Poll: Majority Sees Confederate Flag as Southern Pride Symbol, Not Racist
Source: CNN
Washington (CNN)American public opinion on the Confederate flag remains about where it was 15 years ago, with most describing the flag as a symbol of Southern pride more than one of racism, according to a new CNN/ORC poll. And questions about how far to go to remove references to the Confederacy from public life prompt broad racial divides.
The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education.
Among African-Americans, 72% see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, just 25% of whites agree. In the South, the racial divide is even broader. While 75% of Southern whites describe the flag as a symbol of pride and 18% call it a symbol of racism, those figures are almost exactly reversed among Southern African-Americans, with just 11% seeing it as a sign of pride and 75% viewing it as a symbol of racism.
Among whites, there's a sharp divide by education, and those with more formal education are less apt to see the flag as a symbol of pride. Among whites with a college degree, 51% say it's a symbol of pride, 41% one of racism. Among those whites who do not have a college degree, 73% say it's a sign of Southern pride, 18% racism.
READ: The complete CNN/ORC poll here
Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/
Judi Lynn
(160,536 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)in which they're viewing the object.
Some people believed that a cross in a container of urine was art and many others were offended by it.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And, as with the flag, many people don't have the courage of their convictions and call it something other than what they in fact, believe...
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)Some people revere the cross and some people despise, it doesn't make them any less sincere in their beliefs.
The same holds true for the flag.
For Freddie
(79 posts)I'd like to see this broken down in terms of how many WOMEN revere the flag's white male "tradition" narrative and how many UNDERSTAND this flag reflects cruelty violence and pro-slavery no matter how it is painted.
The CNN stats seem to be in line with the anti-Palestinian pro Israel stats which sinc up to the fundamentalists in the South. I do not believe it is accurate. I think it is a kind of paid for feel good right wing crap study to see how it goes ,running up the flag pole. It sure brought em out here on the DU. This is not something for "debate". This is something for mature leadership.
This is about EMPATHY, compassion and emotional maturity for
others who have suffered. It is not about respect for white male adolescent ego woof woof. This is not about M'Daddy, or the past or pride. This is truly about terrorizing children of color. And wanting to do that.
No matter how the white males in the south see it or feel it for themselves, it represents suffering to others. Time to grow the fuck up. And time for the rest of us to not be precious about "debating" this. As a parent and grand parent there is a time when you have to tell the kids to shut their pie hole and behave like human beings.We no longer need to enable this nor protect it. We need to heal the whole situation and let it drop into history where it belongs. Heritage means nothing when it comes up against quality of life for OTHERS. Caring for others with open hearts comes first to grown ups.
Maturity and emotional EMPATHY should come before one's own ego based attachments to the past and paternalism and largely a sexist view point. It is time to grow up, be open hearted, kind, mature and forget about one's past attachments in favor or caring for others here and now. They can always keep their flag over their bed and not hurt anyone else if they choose.
Creating peace and respect for those who have suffered and still are suffering is the priority. The white male narrative of guns, flags and "heritage" belong in the past. Time for a world of kindness respect, and images not based on violence to be embraced and accepted. Or escalated.
This a retarded,disruptive narrative from the past has to go.
To refer to the Civil War as the "war of Northern Aggression" from members of my family would be laughable if it wasn't so retarded and in denial of their own beliefs and behaviors which have been destructive and violent.
We have enabled this violent imagery and immature behavior for more than a century. It is time to grow up and get with the program. It is time to let go and HEAL. And to stop insisting this kind of adolescent belief system is healthy, positive or
needed.
Screw heritage. Screw male bound negative destructive traditions that hurt others. Screw the whole backward narrative.
It is time for healing. Time to respect those who have been and still are victims. This "heritage" is STILL inciting emotional and psychological terrorism and continuing the conflict.
This is like the Germans wanting to fly the Nazi flag outside Auschwitz, while survivors come to lay flowers, insisting it is their "tradition" and right to do so. Bull Shit and we all know it.Or perhaps those who have a yen for child sex abuse should be allowed to fly their flag and tradition?
Why even argue this anymore?
All you who revere "tradition" you can put up your flag over your fire places or over your beds. Enjoy. Be proud. The rest of us don't need to see it or the fear and hurt it causes others. Nor should we.
I have black children in my family. They are more important to the future of this country than symbols of "tradition" and slavery of the past. Understanding and accepting that is an indication of emotional maturity, sanity and mental health.
Igel
(35,309 posts)I find something offensive. You don't. How do we navigate that problem, assuming that neither side actually intends anything offensive? (Imputing ill-will is something that we can't control; suspicion, hate, fear aren't amenable to serious discussion.)
Do I have to understand your position and accept that my views don't override yours or do you have to understand my position and accept that my views should guide your behavior?
Old rule: Don't be rude. If you have something to say that hurts somebody's feelings, don't say it. This is something that is demanded of yourself, but not others, on grounds of civility, and everybody has the right to not act on a right.
New rule: You can't let yourself be governed by others; you have rights, and you're free to exercise them whatever others may think. They're not, of course, because you have rights and they don't.
This works with the Confederate flag; it works with the rainbow flag. Do you exercise a right if it offends; or do you waive your right to exercise that right if it offends.
Appeals to "Yes, but my morality is the one true one" are too self-centered and belief-centered for serious discussion. Few believe themselves to have a piss-poor morality that should be ignored and despised. If we hold such a view, we tend to seek out a new moral code and adopt it.
What's left these days is to find a reasoned compromise, sort of a "sometimes you do/sometimes you don't" kind of arrangement, except nobody wants a compromise. You can't fly something discretely because it gets tweeted and posted in order to become notorious. People often prefer to shove their views down the other's throat while chortling how good victory feels--and if it offends, great.
In fact, it's even all the rage in some quarters to attribute ill-will whenever possible.
Which doesn't solve the argument. It removes the old kludge--get along to get along. What's left is outrage and, well, more hurt feelings as everybody's the victim.
840high
(17,196 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)The 'battle flag' is a symbol of slavery and oppression. Full stop.
This 'Southern Pride' meme is just an effort to whitewash this symbol of treason and villainy.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)2. How do feel about the cross, is putting it in a container of urine art or offensive?
blackspade
(10,056 posts)1) Revising history involves clarification and additional facts, not denial of reality.
2) This question is relevant how? It's a leading question based on a false analogy.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.
Aldous Huxley
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/aldoushuxl386509.html#K1PfXECk0WWOS6Q2.99
blackspade
(10,056 posts)We are discussing the use and display of a symbol of racism, oppression, and white supremacy.
The "Southern Cross" was originally conceived as a symbol of racism and continues to be used as such to this day.
What are you trying to accomplish here? What is your agenda? Explain please, because each of your posts seems to lead further down the rabbit hole of defending slavery.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)How do you feel about this flag based on the history behind it?
Do you want to see it plastered all over the South as some kind of badge of honor?
I sure as fuck don't. As a son of the South, I find it a rancid reminder of a time when humans were treated like cattle.
It is a despicable symbol of oppression.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)If you can't be bothered to read and comprehend my OP and thread, which clearly states where I'm coming from, there is nothing more I can do for you.
Peace to you.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)That is such a paternalistic turn of phrase.
Like there is some sort of higher discussion level that is devoid of passion where the robot people will make the objective decisions for those who are "too emotional"
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)From your previous posts 58.
We are discussing the use and display of a symbol of racism, oppression, and white supremacy.
The "Southern Cross" was originally conceived as a symbol of racism and continues to be used as such to this day.
What are you trying to accomplish here? What is your agenda? Explain please, because each of your posts seems to lead further down the rabbit hole of defending slavery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence. It also means "the practice of making unfair allegations or using unfair investigative techniques, especially in order to restrict dissent or political criticism."[1] The term has its origins in the period in the United States known as the Second Red Scare, lasting roughly from 1950 to 1956 and characterized by heightened political repression against communists, as well as a campaign spreading fear of their influence on American institutions and of espionage by Soviet agents. Originally coined to criticize the anti-communist pursuits of Republican U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin, "McCarthyism" soon took on a broader meaning, describing the excesses of similar efforts. The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries.
Nothing I have posted here in any way, shape or form defends slavery, racism or secession, I gave you a link to my OP and thread explaining my thoughts and background, you dismissed it as a "manifesto" on post 61 without any rebuttal to actual points in that thread or this one, I doubt you even read it.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)You can't seem to make a definitive statement about the battle flag.
Rather you are hiding behind the 'shades of grey' curtain.
You can't have it both ways.
I'm done at this point since you can't actually address the issue at hand.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)which the viewer sees it.
The issue at hand is symbols and their meaning, you argue that everyone has the same perception as your own, that's illogical.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perception?s=t
noun
1.
the act or faculty of perceiving, or apprehending by means of the senses or of the mind; cognition; understanding.
2.
immediate or intuitive recognition or appreciation, as of moral, psychological, or aesthetic qualities; insight; intuition; discernment:
an artist of rare perception.
3.
the result or product of perceiving, as distinguished from the act of perceiving; percept.
4.
Psychology. a single unified awareness derived from sensory processes while a stimulus is present.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)What was the flag's original purpose? To represent an army fighting for the preservation of the institution of slavery.
Why was it revived in the late 1940s? To represent the white supremacists in the South in their fight against civil rights.
These are facts that are not open to interpretation.
My 'perception' is based on these facts.
No more white washing here.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 3, 2015, 06:16 PM - Edit history (1)
but it wasn't the only dynamic in determining whether the average Southerner joined the Confederate Army or not.
As for the anti-Civil Rights users.
Fear trumps reason, reason trumps faith and faith trumps fear.
The KKK and anti-Civil Rights politicians used the Confederate Battle Flag to create an emotional; (fear of federal power) (affinity for the average Confederate Soldier) connection to the mass of Southerners which in the case of the Civil Rights movement also coincided with the approach of the Civil War's centennial.
Once they had the emotional connection it was easy to stoke and magnify the flames of racism.
Bush/Cheney would use the same strategy on the American People as a whole after 9/11, those numbers were repeated incessantly by the corporate media along side that of Saddam Hussein creating and tying together an emotional (fear of another terrorist attack) and (affinity for the victims of 9/11) overwhelming emotional climate. Just before we Invaded Iraq a large majority of the American People, I believe it was 70+% actually believed Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11 and that he possessed weapons of mass destruction despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Look at their own secession documents.
Never mind, don't bother. I'm done with this conversation. There seems to be no way of getting through to you with facts.
You appear to be trolling at this point.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)in the newspapers and for those that couldn't read from their friends of "Northern Aggression" against the states or south.
They lived in an entirely different, rural and smaller world than our own, identifying in many cases first and foremost with their friends, families, towns, cities, states and region, Washington D.C. might as well have been a thousand miles away.
I'm not suggesting some didn't fight to perpetuate slavery or weren't racists, but racists filled the ranks of both armies, North and South.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)It's not like it was on government property or publicly promoted.
The reaction to Piss Christ was the interesting part about it.
Popular art in words, song and images refer to a "blood" drenched cross all the time.
Many of those images are much more disturbing to me than a cross in just another body fluid.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)But still evoking passionate conversation nearly 30 years later.
Which I find rather fascinating.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/martinluth101472.html#qtS5DQTCUedM7Q8S.99
Those who enjoy their own emotionally bad health and who habitually fill their own minds with the rank poisons of suspicion, jealousy and hatred, as a rule take umbrage at those who refuse to do likewise, and they find a perverted relief in trying to denigrate them.
Johannes Brahms
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Anger is the most impotent of passions. It effects nothing it goes about, and hurts the one who is possessed by it more than the one against whom it is directed.
Carl Sandburg
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History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be lived again.
Maya Angelou
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totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)majority of the public supports. Yes it's absurd to believe that that flag is not a racist symbol, but a lot of people believe a lot of absurd things.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)Chakab
(1,727 posts)a grossly inaccurate view of American history during their education and the general aversion that many people, even progressives who'd be inclined to frequent a forum like DU, have to characterizing racism as "racism" rather than being obtuse and pretending that it's not a pervasive issue so that uncomfortable conversations don't have to take place, I have no problem whatsoever believing the results of that poll.
3catwoman3
(23,987 posts)...exactly?
underpants
(182,803 posts)The CNN/ORC poll was conducted June 26-28 among a random national sample of 1,017 adults. Additional interviews were conducted with African-Americans and combined with those reached through the initial sample of 1,017 for a total of 303 non-Hispanic black respondents. The margin of sampling error for all adults is +/- 3 percentage points, for results among blacks it is +/- 5.5 percentage points. Results among the 727 non-Hispanic whites reached in the initial sample have a margin of sampling error of +/- 3.5 percent
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)NOLALady
(4,003 posts)once upon a time, the majority had no problem with Mr. Jim Crow.
There was also a time when the majority had no problem with enslaving others and slaughtering Natives.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)Most people don't know the difference from the Revolutionary War or the Civil War, in other words they are clueless.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)And on top of that, neo-Confederate propaganda has been very effective in painting over the true nature and cause of secession (which was expressed quite unambiguously at the time).
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)I could (VERY slightly) understand what New York or Hollywood, California pride means. "Well, we have a lot of Arts and very talented people here if you count the percentage by population. ..again slightly.
But the South? What?...you think you're some Big Deal or something because you live in a certain place?
It's called the UNITED States.
Hell, I must be not seeing the obvious??
On Edit: I've never seen the people who live in New York or Hollywood running around with a bunch of idiotic, cornball flags hanging off of their vehicles.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)Since then we've been sucking off the federal teat, receiving far more in government largesse than we pay in taxes.
And by god we're really proud of that so we're gonna wave this flag in everybody's face.
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)Treason
Terror
Torture
Racism
Human rights violations
Pride ? Really ?
Reter
(2,188 posts)George Washington and his boys would have been charged with those two count if they failed. Had the Confederacy won and was still a separate country today, its founders would have national holidays.
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,536 posts)Quixote1818
(28,936 posts)Their pride in racism.
JudyM
(29,248 posts)Crowman1979
(3,844 posts)Hence why I think this CNN poll is not a true representation of the population.
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Roy Rolling
(6,917 posts)I am a southerner. That flag doesn't represent the values of southern hospitality, graciousness, tolerance, and other endearing qualities. It represents the battle flag of 1.6% of southerners who were slave owners and convinced a few states to declare war on the United States rather than give up slavery and their business. It is a losers battle flag, get over it fellow southerners.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)just what is the south proud of?
fucking yankees
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)bye bye TV Land.. at this rate they'll ban anything that makes bad things look funny. Bye bye The Interview....
Politicub
(12,165 posts)and it's so weird to think about southern pride.
christx30
(6,241 posts)is said by racists and homophobes about black pride and gay pride.
I guess it all just depends on one's own background and preconceived notions about others.
silenttigersong
(957 posts)or on your property,that works out well then people know who to avoid.It does nt belong anywhere public.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)The narrative can go both ways, and nobody is wrong.
DallasNE
(7,403 posts)This would be the flag they were displaying.
The pride displayed in the Confederate battle flag really surfaced when Strom Thurman ran for President in 1948 then South Carolina re-popularized it in 1961 as the flag of racist segregation.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)The Southern Cross or Confederate Battle Flag to many supporters actually represents the Confederate Soldier.
Some people would say the Confederate Battle Flag was co-opted by the KKK and politicians during the Civil Rights Era and is stained for that reason.
I believe that's because the KKK and those anti-Civil Rights politicians knew where the majority of Southerners' sympathies most deeply laid, not with slavery or even secession, but with the sacrifice of the Confederate Soldier.
atreides1
(16,079 posts)Or did they, like the Germans not know what was really going on? Because the KKK and anti-Civil Rights politicians sure did receive a lot of support from those people who were just concerned with the sacrifice of the Confederate Soldier...and then there were the lynchings and the murders...all done in remembrance of those poor stupid bastards who died for something that most of them never even had access to!
So, most Southerners were stupid then and some are still stupid now!!!
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)The KKK and anti-Civil Rights politicians used the Confederate Battle Flag to create an emotional; (fear) (affinity) connection to the mass of Southerners which in the case of the Civil Rights movement also coincided with the centennial of the Civil War.
Once they had the emotional connection it was easy to stoke and magnify the flames of racism.
Bush/Cheney would use the same strategy on the American People as a whole after 9/11, those numbers were repeated incessantly by the corporate media along side that of Saddam Hussein creating and tying together an emotional (fear of another terrorist attack) and (affinity for the victims of 9/11) overwhelming emotional climate. Just before we Invaded Iraq a large majority of the American People, I believe it was 70+% actually believed Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11 and that he possessed weapons of mass destruction despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
In that case I guess most Americans were stupid.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)It represents the Army of Virginia, the Army of Tennessee, and the CSA Navy from 1863-1865.
It is a flag of war carried by traitors in rebellion against the USA to perpetuate the system of oppression called SLAVERY. It is not an honorable symbol of the fighting man. It is a symbol of the military that fought to preserve an economic system that SHOULD be an affront to humanity.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)with the CSA Navy of course being all the Navy
More battles were fought in Virginia than any other state, with Tennessee coming in second.
This was their flag whether they were honorable or not, is in the eye of the beholder to argue otherwise, is to battle against logic and reason.
Who knows perhaps in 200 years or less our unrestrained capitalist system will wreck such havoc on human society, global warming, poverty, mass starvation and possibly extinction or a close variation thereof, that our descendants will judge us along with our fighting men and women; soldiers, Marines, navy and air force as doing nothing but working to preserve an economic system that was an even greater affront to humanity?
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Why are you arguing in favor of this symbol of oppression?
There is no middle ground to stand on here.
This flag doesn't represent the 'spirit' or 'honor' of the South.
It is the battle flag of those that rose up in the defense of slavery, hatred, and oppression.
And again, re capitalism, you are making an analogy that is invalid.
Your full throated defense of this flag based on some misplaced notion that it ever represented anything other than sedition and oppression is disheartening to see here at DU.
We definitely do not live in a post racial society.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)In no post have I defended the Confederate Battle Flag, every post that I have made is in regards to perception, "eye of the beholder," you contend that doesn't exist.
I never said we live in a post racial society, I have no doubt racists exists in all regions of our nation and they can be seen flying both flags, the Confederate and U.S.
Why is our current unrestrained capitalistic system a false analogy, do you deny the devastating effects from it?
blackspade
(10,056 posts)In actuality, you have been defending the battle flag by making this a matter of "'perception."
Perception or the "eye of the beholder" does not over-ride fact no matter how hard to want them too.
The fact is, and I'll reiterate this to you again, this flag was conceived by racists for racists and has been used as such to the present day.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)people perceive it differently depending on their life experiences and perception.
A symbol whether good or evil can be adopted by anyone with an entirely individualistic motivation for following or revering it.
Your reality is not all reality.
The U.S. Flag wasn't conceived as a racist symbol but slavery flourished under it for approximately 80years because the top 1% were making too much money from that institution in both the North and South. Atrocities against Native Americans also took place under the Stars and Stripes.
The same holds true for the cross we can go back at least well over a thousand years to list countless wars that were waged in the name of Christianity.
The Swastika is considered an evil symbol since the days of the Nazis but it dates back literally to the Stone Age as a benign sign, it's considered to be a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.
The Gadsen Flag or Don't Tread on Me Flag dates back to 1775 as an inspiration during the Revolutionary War and after it was adopted by the Tea Party less than ten years ago, some people here view it as tainted.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)How about sticking with the topic, the battle flag, instead of dragging whatever strawman you can think of into the discussion.
It is a technique to derail a topic off onto pointless tangents.
I'm not going to take the time to pick your, now five, strawmen apart because, well I don't have to.
Your ambiguous stance on the battle flag underscores your need to occupy some higher plane of 'reality' that you desperately want to consider as neutral and objective.
But like all things, you have to take a stand somewhere.
On the battle flag issue, I am firmly on the side that considers this flag a symbol of sedition, oppression, racism, and hatred.
My considered opinion is based on the facts about this flag's creation and use for the last 155 years or so. It's use on a Challenger and it's cynical rebranding as "heritage not hate" does not balance out the misery and death that have been perpetrated under it's colors. There is not any parity between the good and bad regarding this symbol.
That is the end of it for me.
Uncle Joe
(58,362 posts)Your own sentence that you just posted reiterates that, "On the battle flag issue, I am firmly on the side that considers this flag a symbol of sedition, oppression, racism, and hatred."
The Confederate Battle Flag is a colored piece of cloth, it can't love or hate, its an inanimate object, do you dispute that?
You see the world in black and white, good versus evil with no shades of gray and yet Lincoln's two most effective Generals during the Civil War either owned a slave briefly as in the case of Grant or in the case of Sherman supported slavery, sympathized with the South before the war and was a racist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman
Although his brother John was well known as an antislavery congressman, Sherman did not oppose slavery and was sympathetic to Southerners' defense of the institution. He opposed, however, any attempt at dissolving the Union.[29] On hearing of South Carolina's secession from the United States, Sherman observed to a close friend, Professor David F. Boyd of Virginia, an enthusiastic secessionist:
You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it... Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earthright at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.[30]
almost perfectly describing the four years of war to come.[31]
(snip)
Sherman was not an abolitionist before the war and, like others of his time and background, he did not believe in "Negro equality."[85][86] Before the war, Sherman at times even expressed some sympathy with the view of Southern whites that the black race was benefiting from slavery, although he opposed breaking up slave families and advocated teaching slaves to read and write.[29] During the Civil War, Sherman declined to employ black troops in his armies.[87]
(snip)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant
At age 32, with no civilian vocation, Grant struggled through seven financially lean years. His father initially offered him a place in the Galena, Illinois, branch of the tannery business, on condition that Julia and the children stay with her parents in Missouri or with the Grants in Kentucky. Ulysses and Julia opposed another separation and declined the offer.[36] In 1855, Grant farmed on his brother-in-law's property near St. Louis, using slaves owned by Julia's father.[36] The farm was not successful and to earn money he sold firewood on St. Louis street corners.[37] The next year, the Grants moved to land on Julia's father's farm, and built a home Grant called "Hardscrabble".[36] Julia hated the rustic house, which she described as an "unattractive cabin".[36] In 1857, Grant acquired a slave, a thirty-five-year-old man named William Jones, from his father-in-law.[38] The Panic of 1857 devastated farmers, including Grant, who was forced to rent out Hardscrabble the following year.[39]
Having met with no success farming, the Grants left the farm when their fourth and final child was born in 1858. Grant freed his slave in 1859 instead of selling him, at a time when slaves commanded a high price and Grant needed money badly.[38] For the next year, the family took a small house in St. Louis where he worked with Julia's cousin Harry Boggs as a bill collector, again without success.[40] In 1860, Jesse offered him the tannery job in Galena without conditions, and Grant accepted. The leather shop, "Grant & Perkins", sold harnesses, saddles, and other leather goods, and purchased hides from farmers in the prosperous Galena area. Grant and family moved to a rental house that year.[41]
These men had flaws, yet they fought under the symbol of "Old Glory" to preserve the union frankly I'm glad they won but if a slave supporter and Southern Sympathizer such as Sherman could fight under the Stars and Stripes despite it being against his own personal beliefs in regards to slavery or race, why is it then such a stretch to believe that many Confederate Soldiers fought under the Confederate Battle Flag to defend their homes, families, friends, towns, cities, states and region from a perceived federal invasion while personally being against slavery?
The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.
F. Scott Fitzgerald
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blackspade
(10,056 posts)I'm done wasting my time.
Your lack of reason in this discussion is disheartening.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Each person who identifies with the flag has their own reasons I suppose, and it's inevitable that not all will be racist reasons.
Where I start diverging is when people say it's not about racism at all. That's just crap. To pick on another timely analogy I'm sure plenty of people play golf because they like the challenge or the company or even the scenery. But Trump didn't make up the elitist mover and shaker crap out of the whole cloth. Like golf for whatever reason you choose, but claiming it's not also an elitist exclusionary and old-boy's-club pursuit too is being either dishonest or clueless. Just so with the flag and racism.
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)"Shit on the people and what they want and what they're ready for. I don't give a goddamn about the people and what they want."
-Thaddeus Stevens
6000eliot
(5,643 posts)graegoyle
(532 posts)...Who thinks people will admit that the flag they want to fly at the state capitol is all about racism?
Some people may be unaware about the real reasons for the Civil War, but most people who claim "Southern Pride" for their support for that flag are LYING.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)PSPS
(13,598 posts)This poll would mean something if it polled only armed and insane racists. Those are the ones who are the problem, not the ill-educated masses being churned out by the "corporate-model education industry" who have no knowledge of basic civics, let alone American history (except, maybe, that Jesus was a founding father.)
former9thward
(32,006 posts)This area of Brazil is called Americana. It is home to about 200,000 Confederate descendants (including some free slaves) who left the U.S. after the Civil War. The city added a Confederate flag to its coat of arms in honor of Carter's visit.
24601
(3,962 posts)former9thward
(32,006 posts)This is an actual city in Brazil. The Smithsonian Museum did an article about it recently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
24601
(3,962 posts)confederate battle flag isn't photo-shopped? It is dated during his term as Georgia Governor, 1971-1975.
It's then the mixing of earlier photos & quotes with today's issues - for example racism and/or the confederate battle flag.
Apply it to candidates for the 2016 presidential nomination and see why Bernie and Marty are looking better and better each campaign day?
I'll hypothesize that notwithstanding how detailed & controlling the Clinton machine is, they result in her coming off as tone deaf when it comes to transparency, open government and vetting names/issues associated with Candidate Hillary, Secretary Hillary, Senator Hillary or First Lady Hillary.
or example in the here we go again, Politico's report about George Soros jumping in to help Candidate Hillary's Super-PAC to a $24M payoff. Is this "Bernie doesn't have this baggage" or tongue in cheek, "Bernie wishes e had this level of baggage"?
Back to race, one of our contemporary recurring issues: should Secretary of State Hillary have accepted the 2009 acceptance of the award named for (planned parenthood founder) Margaret Sanger. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger_Awards
Isn't it reasonable to infer she knew of Sanger's unacceptable record on some key areas?
Margaret Sanger supported eugenics ["...assist the race toward the elimination of the unfit." ]expressed equally abhorrent views on race equality, for example...[from wiki] "Sanger's writings echoed ideas about inferiority and loose morals of particular races that were widespread in the contemporary United States", and "she references popular opinion that Aboriginal Australians were "just a step higher than the chimpanzee" with "little sexual control," as compared to the "normal man and Woman."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger
Hillary's campaign isn't yet self-destructing, but it's easy to see why, with her spotty record on visceral issues important to progressives, that Bernie is surging - at lease for now.
Senator Sander's candidacy has moved Hillary slightly left. With Webb announcing yesterday, 3rd way have an alternative to Hillary and the moderate Dem vote could be split - or at least contested. And that's good news for Bernie.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)This is without considering the ramifications of an insurrection founded on preserving slavery.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Fucking ignorant.
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)and the Roman/Hitler salute, well, the racists and haters will just come up with alternative symbols and gestures, like "La Quennelle." (Hope I spelled it right but doubt it.)
Its not going to stop the hate but it might subdue the surface hate, especially if people know they will go to jail for it.
There are, however, many positive sequences in America that might persuade people to abandon the hate altogether. Like this great, sincere POTUS we have. There probably will never be another one like him. I fear for our future when I see Trump polling 2nd.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Tell me something that I didn't know when I woke up this morning.
TrollBuster9090
(5,954 posts)Whites: 57% think blacks should continue to pick their cotton, and do other types of labor without wages.
Blacks: 99.7% oppose this idea, but since they only comprise 12% of the population, the majority wins. (Sorry guys, but the majority has spoken.)
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)A meaningless poll, to be sure. Try asking this question: "Do you consider yourself to be (a) a law abiding upstanding American or (b) an ignorant, hillbilly bigoted meth freak?" Guess which one most people will choose.
aceofblades
(73 posts)..news at 11