that they want to start a global pandemic, and now they have a body.

probably don't have any idea what the truth is.

One death is not a pandemic - but it was preventable.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/03/18/from-mccarthy-to-cavallari-how-much-harm-are-anti-vaccine-celebs-doing

Anyone? Bueller?

my shot?

If I go to the same church as my family doctor is my family's life in danger from gun toting anti-vax protesters?

How violent has this movement grown?

controversy how to deal with their own health issues, or those of their family members.

(Psst...Immunocompromised means she couldn't get vaccinated even if she wanted to)

When it comes to vaccines, you are not making decisions for yourself. You are making decisions for everyone you come into contact with.

I would tell them to fuck off and mind their own business.

I'll let you figure out the rest.

Now, you could realize you're blaming a dead woman for her own death because she did not do something that she could not do.

Or you can keep going and pretend you are the only important person.

If this particular issue is your pet peeve then good for you. I have my own pet peeves. But my right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose, and vice versa.

You have no idea what my practices are. For all you know I may be a hypochondriac who doctor shops to get two of every vaccine. It's none of your business, and it certainly has no direct impact on you as I have never met you.

law. As I said, incalculable.

Don't know anything about any "grifters". You have me confused with someone else.

when it is a choice you are making for your entire community.

You're regurgitating their story perfectly.

causes issues with my health issues

IT IS MY BUSINESS!!!

I mean, it's not like someone with a disease could end up spreading it or anything, right?

Seriously, do you people have any clue how fucking stupid that sounds?

substantially below the speed limit and back up traffic cause so much stress for other drivers that they are just as dangerous as people who drive too fast. But there is a limit to how much we can dictate others behavior. You think people who bomb abortion clinics aren't absolutely convinced that they hold the moral high ground?

Do you have a clue how fucking pompous and right wing you sound?

Vaccines prevent the spread of communicable disease.

If you choose to not get vaccinated, you leave yourself open to becoming sick.

If you become sick, you become a transmission vector for the disease.

The more transmission vectors there are, the greater the likelihood of an immunocompromised person--like the woman who died--catching the disease and not being able to recover from it.

Yours and HockeyMom's childish, selfish libertarian bullshit is fucking killing people.

You've made it clear that you've bought into the anti-vaxx nonsense hard, if you're not actually an anti-vaxxer yourself.

Get fucking vaccinated.

One expert on MSNBC this am, who is a vaccine researcher, said that measles spreads more rapidly than Ebola. Think of the children, elderly and those who have chronic diseases like cancer who are especially vulnerable.

They are issues of the community.

if it endangers others and reduces herd immunity.

That's a fact. Unless you live in a cave and never leave.

Unless you have specific medical reasons that make you intolerant to vaccines, if you choose not to get them you are putting vulnerable people at risk.

If you do have specific medical reasons that make you intolerant to vaccines, you should support everyone else getting them because otherwise they are putting you at risk.

Having the means and the knowledge to get the vaccines that are recommended by the CDC & the WHO and choosing not to do it is indefensible.

It isn't about YOU.

better to catch these diseases as children. Factor in this you are glossing over. COMPLICATIONS from Measles. Second question? How many inmmunocomprised, especially elderly, people are getting their Pneumonia Vaccinations? Not many. You are aware of these vaccines, aren't you? Or ONLY Measles?

You are focusing on Measles vaccination but not Pneumonia Vaccinations. I know a 62 year old woman who had her Flu Shot, still got the Flu, and was hospitalized with Pneumonia, not "from" the Flu. She did not get a Pneumonia vaccination prior.

Sounds like complications from pneumonia is more dangerous than either measles or the flu.

So, maybe you need to start demanding people get their Pneumonia Vaccinations????????

neither the measles, nor the flu. YOU don't get it. Complications, not the actual measles or the actual flu.

Wonder where I've heard that nonsense before?

Oh right, every fucking AIDS denier ever.

The pneumonia vaccine is not as effective in some immune-compromised people, and even the 23-valent vaccine won't protect someone from all types of pneumonia (aspirational, for example.)

Measles is highly contagious, pneumonia less so. That's why it makes more sense to emphasize measles vaccination over pneumococcal vaccination in most people under age 65.

Pneumonia is an infection of the lungs. Viruses, bacteria, fungi and even a couple parasites can cause pneumonia.

What Hockey Mom mislabels the "Pneumonia vaccine" is a vaccine against a bacteria. That did not kill this woman.

I know that the pneumoccal vaccines only protect against bacterial forms but wasn't sure if the virus itself was the likely culprit here.

Now, it's a common form, but there's plenty of other bacteria that can cause pneumonia.

concerning the cause of death, the women died from pneumonia caused by the measles virus, not Streptococcus pneumoniae. The "pneumonia" vaccine is only good for some biovars of Streptococcus pneumoniae which is a bacterial infection. Also immunocompromised patients die from pneumonia caused by Staphylococcus aureus, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Enterobacter spp, Psudeomonas spp, and many other opportunistic infections know to cause pneumonia in this patient population that are not related to Streptococcus pnuemoniae.

As a former clinical microbiologist I am always amazed at the level of scientific illiteracy in this country! If I am not mistaken you attitude concerning pharmaceutical companies is about the same for vaccines. For full disclosure I work in the pharmaceutical industry but I can say with pride that I am working on clinical trials that have the potential to arrest the progression of Alzheimer's Disease, cure Hepatitis C and prevent HPV infections and other molecules with great potential.

As you noted, it's commonly called a pneumonia vaccine rather than a more precise name. Doctors call it the pneumonia vaccine, ads for makers call it that.

but Streptococcus pneumoniae is the leading cause of bacterial pneumonia in humans. I just searched for "pneumonia vaccine" and all of the top sites on the search do discuss Streptococcus pneumoniae or pneumococcal bacteria as being a cause of pneumonia and the vaccine can prevent an infection for certain strains of the bacteria.

I still believe that it is an issue with science literacy and the inability of a large portion of the population in the US to comprehend much. When you have around 45% of the population believing dinosaurs and man walked the earth together there is not much to be said. There also seems to be a large sub-population within the US who are skeptical of science in general and vaccines in general.

Last edited Sat Jul 4, 2015, 05:13 PM - Edit history (1)

nor do those of us in other disciplines scold people for being "____ illiterates" because they don't understand concepts of our professions.

Yes, there are people who believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth with humans, but that's a very different level of science illiteracy than not understanding the inherent limits of a vaccine. Few seem to think that the "measles vaccine" protects them from German measles, for example and I wonder if that's related to how the vaccination information is presented.

I recently had to comfort an intelligent, well read relative on why her family member had pneumonia in spite of having been vaccinated. The doctor's explanation that it wasn't caused by a pneumococcal bacteria was a revelation to her. Now she was under a great deal of stress but it's what made me start think about vaccination education and whether we're doing it wrong.

we should know concerning science, or for that matter anything that affects our daily life. If someone don't have the basic information of a high school graduate and then base their beliefs on myth or misinformation the bad is not on me but on them. What I find annoying is to talk to someone with an opinion on climate change, vaccines or whatever topic and they can't even talk about concepts that they should have been taught at the high school level or learned on their own because the basic information has changed since they graduated. That to me is willful ignorance and not acceptable.

I don't think we are doing vaccination education incorrectly overall but there probably can be some tweaks around the edges. The major problem I see is there is so much misinformation concerning vaccinations by the likes of Robert Kennedy, Jr. and others. We can also put some blame on our society. There seems to be large segment of the population who don't care to know because it is easier to be told what to think.

But without AIDS, 99.999% of people would shrug off the infections that caused their mortality.

So, I guess then, by the logic you are using AIDS/HIV is harmless.

That makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying, "It wasn't the fall that killed him. It was the pavement."

you can get pneumonia without getting measles or the flu. Hello?

They say I have immunity from the diseases themselves, not the vaccinations. Maybe the FLU is another subject, but that I am sure 50% of people have differing opinions.

At any rate they also say I have waning immunity (those childhood diseases too?) just because of my age, and need protection. Babies and Frail Elderly. So get your vaccinations and protect ME?

Maybe I should change my screen name from Hockey Mom to now Hockey Grandma. A lot of people seem to think I am a young mother, especially on the subject of vaccinations. Bernie is only a few years older than me.

Many viruses can cause pneumonia. The measles virus is one. The flu virus is another. There are many others.

Many bacteria can cause pneumonia. One bacteria is covered by the vaccine you cite. There are many others.

Many fungi can cause pneumonia.

Even a few parasites can cause pneumonia.

Each cause requires a different treatment. The measles vaccine will prevent pneumonia caused by measles. A flu vaccine will prevent pneumonia caused by the flu viruses in that vaccine. The vaccine you cite will prevent pneumonia caused by one species of bacteria.

you need to be vaccinated for measles? Better tell the CDC that everyone born before 1957 needs measles vaccinations too. They are WRONG that the diseases gives natural immunity.

Wow.

and a bacterial disease. And fungi. And parasites.

And keep ignoring the dead woman.

Read the footnotes next to MMR, and if you want another one, click on Varcilla also.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/adult.html

I was born quite a few years before 1957 and had measles, mumps, german measles (Rubella to you) myself. Chicken pox? Born before 1980? I have a child born before then. Yes, I had chicken pox also.

Do you think the CDC is wrong here? You want all Seniors to get vaccinated to these diseases they had. I guess you think the concept of natural immunity is more junk science too?

Are you really that terrified? Better stay away then from all the Grandpas and Grandmas walking around unvaccinted spreading these diseases. lol Forget the Flu shots, which don't even work.

lol


lol


You people have blood on your hands, and all you can do is

lol

But I was vaccinated for smallpox. I did have measles when I was a young child and chicken pox when I was about 12. My son got mumps when he was 5 years old and the doctor gave me a vaccine so that I wouldn't get the disease.

7 months when I got chicken pox. Have no idea who I got it from being an only child. Even my cousins weren't born yet. Obviously, from not my parents, aunts, uncles, grandma, or great-grandma.

I remember my Mom saying to other Mom's that she was very happy that I had all those diseases under 2 and be done with them.

Because of this young age, I was around a lot of other kids growing up who had both. Mumps? It was a worry even then for older boys and adult men to get mumps; not as much for females.

Totally different world back then. I would say it was totally different world even when my own kids were growing up in comparison today.

Last edited Fri Jul 3, 2015, 01:50 AM - Edit history (1)

You probably don't need an MMR. But you do need other vaccinations. I'm really not sure why you are being so deliberately obtuse on this.

One dead woman not enough? Need to harp over and over about measles when I'm talking about a host of diseases that cause pneumonia because.....?

Those 2 vaccinations for "pneumonia" strains are they given to prevent the spread of an infectious diseases (Herd Immunity). or purely for the individual like the tetanus vaccination?

In many ways similar to the Zoster vaccination also. That one is more for the individual for their own "pain and suffering" because shingles is not contagious. Yes, I know they say (to sell more vaccinations) that it can cause chicken pox in the un vaccinated. However, that is not exactly true. Two different doctors told both my husband and my 33 year old SIL, who was too young to get that vaccination, that the rash is only contagious when oozing and an un vaccinated person can only catch chicken pox if they come into direct contact with the rash. My SIL's doctor just said for him to keep his shirt on while holding his newborn. Obviously, my husband wore a shirt to work.

Tetanus and Streptococcus pneumoniae are bacteria. They can live in the environment by themselves, and do not need humans (or another creature) to replicate. As a result, you can't get the kind of herd immunity you can get against viruses like measles or smallpox. We will never wipe them out.

The way you get some pseudo-herd immunity against Streptococcus pneumoniae is you are not coughing out millions of bacteria, so you are not spraying the bacteria everywhere you go, infecting others.

It's a similar concept with Tetanus, but that's harder to spread since you don't cough/sneeze it out.

You have basically explained why there has been such an increase in shingles. No exposure to chicken pox virus to give a "booster" to people who already had it. This is even more true and explains why younger adults, who had chicken pox, are getting shingles in larger numbers.

Growing up, and as a young adult, there weren't older people with shingles because that was before the chicken pox vaccine. Older people were constantly being "boosted" by being exposed to their children and grandchildren who had chicken pox.

One vaccine has created the need for another vaccine.

chickenpox vaccine and shingles. By the way shingles has always been a problem in older adults well before the vaccines came out. Shingles is a latent form of chickenpox. If someone has not been exposed to chickenpox or vaccinated against it and is exposed to someone with shingles the person who had not previously been exposed will have a high probability of coming down with chickenpox since it is so contagious. Chickenpox is in the herpes family of viruses.

There are killed virus vaccines and attenuated virus vaccines for chickenpox. People who are immunocompromised will receive the killed virus vaccine but immunity is not as long lasting, therefore, periodic boosters are required. Those who are not immunocompromided will receive the the attenuated virus vaccine which gives a longer immune response. If you have a good immune response to the attenuated virus vaccine it will prevent chickenpox. If you don't get chickenpox you won't get shingles.

It's astounding that in the 21st century, people actually buy into such rubbish. I blame the mainstream media for empowering such uninformed people, and getting so many other people to believe in that stuff.

In any case, may this poor woman RIP.

Do you have proof that she caught it from an "anti-vaxxer"?

Sometimes vaccinations are ineffective. For example,

http://www.edwardjennersociety.org/wp-content/uploads/The-re-emergence-of-measles1.pdf

Also,

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/04/unvaccinated-people-measles/22864869/

People who have been vaccinated can still catch and spread the disease. On the other hand, people who don't have the disease symptoms cannot act as carriers.

nearly as widely as it did.

You have been and continue to be completely wrong about this issue.

And she wasn't allowed to attend classes until she'd had the MMR vaccine.

if you wanted to send your child to the school. I don't know about today.

Guess her vaccination didn't work.
http://www.aol.com/article/2015/07/03/washington-womans-measles-death-is-first-in-us-since-2003/21204838/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl3%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D-675930822

How many of YOU are walking around with MMR vaccines that aren't working? Did SHE come into contact with another person whose MRR vaccination did not work? Where was she from? Where did she travel to? Who did she come in contact with? Noting from the reports says this.

Do not allow US citizens to travel abroad,even if they are vaccinated. It may not work, and they might bring back contagious diseases to OTHER (vaccinated) immune compromised adults? Same for even vaccinated travellers from overseas.

Maybe all you vaccinated people need to get blood tithers to MAKE SURE your vaccination are working?

The ONLY way to know for sure is with BLOOD TITHERS, not vaccinations. Mr. Smith, fully vaccinated, goes on a business trip overseas. He THINKS that he is up to date on his vaccinations. However, suppose he is someone for whom vaccinations do not work? Perhaps, he is even a Senior and hasn't been vaccinated since childhood. He goes to say Germany (lot of measles cases) for a Convention, stays in hotels, eats in restaurants, does a few tourist rounds. Comes back to the USA, but shows no outward signs of being sick until later. He comes into contract with another "immune compromised" person, and they both get same contagious disease.

Your solution for this is to force vaccinations on CHILDREN? Maybe instead of forced vaccinations, you should force Blood Tithers on everyone, including the vaccinated, and especially for those getting on planes and travelling overseas? Same for foreign tourists? Blood tests at Customs? You simply cannot KNOW who these vaccinations will not work for, or have waned.

Example. Years ago doctors used to routinely do blood tithers on pregnant women to test immunity to diseases, not AUTOMATICALLY vaccinate. Too much trouble today. Just give a vaccine.

You know what? I would prefer to roll up my sleeve and have a blood test done to PROVE immunity than to automatically have a damned vaccination.

I get the feeling though that for far too many people even that would not satisfy them. If I had to this, YOU do too.

ONLY people being treated for Cancer, Aids, etc., are immunocompromised? Steroids.


http://www.mayoclinic.org/steroids/art-20045692

Weigh the benefits and risk of taking these? Steroids are given to treat skin conditions, like Lupus, but also for rashes (hives) of an unknown nature.

So what?

which if they were vaccinated, they would not have immunity from their vaccinations. Both the vaccinated Washington woman and the vaccinated NYC woman dubbed "Measles Mary" never got the measles rash. Reported that Mary, NYC theater employee, traveled to the Philippines, and walked around for NYC for 2 weeks before she got sick enough to go to the ER. Did she infect immune compromised people, not just unvaccinated people? Vaccinate 100% children in the US is going to stop this from ever happening like with the Washington woman, and Measles Mary.

Maybe you need to stop all travel into and out of the USA to protect Herd Immunity? Show their vaccinations papers? Maybe better to have blood tests done at customs for people like vaccinated Mary.

Does everyone who takes steroids know that they are immune compromised and that vaccinations they did have aren't giving them immunity?

When I was given steroids for my skin condition, no doctor ever told me that they would suppress my immune system. Fortunately, I stopped taking them after a bad reaction.

The point that I am trying to make is that there is NO SOLUTION that will prevent anyone from EVER from getting measles. Screaming anti-vax parents, when it was not the cause in either of these cases.

Our media simply like to promote FEAR, and a simple scapegoat as anti-vaxer parents.

the poster you are exacerbated with is an anti-vaxer. There is nothing you can say that will help. She won't respond to my posts because I work in the pharmaceutical industry and we all know that anyone who works in pharma is evil, etc...

The object is to try to correct the misinformation they are spewing, at least others who are reading the threads will get a better understanding of the issue at hand.

Well, you people, I AM ELDERLY. I do not read either anti or pro vaccination sites. It really is not my issue. I only want my freedom to choose NO MEDICAL TREATMENT. I am not going to take vaccinations, or take scripts, testings, physicals, etc., because other people think that everyone must do that. I believe in CHOICE in the right to refuse ANY medical treatment, including vaccinations, and a SENIOR one at that.

As an uninsured person before the ACA was enacted, I would have been extremely ANGRY if I did not age into Medicare at the right time. I did not have, nor did I WANT, health insurance OR medical care. Two years since then, I have not used it, whether for FREE VACCINATIONS. FREE PHYSICALS, or FREE PREVENTITIVES. Do you get it? I want medicine to go away. I want CHOICE. If some young anti-vaxxer spreads a disease, and kills ME, I am fine with that. Their choice, and mine.

Anti-Vaxxer? HA. That is only the tip of the iceberg with me. Fit your PRECONCEIVE PROFILE of an "Anti-Vaxxer? I am Anti Medicine, period, and have been for decades.

While I am a Democrat and agree with the majority of the issues, on Medical Care, including vaccinations, I will disagree.

Title One back in 2010. Many of the student population had family in Mexico and Haiti, and they and relatives came back and forth to the US. Florida had and still does have a religious exemption to vaccinations. We were noticed that 3 students (siblings) had measles. The official notice to parents and staff said that if you want or need boosters to get them. Nothing about mandatory vaccinations for anyone. I did not know who these kids were because of HIPPA. I did know there were unvaccinated kids in the classroom I was in. I am sure there were other unvaccinated kids in the rest of the school.

What happened? Nothing. The school was not shut down and disinfected. The unvaccinated kids were not sent home from school.
School life just went on. Nobody else in that school caught measles from these kids, whether they were vaccinated or not. We were not notified that the kids were hospitalized, or died. Time passed, so I presume they just came back to school after they got better.

Are you surprised? I guess 600+ kids and staff were just very, very LUCKY?

I didn't know you were more radical than the antivaxers. Sorry to have wasted your time since you obviously can't have a rational discussion when it comes to vaccines and medicine.

That said there is not need to respond to this post. I am glad to block you that way I don't have to read your nonsense.

Being immunocompromised means it doesn't matter if she was vaccinated. Her immune system was not working properly.

Instead, someone who does have a functional immune system did not get vaccinated, and sprayed the measles virus all over the environment. Unfortunately, the woman in the OP picked some of that up. And she died.

Titers would reveal that she was immunocompromised. Boy, that would be a stunning revelation.

Btw, a tithe is what you pay to a church.

The vaccinations do not work 100% of the time for a small number of people. Are the people themselves aware of it? They get on a plane and go to a foreign country which doesn't have Herd Immunity. They catch measles and bring it back to OTHER unsuspecting vaccinated people. Two of the Disney employees were vaccinated. Guess it didn't work for them? Did they know it wouldn't? Did they know if any of the people at the park had just come from other countries carrying back a disease for which their vaccination would not work? Do you wish to ADDRESS this?

I may not "know the science", but you are living in a Utopia, and science is going to solve all the problems in the world. USA does not have closed borders, nor can they mandate vaccinations in other countries.

Do YOU get it? I am sure you don't. Keep screaming anti-vaxxers. You will not win any friends, or persuade anyone., with that attitude. THAT is "my" problem with science. Attitude of the scientists, not the science per se.

which means that in spite of her prior vaccinations she was vulnerable to the disease.

but even with 100%, there will always be cases and perhaps small pockets of disease due to travel, immunocompromised status, and the fact that no vaccine is 100% effective forever.

this one case is not the one we should be going apeshit about. it is the lack of affordable vaccines for children in developing countries that needs more attention.

for seeing the forest and not just the trees, as in one case and one death. "If we can just prevent one death" mindset is absurd. Medicine will never be able to prevent just one death, from anything. Too many factors beyond their control.

Your comment about vaccinating poor children in foreign countries who cannot afford or get them is commendable. Far different from the US where people can afford and get them, but may not want them.

do so by choice, and as you point out, no disease will be a zero case rate. i think the discord between the "vaccinate against everything possible" crowd and the choice/no vax crowd has become toxic. to the point where the sides almost can't hear the other. thx for engaging in peaceful conversation!