in the Soviet Union. They were NOT willing to be in an Independent Georgia. Georgia wanted independence and one of the price it had to pay was the lost of South Ossetia.

Thus South Ossetia has NEVER in fact (in law but NOT in reality) been part of an INDEPENDENT Georgia and it seems it never will be.

is that it's part of Georgia.

It might be the simplest thing for Georgia to say "OK, Russia successfully invaded South Ossetia, the people that are left would be happier in Russia, Putin can have it", but that doesn't mean that when Russia sent its troops into South Ossetia and attacked Georgian troops, it was OK. This sub-thread was about when western suspicions of Russia resurfaced, and a major answer to that is "when it attacked the sovereign territory of another country".

they might not see Russia, but they certainly see this....



If Putin sends a couple of bombers to drop bombs on the UK or The USA, he knows that in a few hours Russia would be a radioactive wasteland. Bad for kleptocracy. It would be More humiliating to Putin for the US and UK to show that they don't care about this cold war crap.

But that is the reason why we scramble fighters to 'escort' bombers while out in international skies. Old, cold war mentality. Putin is trying to show how he still has 'power'. We should ignore him.

Whenever the government wants to put a scare into folks it does a news release.

I guess it doesn't matter to most when we do it because we are just testing their security. But they are threatening us when they do it.

But why waste the fuel, why not just radio the bombers with their positions to let them know we see them. Using them as excuses for training missions I guess.

Which creates problems with civilian air traffic.

We aren't worried about the bombers nuking the UK.

Game Over !!!

Besides, that's certainly NOT what the Brits are concerned about. Electronic eavesdropping is the name of the game.

And, the USA restarted the Cold War Crap.

"And, the USA restarted the Cold War Crap. "
Thank you for your information and response.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026242398

Whenever I see a request like this I always have to wonder if you're serious or if you're just trying to waste my time. But I'll go ahead and be charitable and assume that this is a serious question.

I really have to wonder what you're looking for. If you're looking for some kind of signed document from the President stating yes, we started a new Cold War, well the White House doesn't work that way. Nor are you going to see any type of official document from DoD, DoS, or the CIA, because they don't work that way either.

Or maybe you're looking for some investigative report from a well-established media outlet stating they did an investigation and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that yes, the USA started a new Cold War. Well, I'm sad to inform you that the mainstream media does not work that way anymore. Seeing what has occurred over the last year in Ukraine, it's very clear that the US media is under orders not to cover certain types of stories. Sad, but true.

Outside the bubble of the US media blackout, via foreign media, I've seen hundreds of dead, I've seen war crimes galore, and wanton destruction that rivals Syria and Libya and Gaza. All here in Ukraine. My wife and I have personally met a number of refugees from the war zone. Indeed, there are two refugees in my son's class at his school here in Kiev.

Now I'm not going to suggest that you should do like I did and read in whole or in part 5000 articles over the course of a year alone regarding the Russia Ukraine crisis. And I'm not going to suggest that you need to live in Ukraine for nine years like I have to gain the necessary understanding. Just look around DU. There are a lot of people here on this site who do understand what's going on and I think it's safe to say not a single one of them have read 5000 articles on this crisis and lived in Ukraine for over nine years like I have.

But these fellow DUers obviously have a couple of things that you do not have. They have a healthy sense of skepticism and don't automatically believe everything that they are told. And their memories are long enough to remember the lies that got the USA into the Iraq war. They might even remember the lies that got us in the first Iraq war and the lies that got us into Vietnam. Now if you're not that old, there is nothing you can do about that. But if you automatically believe everything that comes out of the White House, out of the Department of State, out of the Department of Defense, or out of the mainstream media, there is absolutely no proof that I can give you that can prove that the USA started a new Cold War. And I'm not going to try either.

But the process is sort of like getting a PhD. This process cannot be summarized in a two-page paper or in a 10 minute video. You need to dedicate a good amount of time and money to achieve it. Likewise to understand how the world really works, you have to dedicate at least a good amount of time and go forward under the mantra of question everything. I can't supply you a shortcut.

Or that Russia is supplying most of the weapons being used?

The world is far more concerned about America's 10 fold military advantage over Russia. Who should be more frightened?

The world is actually a lot bigger than America, some places even have different opinions about America than Americans do.....shocking, but true.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/02/18/europes-far-right-still-loves-putin/

As long as Putin is rearing his head, paint it up like a clown's face.

regardless of who is doing what. I think this testing of credible enemies air and sea defense is increasing from nearly nonexistent to a worrisome level. I would think that we must be at DEFCON 3.5 up from 4 or 5. Why is the doomsday clock at 3 minutes to midnight?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/23/us/feat-doomsday-clock-three-minutes-midnight/index.html
Doomsday Clock moved two minutes closer to midnight
(CNN)The world is closer to doomsday.

That's the message from the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, which moved its iconic Doomsday Clock up two minutes on Thursday. The clock now stands at three minutes to midnight, the "latest" it's been since 1984, when the Cold War between the U.S. and Soviet Union was a major issue.

We've seen this behavior before, and it does not bode well. why are you such a loyal Putin apologist?

is telling the gospel truth? Everything else they lie about?

"The scary Russians, the scary ISIS, the scary Iran...etc. etc." Same con game, same exploitation of the reptilian brain.

That is called "tunnel vision".

I am consistent in questioning the media information, across the board, across all the issues, some are not.

Calling a denunciation of bellicose behavior "propaganda" is the worst kind of sophistry. Fred, the only consistency I see in your posts is blaming the media for reporting events that actually happened. I suppose you think Russia has a free press?

You've just proven my point.

nt

who's provoking who or why. It's about miscalculation. It's about the hotshot pilot who misinterprets a command or decides not to play by the rules. That's what life was like for 50 years, and I do not relish seeing it repeated.

What if one of their bombers strays into someones airspace? What if one has a mechanical failure and crashes. Lots of things can go wrong with very bad unintended consequences.

America has 6000 nuclear weapons, thousands surrounding Russia..maybe this routine incident should spark a conversation on another issue?

France and UK hundreds more....Israel, hundreds more....

I don't believe I did. However, if you cannot see that what Russia is doing could have a bad ending, then you are blind or a fool.

Where is my blankee?

I imagine many half-wits, lacking a substantive and objective premise, often fall back on conflating concern and fear, and pretend to have absolute knowledge of the specific agendas of two nations; and pretend that any contention with their unsourced and biased conclusions are simply people falling for "propaganda."

I certainly realize the convenience that brings-- one may simply make things up, and when called on that fiction, simply resort to the allegation of "you're afraid! the governments have done their jobs! If you disagree with me, you've fallen for it."

No need for objective evidence or sources when we can simply pretend that the concern of others is simply fear... though it may advertise us as a buffoon, we don't care. Self-validation requires no rational thought-- simply a bumper-sticker to throw at people who may disagree with us.




No doubt, yours is most righteous though.

They can't wait to BUK down another big fish and rain bodies from the skies.

Ukraine crisis: Poland asks Nato to station 10,000 troops on its territory
Nato is divided over demands from Poland and the Baltic states for a permanent deployment of the Alliance's troops to defend them from Russia

By Bruno Waterfield, Brussels and Tony Paterson in Berlin

7:03PM BST 01 Apr 2014
Britain has offered to send RAF Typhoon fighters to join Nato exercises over Poland and air defence patrols above the Baltic states. But Poland wants Nato forces to be permanently stationed on its territory. Mr Hague gave a cautious response, saying: "We certainly need to give additional reassurance and confidence to our Eastern allies. The UK has said we will contribute aircraft to Baltic air policing and there may be other measures we decide upon."

Nato is expected to make further announcements on the deployment of military "assets" in the coming weeks. This might include sending troops and warships to Eastern Europe and the Baltic.

America is expected to send another 600 personnel to Mihail Kogalniceanu airbase on the Black Sea coast of Romania and said it was also likely to send a warship to the Black Sea. However, Germany and other Nato members are wary of causing still more tension with Russia by sending forces to its frontiers.

"No, we don't need any Nato troops on the border with Russia," said Frans Timmermans, the Dutch foreign minister in response to the Polish proposal.

A Nato "restricted" document, seen by Germany's Der Spiegel, singles out Armenia, Azerbaijan and Moldova as three countries – all former Soviet republics – that might benefit from increased Western military support.

The seven-page document said they would be encouraged to participate in Nato's "Smart Defence" programme, which involves buying specific weapons and taking part in joint exercises. The document held out the long term prospect of eventual Nato membership for the three countries, but noted that opinions differed widely on this question.

Diplomats are concerned that a permanent Nato military presence in member states bordering Russia could lead President Vladimir Putin to counter by bolstering his own forces near sensitive frontiers.

They are particularly reluctant to place any Nato troops in Ukraine itself. "It's not the most opportune moment to have a visible Nato presence in Ukraine. It would be a golden pretext for the Russians to reinforce their presence," said a diplomat.

w.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10737838/Ukraine-crisis-Poland-asks-Nato-to-station-10000-troops-on-its-territory.html

The Russian Bears are ancient propeller-drive planes. I'm amazed they are still able to fly to the UK.

That Russian Bear can fly 9000 miles on a full tank; it's able to fly the long sneaky route the UK and back.

We rely on midair refueling to add range to our bombers. The Russians wanted planes that did not require midair refueling.

Thanks for sharing.

Hat tip: someone at a scanning list who wasn't inclined to leave a name.

planesandstuff: Bear Hunting

Posted on January 31, 2015

After this weeks flight of two Tu-95MSM “Bears” off the South West coast of the UK, I thought it would be a good time to release the article I produced for The Spectrum Monitor in October 2014. The article covers not only information on the Tu-95 and Tu-160 “Blackjack” but also on how to monitor these flights. There’s also some additional information that I’ve discovered I’d left out of the article plus some recordings from this weeks mission.



An underside view of 23 black whilst it performed a flypast. The Kutnetsov NK-12MP turboprops with the eight-blade contra-rotating propellers are clearly discernible here. The airframes themselves have hardly changed since this was taken in 1994. © Tony Roper



Two approximate routes routinely taken by “Bear” flights towards the UK. The route to the west of the country causes no end of trouble as the route cuts south, and then north again, straight through the Atlantic Oceanic tracks which is a non-radar environment. They also cut south between the UK and Norway, down towards Dutch airspace
Map features courtesy of SkyVector.com