Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Newsjock

(11,733 posts)
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 08:53 AM Jun 2015

CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation

Source: The Guardian

The Central Intelligence Agency had explicit guidelines for “human experimentation” before, during and after its post-9/11 torture of terrorism detainees, the Guardian has learned, which raise new questions about the limits on internal oversight over the agency’s in-house and contracted medical research.

Sections of a previously classified CIA document, made public by the Guardian on Monday, empower the agency’s director to “approve, modify, or disapprove all proposals pertaining to human subject research”. The leeway provides the director, who has never in the agency’s history been a medical doctor, with significant influence over limitations the US government sets to preserve safe, humane and ethical procedures on people.

... After reviewing the document, one watchdog said the timeline suggested the CIA manipulated basic definitions of human experimentation to ensure the torture program proceeded.

“Crime one was torture. The second crime was research without consent in order to say it wasn’t torture,” said Nathaniel Raymond, a former war-crimes investigator with Physicians for Human Rights and now a researcher with Harvard University’s Humanitarian Initiative.

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/15/cia-torture-human-experimentation-doctors

30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
CIA torture appears to have broken spy agency rule on human experimentation (Original Post) Newsjock Jun 2015 OP
The CIA has rules? Kelvin Mace Jun 2015 #1
I know! nt valerief Jun 2015 #7
Doesn't apply to "harsh treatment" and "stress positions." Didn't you people get the memo? n/t leveymg Jun 2015 #2
Why should this surprise us? The bush administration brought us as close to Nazi Germany as jwirr Jun 2015 #3
The role of CIA medical personnel. Alkene Jun 2015 #4
They were collecting information as to how far they can torture a person using certain Ikonoklast Jun 2015 #25
Right. Alkene Jun 2015 #26
If that is not shades of Dr. Mengele I do not know what is. dixiegrrrrl Jun 2015 #30
Sick bastards. SoapBox Jun 2015 #5
Can we NOW say that the US is a country with sanctioned torture? DetlefK Jun 2015 #6
+1 a huge bunch! Enthusiast Jun 2015 #15
I've been saying it for years. Solly Mack Jun 2015 #23
It's just some folks torturing some folks. L0oniX Jun 2015 #8
Really sick democrank Jun 2015 #9
It was strategic countryken Jun 2015 #10
You think so? Roy Rolling Jun 2015 #12
True. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #16
When a new President takes office these folks are still there at the CIA. jalan48 Jun 2015 #11
I can't help but wonder if that was the source for Cheney's new heart. NorthCarolina Jun 2015 #13
I feel certain it was a live volunteer. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #17
Stomach-churning stuff dorkzilla Jun 2015 #14
Five deferment Cheney said the Geneva Convention no longer applied. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #18
Seriously? He unilaterally decided? dorkzilla Jun 2015 #19
He actually did say something to that effect. Dubya Bush would never question his proclamations. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #21
I may be mistaken, but I thought the Geneva Conventions only applied... Nitram Jun 2015 #24
You’re probably right, but this kind of leaves the door open for vagaries... dorkzilla Jun 2015 #27
I Believe he said it in response to the outrage over Abu Ghraib anyway. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #28
There should be some Ludwig Van playing in the background. Deny and Shred Jun 2015 #20
Or Wagner Enthusiast Jun 2015 #29
K&R Solly Mack Jun 2015 #22

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
3. Why should this surprise us? The bush administration brought us as close to Nazi Germany as
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 09:22 AM
Jun 2015

we have ever been before. Sickening and no one will ever be brought to justice.

Alkene

(752 posts)
4. The role of CIA medical personnel.
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 09:27 AM
Jun 2015
"When Zubaydah, the first detainee known to be waterboarded in CIA custody, 'became completely unresponsive, with bubbles rising through his open, full mouth', he was revived by CIA medical personnel – known as the Office of Medical Services (OMS)"

"But other physicians and human rights experts who have long criticized the role of medical staff in torture said the extensive notes from CIA doctors on the interrogations – as they unfolded – brought OMS into the realm of human experimentation, particularly as they helped blur the lines between providing medical aid to detainees and keeping them capable of enduring further abusive interrogations."

Because you can't torture a dead person.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
25. They were collecting information as to how far they can torture a person using certain
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 02:04 PM
Jun 2015

techniques.

That's where the medical experimentation charge comes in.

Not only were they torturing people, they treated them as test subjects.


If the people in charge of government of this nation at that time were allowed to treat its perceived enemies in this way without being charged with a crime, and suffered no punishment, just hope their ilk never get into power again and you never get designated an enemy of the state.


Republicans already know they can get into the highest office of this nation and murder and/or torture humans and get away with it.

Alkene

(752 posts)
26. Right.
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 03:47 PM
Jun 2015

They were torturing people while recording data and observations of the effects of torture on the human body, and when the the victims started to die they'd revive them so they could start all over again.
Does it get more evil than to prevent even death as a release from the horrors being inflicted upon you? Would that not be an archetype for Hell?

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
30. If that is not shades of Dr. Mengele I do not know what is.
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 07:19 PM
Jun 2015

edited to add:



'Among all criminals and murderers, the most dangerous type is the criminal physician' - Miklos Nyiszli, prisoner and pathologist to Dr. Josef Mengele at Auschwitz

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
6. Can we NOW say that the US is a country with sanctioned torture?
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:09 AM
Jun 2015

The la-and of the free...
Where sit-in gets you a face-full of pepper-spray, where shooting people in the back is policing and where torturers get protected.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
15. +1 a huge bunch!
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 11:41 AM
Jun 2015

Things have changed.

Yes, it was bad before. But this is bad to a whole other level. The media won't make a peep.

democrank

(11,112 posts)
9. Really sick
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:41 AM
Jun 2015

Too bad President Obama didn`t have the courage or moral decency to try to hold these war criminals accountable.

The head nodders have made excuses for way, way too much.

countryken

(114 posts)
10. It was strategic
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 10:51 AM
Jun 2015

He had to appease the GOP on the war crimes front so that they would work with him during his presidency. That 's why they've been so cooperative and respectful over the last eight years.

Roy Rolling

(6,941 posts)
12. You think so?
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 11:09 AM
Jun 2015

I thought they've been so accommodative is because they wanted to work with the nation's first African-American president to make his presidency a success.

Silly me.

jalan48

(13,895 posts)
11. When a new President takes office these folks are still there at the CIA.
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 11:06 AM
Jun 2015

That's why it's hard to take our elections seriously. Obama has known of these illegal and immoral activities. Why hasn't he cleaned house at the CIA? Maybe the answer is that the CIA is too powerful for any President to take on, a scary thought for a democracy.

dorkzilla

(5,141 posts)
14. Stomach-churning stuff
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 11:40 AM
Jun 2015

That, inevitably, will come back to bite us in the ass when, in the next war, someone EVEN MORE DEVIOUS THAN US decides to conduct “experiments” on our soldiers. Don’t really think we can cry “GENEVA CONVENTION”, now can we?

I don’t understand Obama’s reluctance to bring at least a few of these sickos to trial, but I’m also puzzled by the UN’s disinterest. Certainly that is part of their function...to investigate war crimes and bring those criminals to justice?

dorkzilla

(5,141 posts)
19. Seriously? He unilaterally decided?
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 11:48 AM
Jun 2015

WTF WTF WTF????????

Seems to me if I was a member of the United Nations and someone said the Geneva Convention rules were like soooooo towtally Twentieth Century duh, I’d be in a big hurry to investigate why said moron felt compelled to make such a damning proclamation.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
21. He actually did say something to that effect. Dubya Bush would never question his proclamations.
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 12:44 PM
Jun 2015

He didn't seem to understand that the Geneva Convention protected the good guys during WWII.

Nitram

(22,900 posts)
24. I may be mistaken, but I thought the Geneva Conventions only applied...
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 02:01 PM
Jun 2015

...to people in uniform. That is, the military fores of a recognized country. The United Nations Convention on Torture,however, of which the U.S. is a signatory, expressly prohibits torture of anyone for any reason.

dorkzilla

(5,141 posts)
27. You’re probably right, but this kind of leaves the door open for vagaries...
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 04:01 PM
Jun 2015

The men we were torturing certainly saw themselves as soldiers, but we just say “nah...they’re lone wolf terrorists, nothing to see here”...what’s to stop other nations from saying the same about our soldiers?

And since we’re SO good at hiring companies like Blackwater (or its latest inception/incarnation) they can just torture the shit out of anyone associated with those paramilitary groups. Like their tech support. Or drivers. Or anyone else who happens to get a paycheck from those kinds of firms but has no combat function whatsoever. If we can ignore the letter AND the spirit of agreements whereby we solemnly swear not to torture people, then everyone is fair game.

Point is WE opened a giant can o’ worms. Someone REALLY needs to get Shrub, Cheney et al and try them for war crimes.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
28. I Believe he said it in response to the outrage over Abu Ghraib anyway.
Mon Jun 15, 2015, 05:45 PM
Jun 2015

Anyway you look at it he is the worst kind of creature. Wolverine if you're from Ohio and weasel if you're from somewhere else. Terrible thing to say about wolverines and weasels.
[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»CIA torture appears to ha...