as an adolescent. They're also hard as little rocks, and some bleaching took care of the markings.

I'm told my bones are probably equally splotchy, but have never seen them. If they're also similarly rock-hard, I can't say I mind.

Here in the country, we are on a well, so no fluoride. My kids take fluoride tablets instead, per their dentist.

I'm tired of being forced to be sexually attracted to hamsters.

That is everybody, right?

And yes, I have all of my teeth and not a cavity in years.

I don't care to dump this neurotoxin into my body no thanks.

and it is not in San Francisco's water supply either (lived there for abt. 20 years).

Then I lived in a place that was on a well for 10 years and where I live now it is not in the water supply either. They've considered adding it to the water supply where I now live but have decided it is not cost effective for this small town that I now live in.

So, I've avoided by sheer luck and if a dentist tries to put it on my teeth I tell them no, I do not want this stuff put on them so please don't and I do not use toothpaste that has fluoride in it, I use a tooth powder than does a fine job. My fluoride pushing dentist admitted that he is impressed with the results I get from this tooth powder I've been using for a few years now. Shocked he is I tell you, shocked!

According to the SF Water Power & Sewer...

There are lead pipes in a lot of those old buildings in S.F., including the ones I lived in. The last place I lived was so bad that the person living upstairs from me developed lead poisoning from the lead in the water. Of course the tight wad landlords weren't about to fix this problem, hence the reason I avoided the fluoride while living in San Francisco.

It was expensive as hell but what pray tell can one do about such a condition other than move? Having drinking/cooking water delivered every week was a far cheaper/healthier option rather than drinking the poisonous water coming out of the faucet.

... and ironically, that's where it was first discovered to strengthen enamel. (It's also where the spotting was first noticed, and that's what actually led to investigating why those people had fewer cavities.) Some of the city's water supplies have a lot, naturally, and some have none. My neighborhood has none, so I use a fluoride toothpaste and mouthwash (which tastes horrible).

What you really have to watch out for is hydronium hydroxide. Odorless, colorless, killed Andy Warhol, and it's IN OUR DRINKING SUPPLY!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy#Communist_conspiracy_theory_.281940s-1960s.29

This is old news really, the OP proves they are moving away from forcing fluoride and are now forcing hydronium hydroxide.
It's a colorless and odorless chemical compound, and is a constituent of many highly toxic compounds. It's commonly used as an industrial solvent. This stuff is in all sorts of processed foods, most of which don't require the labeling of it. Andy Warhol died of hydronium hydroxide intoxication as do many people each year.

You could ditch the aluminum foil, and pick up a science book. Organic chemistry might be a good start. Maybe follow up with some molecular biology and maybe even basic human anatomy.

You do realize that flouride occurs NATURALLY in water. However, 70 years ago we discovered that hey, it helps to protect teeth at an optimal ppm.

Or, you can continue to drive the woomobile.

Big Pharma pushes it on old people to prevent strokes.

Forget fluoride, the taste alone is enough to put u off. Oh well, good move and keep tinkering with the dose until a more perfect number is reached.

No tap water for me until they make tap water to start tasting like bottled water i.e. tasteless.

per say. I have 1 gal water bottle that I take to the grocery store for a refill. But the point is that I don't drink it.

I recommend a generic under the sink 10" water filter holder, with a 10 micron carbon filter. Proprietary water filter holders require proprietary filters and generally cost more for no higher benefit. This will correct the vast majority of taste issues that most people experience with tap water.

However, a basic carbon filter will not correct all taste issues. Bottled water quality is hard to reproduce at home. I explain the process in post#25. Certainly you can remove hardness via ion exchange, RO, and filter your water at home, then reintroduce minerals. I know people who do it. However, most people would not want to go to that much trouble.

Most bottled water is made by using a municipal water supply. They remove hardness via ion exchange, filter it via reverse osmosis(RO), and then reintroduce some of the same minerals they previously removed like calcium and magnesium. The reason they reintroduce those minerals is purely for taste. Spring water also has the same minerals. Bottled water manufacturers could easily produce "tasteless" water by simply selling you the RO water that's been PH balanced, but nobody would buy it for drinking.

My local tap water tastes great. It comes from a reservoir, has pretty much the exact mineral content as bottled water, and has few, if any of the things that produce off tastes like sulfur. Even if your tap water has off tastes, in most cases it can be corrected by a simple 5-10 micron carbon 10" filter costing about $25 for the filter and holder and mounted under your sink. The filter will last for months and replacements typically cost less than $10.

The typical water softener is a home exchanges Calcium and Magnesium ions for Sodium (and a little Potassium) all of which are positive ions. A full deionizing system is a two step process that works at removing all ions (getting rid of the Chloride and other negative ions as well). Fully deionized water is relatively expensive and is used mostly for lab work and some fussy manufacturing processes.

RO works by forcing water under pressure through a permeable membrane that lets water molecules through but holds back ions. RO water is not as free of ions as deionized water, but is cheaper to produce. The company I used to work for had a huge RO system that provided most of the water and feed the deionizing system that provided the water for the lab and a manufacturing process.

I can't say for certain as I have no personal knowledge, but it would be doubtful that a company would use an ion exchange system ahead of an RO system. The typical approach would be filtration to remove undissolved solids, carbon filter to remove organics, RO to reduce the amount of ions (drinking water would be split out here) and then ion exchange, if they needed really pure water.

Calcium and Magnesium are added back into drinking water for taste as you said.

But "forcing water under pressure through a permeable membrane that lets water molecules through but holds back ions" sounds a lot like filtering and such permeable membranes are generally described as filters even though the process is different.

From what I know of commercial water bottling operations they do ion exchange before RO. I do not know why.

http://www.endlesswaters.com/technology

Filters remove hunks of crud. RO removes ions. Sounds similar, but to beat out an "RO" bunt single in a "filtering" ball park, get ready to run 850-1704 miles. One could go from home plate in Camden Yards in Baltimore to first base at Target Field in Minneapolis and be comfortably on the low side of that difference. If you think that is comparable, well...

I would say that the source of water has implications of how the plant is set up.

Your link's plant uses the same type of water softening that the vast majority of home systems use, exchanging Sodium and Potassium for Calcium, Magnesium and metals. They probably have a significant enough amount of dissolved metals warrant using a water softener.

The 5-10 micron carbon filter is what I recommend for most home users who want water filtration. I wouldn't recommend home RO unless someone had a specific need for it, and most people don't.

The diagram you produced seems to be for laboratory grade purified water. I'm not sure how well that translates to consumer grade drinking water, but I do agree that the supply is going to determine what steps are needed to produce the desired result.

"But "forcing water under pressure through a permeable membrane that lets water molecules through but holds back ions" sounds a lot like filtering and such permeable membranes are generally described as filters even though the process is different."

Well, OK, if you say you aren't comparing... We'll just let that one slide.

Read the big bold lettering on the diagram... I Googled "bottled water process" and grabbed the first image that had an RO system.

Not even knowing what the plant is, I guarantee it is not for a lab, as there is no full deionization done. It is for, as you put it, consumer grade drinking water, not nearly clean enough for lab work.

You are either deliberately or unintentionally misrepresenting what I wrote.

This is what you wrote:

Nowhere did I compare a 5-10 micron filter with RO in terms of particle size. That would be fucking stupid. At 5-10 microns you aren't even filtering the vast majority of dissolved mineral solids. So if you really think that's what I meant, then go ahead and run with it, but you certainly didn't quote anything which suggests as much.



Who cares really? I gave you a link (that you ignored) that shows an operation exactly as I described it. You should have let it go at that point and curiously didn't. The description I provided was never intended to be anything other than in layman's terms to begin with. You appear to be argumentative for no other reason than to impress yourself with some sort of knowledge you think you posses that I don't. I'm just not interested in that game really, but don't misrepresent what I wrote and then agree for me that I should let it slide.

I did not ignore your link, I pointed out that they were concerned about metals. Did you maybe not read your own link?

I pointed out that RO is not "filtration" and you appear to be highly offended that I clarified, at best, an over-generalization, at worst, an error in your post.

Just to be clear, in that diagram that you missed reading the large print? The small print are tests, all of which I have performed professionally.

I'm not interested in arguing with you, yet you seem to find offense that someone dare to post further information, where you wanted to claim expertise.

Amazing how you had to put words in my mouth in order to claim you schooled me on the subject. I find that kinda arrogant. Damn arrogant even. Are you really going to keep holding on to your strawman gibberish that you can't even begin to support? Show me where I "compared" a 5-10 micron filter to RO. I triple dog dare you to paste the text, then we'll have something to discuss. Otherwise I'll just assume you have such a desperate need to inflate your own ego you have to make it up as you go.

Actually I agreed with you that it was a generalization from the very beginning and was intended to be so. Why you keep harping on this pointless exercise is anyone's guess, but here we are. Here's a company that sells RO systems and describes them in the exact same way. Perhaps you should call them up and set them straight. I'm sure they would be very impressed with your self-described expertise:
http://espwaterproducts.com/about-reverse-osmosis.htm



Question: Who gives a fuck? Well I guess you do, but who else? Who cares what they are concerned about? They do it exactly as I described. Pointing out that someone else does it a different way doesn't negate what I wrote. Do I need to draw you a picture? OK, here's one. Wonder what you're gonna claim now that doesn't amount to a hill of beans?




I have a red phone to the almighty and He says you are full of it. Equally as verifiable as your claimed experience which I could really care less about, yet you seem to think is important to mention while simultaneously saying I'm the one claiming expertise.




Obviously you have been since your very first reply to me because all you've been is argumentative, and the only point for it seems to be to flaunt your supposedly superior knowledge that frankly I find quite lacking regardless of whatever completely unverifiable claims you care to make.

You know, there are many decaffeinated brands on the market that taste just like the real thing.

Have a nice evening.

You must still be under the illusion that you actually told me something I didn't already know.

It is good to see you leave once you were asked to put up. Nice timing.

I'm deciding not to bother as I don't play T-ball.

Try not to be so sensitive when someone adds to something you post. You said you went for a generalized version and then threw a fit when I added detail. I don't really care as to why you have so much of an issue with that.

I'll let let you have the last post to assuage your feelings.

Your big train wreck started with post #39. Since you seemed to have forgotten, this is the nonsense you authored:

I dared you to post proof of where I even remotely compared any such thing no less than three times and you simply came back with mumblings about your anonymously claimed expertise. So now you're leaving without doing so (perhaps this time for real?). I can't say I'm surprised, but I wish you had just said you weren't going to do it from the beginning. Would have saved both our time.

Cheers!

They cost about $400.00 for one that goes under the sink; about $250.00 for a counter-top one. Fortunately, one needs to only change the filter about once a year if on decent municipal water.

When I was living in the place that had that funky old well, it was every three months. You should have seen some of the filters that came out of said well. One time it was green! Green with mold I believe it was. Since living at that place that had the well (north of where I now live) I've continued to filter my water regardless of whether there is fluoride in it or not! Yikes is all I can say re: the safety of well water!!!

Let it sit for a couple hours in the fridge -- tastes fine after that.

Bottled water is ridiculously awful from an environmental and economic perspective.

However, when traveling I've experienced some really nasty tasting tap water.

When we moved my daughters pediatrician wanted my kids to take tabs. Said no. Were my my teeth growing up better than their's? Definitely not.

We lived on LI for over 25 years. Husband and I moved to Florida. I get hives and doctors have called that contact dermatitis, which I only had on LI in the Summers (pools). In Florida it was year round (don't have a pool). When I went back to LI, my hives cleared up.

Connection? They fluorinate and chlorinate the water in Florida and don't on LI. I buy bottled water and put a special filter on my shower in Florida. No more hives. I was given everything from steroids to cortisone. Solved nothing, until I changed my WATER.

Not a chemist but there must be a connection between the two.

The EPA requires a certain level of chlorine residuals in municipal water supplies.

(was it proper to add something to the water to prevent future chronic disease?) got tangled with the science (was there an optimum amount of flouride in drinking was that prevents cavities?) cavities can cause a lot of problems - ask those of us who have had to replace old fillings with crowns or who have lost teeth over this. What is hilarious is watching self proclaimed scientific thinkers getting overly suspicious of new findings suggesting that we back off a bit on the flouride.

This is an instance of science working correctly and modifying the process. People now have access to fluoridated toothpaste and mouthwash. That was not always the case. Science has now noted that some people are getting a bit too much fluoride, leading to a cosmetic condition called fluorosis. It is not a disease, and all of the woo against fluoridated water remains woo.

http://www.webmd.com/children/fluorosis-symptoms-causes-treatments

from people convinced that the new lower standard is a reponse to political pressure from the Right, not actual scientific observation.

Extremes on opposite ends.

There are no definitive studies that prove that fluoridated water reduces cavities. I can understand applying sodium fluoride directly to one's teeth, but someone explain to me how pouring fluoridated water down one's throat prevents cavities.
The standard used to be 0.4 I believe until St. Ronnie doubled it.
Let's also cut to the chase about fluoride occurring naturally in water, maybe so, but what is being put into our drinking water is sodium fluoride, a compound used in many rat poisons. Sodium fluoride is a byproduct of the aluminum industry, if it were not sold to municipal water suppliers it would cost the industry big bucks to dispose of it because it is so toxic.
Good luck in trying not to drink fluoridated water, it is in soda, beer, any liquid that is supplied by a fluoridated water supplier.

Let's go into the Bircher conspiracy about fluoridated water. Hitler used it in his concentration camps to pacify the prisoners, Prozac is 97% fluoride, enjoy, I try to avoid it.

Total of three fluorine atoms 56.994
Total of Prozac molecule 293.12746

Gives 19.44% Fluorine by weight. A little different than the 97% you claim. Hell, Hydrofluoric acid, HF is only 95% Fluorine.

Your sources leave something to be desired.

in your diatribe. But points for blaming the Nazis.

http://www.quackwatch.com/03HealthPromotion/fluoride.html

Portland, Oregon is one of the few major cities that does not put fluoride in their water and they also have the best tap water I have ever drank. I know they say fluoride has no flavor, but when I drink water from the tap here in Minnesota I definitely notice a chemical taste while the water in Portland tastes much more pure.

I don't believe that fluoride is harmful like some people do, but I do suspect based on my own experiences that it does have a negative impact on the taste of the water.

of the annual summer algae bloom on Lake Erie. Take a shower in water so loaded with chlorine it smelled like you'd just been swimming!

You wouldn't notice any offsetting taste at 1.4ppm (the old standard). But the chlorine, on the other hand...

(the temporary kind) caused by the mouth being open and air sort of "drying out" the teeth? If I get a cold and sleep with my mouth open, I sometimes have whites plotches on the front two teeth that go away within a day.