There are two places on Earth which are uniquely suited for world-class visual astronomy, one in the northern hemisphere, Mauna Kea, and one in the southern hemisphere, the Atacama desert in the high Andes in Chile. That is why all the world's largest telescopes reside at those two locations. There just are not any other locations like these. There is no other place that the Thirty Meter Telescope could be built. It belongs on Mauna Kea and should be built there.

The observatory on Mauna Kea has been there for many decades, as have the largest optical telescopes in the world.

The protesters should get their wishes and be arrested.

on edit: and this isn't a large group of protesters. It is a fringe group of ignorant kooks.

AP are ignorant kooks, in my opinion. I don't call them the Associated Pukes for nothing. They have repeatedly, and unforgivably, served the interests of those who wage unjust war, steal billions and billions of dollars, steal elections and destroy democracy, here and elsewhere. I do not trust their reporting.

I also wouldn't denigrate a protest because it isn't large or because its point is unusual ("fringe&quot . I've just lived too long, I guess, and know too much history, to dismiss anyone's view, out of hand, because it's just one person or a few people, when they are taking personal risks to peacefully express their views.

My first impression is that I don't agree with these protestors. I passionately support telescope building and space exploration. And this is not the first major telescope at that site. So I wonder why they are protesting the new telescope. I would like to know more about their views. It could be that Native Hawaiians have just been ignored and pushed aside once too often, regarding use of this site. I DON'T KNOW if their grievance is justified--or would be justified in my view--without more direct information, not from a corpo-fascist news source.

As for the horrors of development on Hawaii's beaches, as someone mentions below (why aren't they protesting that, instead of science?), it could be BECAUSE of that horrible development that the mountaintop has become more precious to them as a sacred site. They see yet more roads, more trucks, more heavy equipment, more construction, more people, more disruption, more noise, etc., and this has happened once too often. I very much want the new telescope but I am not a Native Hawaiian; it is not MY precious last bit of sacred environmental ground. It also occurs to me that those of us who passionately support space exploration need to answer the question: If we DO discover intelligent life, or any life, elsewhere--one of our major motivations for investment in astronomy--will we brutally shove it aside and destroy it, in our society's insatiable greed for resources, as we have done to native peoples in the U.S. and all over planet Earth?

We DO need to think about our motives and our society's major ills, even in a case like this, which seems to be one of pristine innocence--pure scientific curiosity, EVIDENTLY harmless, harmless from OUR point of view. Have these considerations been taken into sufficient account by the telescope builders? I DON'T KNOW. So I'm not going to dismiss these protesters as "kooks." I don't have sufficient information to make a judgement of their protest.

First, the observatory is only on a part of the summit set aside specifically for the purpose of astronomy decades ago. It's location was specifically selected for the purposes of reducing both cultural and environmental impact. There is plenty of Mauna Kea summit that is not observatory. It is a rather large mountain. And AFAIK the TMT will not expand the observatory area. Plus its location was selected specifically to be sensitive to both environment and cultural impact.

Second, the observatory grounds are purposefully kept as pristine as possible to have minimal to no impact on the environment or the view of the summit. This includes native flora and fauna. If one goes to the observatory Web site they have a page about environmental (and cultural) impact. The extent that the protesters say this is not so is the extent that they are not being truthful.

Third, the observatory is at such a high altitude that astronomers don't even work there. The air pressure is too thin which makes it difficult to think. The number of staff at the summit is minimum for this reason and also to preserve the environment on the observatory grounds.

Fourth, who says the native volcano gods do not like learning about the universe?

I do not apologize for using strong language about this issue because many protesters don't just want to block the TMT, they want no astronomy whatsoever on the summit, which is a rather extreme and kooky position to take and is anyway a non-starter, especially since the observatory is by far the finest on the planet. Blocking the telescope is a very anti-science position to take.

http://oiwi.tv

http://kahea.org/press-room/press-clips/mauna-kea2013sacred-summit-or-cash-cow-controversy-over-the-thirty-meter-telescope

http://www.civilbeat.com/2015/06/mauna-kea-telescope-protesters-arrested-as-tmt-resumes-construction/


http://oiwi.tv/maunakea/


It's not just a few fringe kooks. There's a huge upwelling of resistance and the telescopes just happen to be a perfect context to act on it. Where other protests are ignored, protests there are news. There's one road up, and it can be blocked easily. The leaders of this action are deeply connected to all the islands.

When I was in Hilo during Merrie Monarch hula festival, there were protests on every major intersection, and horns were blasting continuously in support from passersbye who ordinarily don't beep their horns. The protests are not just on the mountain, they are all over, including a vigil in front of the state capitol.

It's a mistake to misread the protesters as just a few anything. Even yesterday a friend, flying to the Big Island yesterday, noted that the plane was full of mauna protestors. Young people have adopted the image which I can't post here that has come to symbolize resistance for the mauna. People feel like it's a "this far and no further" kind of moment.

To the point that we'd be better protesting the hotels, it's not an 'or' thing. People have just frikken had it.

The last telescope was supposed to be the -last- telescope. This telescope would be so collossal, it would dominate the landscape. The impacts on the aquifers from the pounding the mountain would take to lay the immensely thick concrete foundation are a problem.

The whole colonial idea that our benefit should be received regardless of the cost to others is part of the problem. The racism inherent in the snide comments that have shown up all over the place on this matter, even here on DU, are kind of revolting.

I am not speaking for them. I don't even really agree with them, completely. Lacking any other DUer who sees what's going on here and cares to post here, I'm giving a quick summary.

I'm glad someone has been teaching nonviolent resistance, as the feelings run very deep on this matter here. So far, so good, thank goodness.

I was just researching it myself, and I'm beginning to realize that this is a big and long term movement that likely resulted from wrongfully fast-tracked environmental impact processes--i.e., ordinary people were ignored, once again, and environmental review was inadequate. Also, this protest movement is broad-based and diverse, including Native Hawaiians, environmental groups, ordinary citizens, ASTRONOMERS (see below) and celebrities (such as World Series MVP Madison Bumgarner and "Game of Thrones" star Jason Mamoa). This is very decidedly NOT "a few kooks."

And the issues go beyond Native Hawaiian sacred sites, and include environmental impacts (this is a large footprint telescope that will be 18 stories high--both a discrete and a cumulative impact, given the 13 other telescopes), the use of public lands that were set aside for conservation, the use of public funds, and disregard for these important matters in the decision-making process.

Here is some further information:

BBC: Mauna Kea defenders protest against 18-storey high telescope
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-32239000

Everything You Need To Know About The Viral Protests Against A Hawaii Telescope
(excellent photos: See the ones labeled "Hawaii before" and "Hawaii after" for impacts of the telescopes)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/13/hawaii-telescope-protests-tmt-mauna-kea_n_7044164.html

Using the hashtags #DecolonizeSTEM and #DecolonizeAstronomy on Twitter, many scientists weighed in about their conflicted emotions regarding TMT. The project “is predicated on this idea that we have some permission to take over these spaces and use them for scientific research,” Adam Burgasser, an associate professor of astrophysics at the University of California, San Diego, told BuzzFeed. “Even though I benefit greatly from that professionally, I don’t think we can make that assumption that we have rights to this mountain," he added.--Huffington Post (my emphasis)

Thirty Meter Telescope protests
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Meter_Telescope_protests

-----------------------

I still DON'T KNOW whether I think that the telescope builders should abandon this site and go elsewhere (they do have other options). I am so tantalized by the prospects for mind-boggling new discoveries about the Universe, including (but not limited to) the search for other lifeforms and sentient beings! This telescope will greatly advance those discoveries, by many orders of magnitude.

In a way, I--and I think many others--are starving for this expanded view of existence, because our own society has been so damaged by the greed and power of the uber-rich, and the wrongful and disastrous path of war and bullying of others. Some of our young people feel so bereft of a future, feel that life is so meaningless, that they go shoot up kindergartens and churches. It is appalling! And our democracy seems powerless to do anything about it. Is there nothing good, and worthy, that our society can produce? Or are we just chattels of those who put high-powered weapons into the hands of the hopeless-feeling young? The latter seems to be our "signature"--mass killings by lost youngsters; also, racist killings by the police. Astronomy, astrophysics, space exploration offer hope that we can do something right.

Well, the protesters have caused me to THINK. And those "before" and "after" photos are deeply impressive. These telescopes absolutely destroy the natural landscape, even without the new bigger one. The current degradation is no argument FOR further degradation. (I've heard that one too often from logging corporations, who use the lack of endangered species as an excuse to further destroy the forest, and also cheat and lie to get around protecting endangered species and other resources.) I am torn, like the above-mentioned astronomers who also want the new telescope. I can SEE what the protestors are talking about, and it IS real. It is neither a minor matter nor a "kooky" one. Do we further degrade a bit of our increasingly degraded, beautiful, bountiful Mother Earth, in order to see 13 billion years back to the beginning of it all, to see how beautiful and amazing all THAT is, all that "out there," and ignore those who love what's IN here, now?

I fear that the protestors will be just run over, because it is a Big Tech thing, and the rich and the powerful like Big Tech things. But it's not just any Tech--it's ASTRONOMY, one of MY biggest loves!

Torn.

The protestors will never run out of people willing to be arrested.

Thank you again, aloha.

http://thegardenisland.com/news/local/over-demonstrators-stall-construction/article_b1db120e-e49d-5baf-82d0-73b95b7425b6.html?mode=jqm

“DLNR came up first and we were holding them at the crosswalk,” he said. “Up the mountain where there was no pavement anymore, the strategy was to have a line of guys to hold back the line of officers, so everytime the officers came close, they had to address that group of line and say, ‘If you guys don’t move, we going to have to arrest you.’”

Hansen, who arrived on the mountain Tuesday evening, said the protesters rose as early as 4 a.m. to prepare.

“Was in general kapu aloha – very much a peaceful thing,” he said. “At first, there was a lot of confrontation. The DLNR director had a real emotional (moment). He was just like, ‘I’m sorry I’m doing this. I don’t want to be doing this.’”

Hansen, who was also on the mountain for the April demonstration, said the demonstrators will be up early today to figure out their next move.

“Everyone (acted) in the most respectful manner — very pono with kapu aloha and try to figure out the next strategy,” he said.

"Kapu" means forbidden. We get the word "taboo" from the same root. People put up signs on their property saying, "KAPU," meaning "KEEP OUT." "Aloha" means love. "Kapu aloha" = forbidden love, which is said to be "pono" (good) in the article. WTF does that mean?

I got into a lengthy and acrimonious debate on the last go-round, with people who refused to even countenance any worldview outside of what is loosely called Western Civilization.

I don't want to do that again, but I do wish the Hawaiians, the keiki o ka aina, well.

I ready you sister!

.....in Honolulu?

Would love to go get lunch and talk story IRL.

Those reunions are busy times though

Last edited Sat Jun 27, 2015, 02:00 AM - Edit history (1)

when I go to Kaua'i one day, I'll pm you

I'm in Santa Barbara, which is a pretty good place to have landed.

sorry!

It's not like they're building a McDonald's there. They’re building an observatory to study the heavens. There's already 14 large telescopes there. It's one of two such ideal observatory spots on the entire planet.

I think the gaudy hotels being built on beautiful beaches is much more of a desecration. I wish these folks were protesting that, not telescopes.

Why are these benighted bigots protesting the upgrade of a pristine scientific installation--a site dedicated to understanding the very natural forces that they say they are trying to protect?

There is a long audio-visual presentation there that tries to interweave ancient Hawaiian religious beliefs with scientific investigation, to convince locals that building observatories is really a kind of respect for the old nature-gods.

The identity politics Hawaiians don't buy it. For one thing, it's BS. For another thing, they want some money. That's what these protests are really about. The protestors want compensation from the observatories, the state and the feds for the "desecration" of "their" mountain. In the past, scholarships, grants, etc. have bought them off. That's what they want this time, too.

See? Proved you wrong!

I think it's reasonable to respect native traditions, but as I understand it, the TMT has been sited AWAY from where traditional ceremonies and rituals are performed, and is not visible form those sites. It's a HUGE FREAKIN' MOUNTAIN! There is room to accommodate both the native traditional needs and wants and the TMT. They aren't building a fracking well up there FFS.

I'm all for conservation and respect for native land and traditions, but this is just silly, IMO.

So, I'll say what I always say as to why there aren't casinos (other than Native Indian) in Florida - there hasn't been enough money passed around yet. When there is, things will move ahead.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21383435/ns/us_news-life/

Keep whining! Pomaika`i.

Science advances thru a series of funerals , why wait ? .
e.o.m.