Israel's New Deputy Foreign Minister: 'This Land Is Ours. All Of It Is Ours'
Source: Guardian UK
Israels new deputy foreign minister on Thursday delivered a defiant message to the international community, saying that Israel owes no apologies for its policies in the Holy Land and citing religious texts to back her belief that it belongs to the Jewish people.
The speech by Tzipi Hotovely illustrated the influence of hardliners in Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahus new government, and the challenges he will face as he tries to persuade the world that he is serious about pursuing peace with the Palestinians.
Hotovely, 36, is among a generation of young hardliners in Netanyahus Likud party who support West Bank settlement construction and oppose ceding captured land to the Palestinians. Since Netanyahu has a slim one-seat majority in parliament, these lawmakers could complicate any attempt to revive peace talks.
With Netanyahu also serving as the acting foreign minister, Hotovely is currently the countrys top full-time diplomat.
Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/22/israels-new-deputy-foreign-minister-this-land-is-ours-all-of-it-is-ours
bl968
(360 posts)vimeo.com/50531435
Enough said...
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)StandingInLeftField
(972 posts)...the human condition.
Andy Williams had a little trouble hitting that high note in "until I die-e-e-e-e-e."
Journeyman
(15,038 posts)ForgoTheConsequence
(4,869 posts)Israel is a liberal, secular, social democracy, the paid Israeli internet brigade keeps saying so.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)President George Bush has claimed he was told by God to invade Iraq and attack Osama bin Laden's stronghold of Afghanistan as part of a divine mission to bring peace to the Middle East, security for Israel, and a state for the Palestinians.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html
Is the US a secular, social democracy?
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)Israel= GWB
Couldn't have said it better myself.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Current RW Israeli government = Most Recent RW US government
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)The drafters of Plan D say hello.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I was just pointing out that you can't compare Israel to George Bush. You can either compare Israel to the US or compare Netanyahu to Bush. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)I just pointed out that Israel's belief in acquiring all of Palestine is not just a RW phenomenon. It goes back at least to Plan D. Thus, the comparison to Bush is invalid.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Based on the Israeli definition of the West Bank, Barak offered to form a Palestinian state initially on 73% of the West Bank (that is, 27% less than the Green Line borders) and 100% of the Gaza Strip. In 1025 years, the Palestinian state would expand to a maximum of 92% of the West Bank (91 percent of the West Bank and 1 percent from a land swap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
That was in 2000.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)because of those damn settlements.
Nablus/Jenin would be cut off from Ramallah, and Ramallah itself would be cut off from Bethlehem and Hebron.
Would Israel be willing to live with Tel Aviv being completely isolated and cut off from Jerusalem, surrounded by Palestinian villages with armed Palestinians patrolling its borders?
And of course Israel would get to keep control of the water resources in the WB. How very, very, very generous.
And, of course, even that low-ball offer was enough to get Barak voted out of office by the Israeli voting public.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If that was indeed the goal, then no such offer would have made.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Barak wasn't willing to give either up, but he still went way too far in the eyes of the Israeli public.
The Israeli public's support for a two-state solution is largely built on a myth, a self-deception.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The Israeli public definitely supports a two-state solution (minus the religious extremists) and would be more than happy to not have this situation plague them for all eternity.
I bring up Barak because his offer makes clear the differences between various PM's of Israel, just like there are differences between Obama and Bush (though both do share a few commonalities).
Please note the comment that I was responding to in the first place.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)an actual Palestinian state. They lie to themselves about what they want.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601996
...
In the question that presented possible long-term solutions, partition of the country was the most popular, preferred by 28 percent of those polled. At the same time, two other possibilities were not far behind: Continuation of the present situation is favored by 25 percent; and an apartheid state model one state, in which the Palestinians will have limited rights, as the question phrased it is preferred by 23 percent of Israelis. Only 10 percent said they would opt for a state in which all citizens will have equal rights.
...
The question of what would be preferable a peace agreement that would require the evacuation of settlements, or continuation of the settlements without an agreement drew almost identical responses: 45 percent are in favor of an agreement and settlement evacuation; 43 percent are in favor of the current status quo with the settlements.
So, apartheid (status quo + formal annexation) outpolls two-state solution, barely a third support a two-state solution when informed of basic details of any deal, and there is not majority support of a peace agreement that would mean settlement evacuation.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/20/israeli-jews-oppose-palestinian-state-poll-shows
Israel is not a liberal place, full of liberal people. It is one of the most racist societies on the planet.
A third of the Jewish public wants a law barring Israeli Arabs from voting for the Knesset and a large majority of 69 percent objects to giving 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote if Israel annexes the West Bank.
A sweeping 74 percent majority is in favor of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank. A quarter - 24 percent - believe separate roads are "a good situation" and 50 percent believe they are "a necessary situation."
Almost half - 47 percent - want part of Israel's Arab population to be transferred to the Palestinian Authority and 36 percent support transferring some of the Arab towns from Israel to the PA, in exchange for keeping some of the West Bank settlements.
Although the territories have not been annexed, most of the Jewish public (58 percent ) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs. Only 31 percent think such a system is not in force here. Over a third (38 percent ) of the Jewish public wants Israel to annex the territories with settlements on them, while 48 percent object.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/survey-most-israeli-jews-wouldn-t-give-palestinians-vote-if-west-bank-was-annexed.premium-1.471644
People can bleat about Netanyahu and the need to replace him. The reality is that he is the most representative of Israel--he is the PM Israel deserves.
Israel cannot be reasoned with.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)First question, have you been to Israel?
Tel Aviv is easily one of the most liberal cities in the world, and Israel is certainly the most liberal country in the region by a wide margin.
The country is rooted in Socialism. There is universal health care, equal rights for women, significant levels of LGBT rights, affirmative actions programs geared towards minorities, publicly subsidized education, legalized abortion. Literally on every social issue you can name Israel falls on the liberal side.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Economically, Israel is one of the more rightwing countries in the developed world.
http://www.haaretz.com/business/.premium-1.656378
http://money.cnn.com/2015/05/21/news/economy/worst-inequality-countries-oecd/
The OECD found that the gap between rich and poor is at record levels in most of its 34 member countries. But the U.S. and Israel stood out from the pack
...
Both the U.S. and Israel have seen inequality grow faster in part because of comparatively low spending on social programs and benefits, said Mark Pearson, the author of the 330-page report. Other countries, such as France, are better at redistributing wealth using taxes and benefits, he said.
...
Israel also has problems with encouraging women to enter the workforce, which can prevent poor families from getting ahead, said Pearson.
"There's a [long] way to go in Israel to get the female employment rates higher," he said, noting that religious and cultural factors have kept many women at home.
That, and the whole rampant, unapologetic racism thing.
Martin Eden
(12,875 posts)There can be no viable Palestinian state that is sliced & diced by Israeli settlements and the roads connecting them. One of the following 2 things would have to take place:
1) Israelis abandon their WB settlements, except perhaps a few that are close to and contiguous with the official border of Israel.
2) Israelis in the WB agree to be residents of a Palestinian state, subject to Palestinian laws & authority.
Under what circumstances will either of those things happen? It is one thing for liberal Israelis to express support for the idea of a "Two State Solution" in an opinion poll, but it is something else entirely for the Israeli government to forcibly expell tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Israeli citizens from settlements that have been their homes (in some areas) for generations.
Ain't. Gonna. Happen.
Not while Israel is a powerful military force funded by US taxpayers.
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)First, this is not true. Ask Robert Malley, among others, who was in the room when Barak made this "offer." You can find one reply to Barak in his June 13, 2002 NYROB article.
Second, this has nothing to do with Plan D.
Third, it does not address the right of return - more than 5 million Palestinians in the diaspora. This was a key stumbling block at Camp David.
Fourth, the Green Line is the armistice line, beyond what Israel should be entitled to.
I could go on and on but all of this has been detailed hundreds of times . . . . do a little reading so you may one day know what YOU are talking.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Your claim was that all Israeli leaders have tried to take as much Palestinian land as possible.
I countered that claim by showing you a recent Israeli leader who made a proposal that contradicts your thesis.
The article by Robert Malley actually confirms that Barak did make such an offer:
Excerpt:
If there is one issue that Israelis agree on, it is that Barak broke every conceivable taboo and went as far as any Israeli prime minister had gone or could go. Coming into office on a pledge to retain Jerusalem as Israels eternal and undivided capital, he ended up appearing to agree to Palestinian sovereigntyfirst over some, then over all, of the Arab sectors of East Jerusalem. Originally adamant in rejecting the argument that Israel should swap some of the occupied West Bank territory for land within its 1967 borders, he finally came around to that view. After initially speaking of a Palestinian state covering roughly 80 percent of the West Bank, he gradually moved up to the low 90s before acquiescing to the mid-90s range.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2001/aug/09/camp-david-the-tragedy-of-errors/
All the other stuff you mention here would constitute an actual deflection.
You made a claim. I proved it to be false. Now you are throwing around other issues that were not part of the initial claim (which was, in your words: "Israel's belief in acquiring all of Palestine is not just a RW phenomenon". You wrote that - and the evidence disproves it.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)because he tried to make a lasting peace with the Palestinians rather than the preferred method of walls, checkposts, barbed wire, and the iron fist of the IDF.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)This is my point, and I actually think we may agree.
My point is that the current Israeli right-wing government is like the previous right-wing US government.
I don't agree with the other poster who claimed that all Israeli governments are like the previous right-wing US government.
I think both countries (Israel and the US) have had their swings to the right and to the left.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)It has slight wobbles between center-right (Kadima) and extreme right (Likud).
Depaysement
(1,835 posts)That's really your distinction?
If that deal had gone through Israel still would have had 80% of Mandatory Palestine. Israel had 78% of Palestine when it declared independence.
And then, from the article, there is this:
"The final and largely unnoticed consequence of Baraks approach is that, strictly speaking, there never was an Israeli offer. Determined to preserve Israels position in the event of failure, and resolved not to let the Palestinians take advantage of one-sided compromises, the Israelis always stopped one, if not several, steps short of a proposal. "
And this, again from the article, which is right after the paragraph you quote:
"Even so, it is hard to state with confidence how far Barak was actually prepared to go."
So basically it was all bullshit and it has remained all bullshit ever since, no matter which Israeli Government was in power..
okaawhatever
(9,462 posts)"challenges he (Netanyahu) will face as he tries to persuade the world that he is serious about pursuing peace". I don't think there is anyone left in the world who believes he is serious about pursuing peace.
And this won't be a problem either:
"these lawmakers could complicate any attempt to revive peace talks"
See above.
Martin Eden
(12,875 posts)... on HIS terms. Ultimately that means a Greater Israel encompassing all the land, in which Palestinians have either been expelled or stripped of rights in an apartheid state.
The problem with those terms is that neither the Palestinians nor the Arab world will accept that kind of peace.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Right?
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Genocide means bad press.
It is far better to make the lives of the undesired people so horrible that they move away. Crushing villages, burning plantations, denying building permits, blocking access to rivers, poisoning wells, stealing land... But ISRAEL is the victim here.
msongs
(67,441 posts)afterwards.
You think this is something unique to 'Israelites'?
olegramps
(8,200 posts)How brutal was their take over during the conquering of Palestine? Read Numbers Chapter 31 in which they conquered the Midianites.
After prevailing in their assault they were commanded by God to slay every male including children and infants. They could spare females who were virgins, but any women or young female who wasn't an virgin was to be put to death. Females who were spared were then keep as little more than sex slaves.
I believe that most would agree that people would still claim that they were given this land by God are ridiculously delusional.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Abraham...and that's where this particular issue was created (by the Abrahamic god, apparently).
Most of these other players are in some way also mentioned in the supposedly historical version in the Old Testament. Blood and gore for millenia...King after King...other civilizations/cultures have similar events with similar players, just slanted differently.
But some of them come back...notably the Persians, the Jews, the Egyptians, and what is now called the Arabs. Another post refers to Hydra...the multi-tentacled/headed mythological creature, made myth and held in the collective psyche (IMO). Every ME war we chop off one "head" and two more appear. First Iraq, then Iran (too big to bomb so we do the sanction thingy) now Syria/Isis, arming Israel, pissing off the brown Americas, Venezuela and others (Quetzalcoatl), et al.
This has no good ending, short of Hercules reappearing (the Savior in the Hydra Myth). And even that is covered in Revelations and attributed to Jesus Christ coming down from Heaven to create peace (after Armageddon) and sit on the throne of Jewish Mount of Jerusalem.
Myths are powerful elements of a cultural, national, religious psyche. Most are symbology from constellations ... which name our "Star Power". Did they happen? No one knows for sure. But the elements/behaviors can be seen every day. Zeus' group is especially interesting. I digress.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Response to Purveyor (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
LeftishBrit
(41,210 posts)I was all for pure PR until I found out how it distorted democracy and fuelled extremism in Israel.
Though Hotovely herself is a member of the Likud. The Likud in general is hawkish but secular, but she describes herself as a 'religious right-winger' and as well as being a one-stater, is strongly opposed to mixed marriages for example. She has accused liberal Israeli writer Amos Oz of being unable to distinguish Mordechai from Haman.
The religious right seem to be pretty similar in all faiths; and 'Hotovely' seems to be the Hebrew word for 'Palin'.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)This one's name translates to "Michelle Bachmann."
And these are the ones in charge of law enforcement and diplomacy in Israel.
LeftishBrit
(41,210 posts)Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)Israel
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,505 posts)SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)Final Solutions ready to implement.
Mosby
(16,350 posts)Bossy Monkey
(15,863 posts)FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)suggested that nuking Iran would be a moral thing to do.
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)It does NOT serve their aim of territorial conquest if the Palestinians remain peaceful.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)olddots
(10,237 posts)isn't that spelled dip shit ?
Fournier
(42 posts)Eretz Ysrael - the kingdom of David, from the Med to the Jordan. Let's not even get started on the land that God gave Abraham, which goes from the Euphrates to the Nile.
tridim
(45,358 posts)Now, please seek help and rejoin humanity, then maybe we can begin to talk about solutions that don't involve killing everyone that isn't you.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Since, fictional stories (as long as they are called "Holy" are now the basis for land ownership.
"Ya, hear me know, may the southern most island off the Land of the Mouse, shall forever be given to the poster FLPanhandle and all his descendants"
That should do it.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)by US authorities, then why the heck not? Go for it. Claim the Earth's supply of fresh water, while you're at it - could be profitable.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)Xolodno
(6,401 posts)Palestine declared itself Samaria and was entitled to all of northern Israel. Oh and claim that they are the "lost tribes" but God told them to convert to Islam.
romanic
(2,841 posts)but why can't Israel and Palestine just merge into one unified country? I know about the religious and government differences and all that, but can't both nations push aside the past and figure out a way to become one?