https://www.popularresistance.org/greece-europes-oligarch-bankers-want-to-kill-the-left-in-europe/

Greece’s confrontation with the euro overlords will shape resistance to austerity – and the future of the whole European Union

It’s now clear that Germany and Europe’s powers that be don’t just want the Greek government to bend the knee. They want regime change. Not by military force, of course – this operation is being directed from Berlin and Brussels, rather than Washington.

But that the German chancellor Angela Merkel and the troika of Greece’s European and International Monetary Fund creditors are out to remove the elected government in Athens now seems beyond serious doubt. Everything they have done in recent weeks in relation to the leftist Syriza administraton, elected to turn the tide of austerity, appears designed to divide or discredit Alexis Tsipras’s government.

Water boarding. What the bankers are doing to the Greek people is immoral.

I stand in Solidarity with the people of Greece. They are our brothers and sisters.

Greece's own-goal mismanagement. Enough they cry - we will NOT go on digging Greece out of their own shit. We've made sacrifices; they can too.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0430/Greek-island-of-the-blind-More-like-island-of-welfare-cheats



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/9233670/Greece-tries-to-crack-down-on-fraud-as-mayor-of-Zakynthos-faces-revolt.html



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/24/greece-collecting-revenue-tax-evasion

At some point it will be obvious to anyone that it's the bankers and their profits against the needs of the people. Maybe then there will be a REAL Eurozone entity, the Socialist States of Europe.

And pointing out that these other countries are pissed at Greece for complaining and trying to stand up to the terrorism, is just re-in forcing right-wing talking points. Always blame the poor for their poverty, and the obvious economic violence expressed against them.

when admitted to the Eurozone and instead ofusing the capital to develop the economy, they partied with increased salaries and benefits. Now that the chickens have come home to roost, the Europeans are the bad guys.

Indeed, "the chickens have come home to roost...".

Its all Goldman Sachs fault, apparently

snip


The second reason cited was Greece's alleged extravagance and excessive deficits. But the principal causes of the crisis in Greece and other states on the eurozone's periphery were their large and increasing current account deficits, their loss of competitiveness and, more crucially, the different levels of development of the north and the south – rather than the administrative incompetence of their leaders. The south buys high-quality, hi-tech industrial products from the north. The north buys far fewer goods from the south.







http://www.theguardian.com/global/2012/apr/26/greece-europe-north-south-divide

Macroeconomics makes my brain hurt. I'm sure a lot of rich people stand to lose a few millions of play-money, but I have a suspicion that, as usual, it is poor Joe (or Nick) who is going to suffer when he can't afford a loaf of bread.

-- Mal

is doing nothing to advance Greece's cause with its European partners.

I have to point out I'm far from best-informed about this problem, but whenever a spokesman makes noise like that, I assume he's playing to a certain audience. In this case, accusing the rest of Europe of terrorism might be a way to bolster the ruling party in Greece.

-- Mal

quagmire. GREECE IS BROKE! FLAT BROKE!

The austerity being proposed by those "very finance ministers" is only going put them in a bigger hole.

So they are "BROKE" and they should simply cut bait with the local loan sharks. It is only an arm and a leg. It is their fault after all (always blame the poor for their poverty).

They are "BROKE", so what choice do they have? Sounds like disaster capitalism, at its "best".

The entire EU is massively printing money and using it to stabilize the currency and the other countries. Greece was not allowed to use it.
In other words, if they had equal access and reasonable compromise the trioka knows that what Greece wants to do might actually work.

The trioka has actually been trying to sabotage any alternative theory or effort. They want it there way or none. Trouble is, it is actually the debt interest that is killing the greek economy.

So, banks right now can get much lower interest loans, several countries actually have negative interest rates for corporate borrowers. If they can do that they can at least drop the interest for a while and spread payments out a bit, not much different than what happens in bankruptcy court. But all those options were not offered, because this is really about power and control.

money than it takes in that they bankrupted themselves?

politicians got them into loans they can't pay. Now the World bank via the European Union is trying to force them to pay and by hitting the people directly. This is the country that a few years ago, the banks seized everyone in the countries bank accounts and tried to take the money from the people directly. I should note that it didn't work because of public out cry and the place was descending into a chaos that would have had the people overthrow the government. They got rid of their corrupt politicians fast - by vote. Smart people. Pay attention to Greece, what's happening there IS going to happen to other countries (the phillopeans at the moment is having the same issue.) But it will happen to more and it could happen to us eventually.

The Greek government paid Goldman Sachs to help them disguise their debt load from lenders. Blaming this on "banksters" is pretty ridiculous.

If I pay you to kill someone and you do the job, you are not exempt from prosecution yourself. And is your culpability in that case increased if you solicit the job?

-- Mal

status in NO way complied with the parameters required for accession.

'Goldman Sachs helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules. At some point the so-called cross currency swaps will mature, and swell the country's already bloated deficit.'

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html

... the question would seem to be one of either making the Greek people pay for the misdeeds of criminals, or making all of Europe's people pay. The fat-cat criminals who created the mess can continue to feed off the chaos. In such a situation, no answer can approach justice that doesn't punish those who created the problem. Good luck with that, eh?

-- Mal

Last edited Sat Jul 4, 2015, 04:50 PM - Edit history (1)

If all Europe suffers, would that make them less tolerant of criminals? Or just hate Greece more? If Greece suffers, will the rest of Europe ignore what caused the crisis, until the next one?

Given the reaction in the US to the plundering of the bankers, it would appear that the status will remain quo. Too bad Iceland won't let you immigrate unless you have relatives there.

-- Mal

At the end of the tunnel:
- Greece would already have agreed
- the rest of the EU would be fine and maybe better off without the threat of Grexit
- and the creditors behind it all (mostly American at this point apparently) would have to eat it.

That is all this is really about. The vultures want their ten thousand percent return on "investment".

To simply say that "the fat-cat criminals" will get away with it is simply to re-in force what they would like you to believe. After all if it is inevitable, why try to do anything.

Do not fall into this trap.

in the government?

Why should the Greek people have to pay for the lies and cheating of a few in their government?

Oh, the lucky people in a country with honest leadership.

Where are they?

What country has such an honest leadership at this time?

I don't know what country you are in, but I certainly envy anyone who can say they live in a country with truly honest leadership. I wonder where they are. Iceland maybe. But other than that, where?

Canada maybe?

I like Germany and France and all the European countries, but Greece is not alone with regard to corruption in high places.

But, Greece has turned tax evasion and benefits fraud into a high art form.

They've been warned and chided and upbraided again and again--over decades--but have never found the political will to clean house.

Tax evasion and fraud in all forms are endemic to Greek society. They've never found the will to clean house since the days of the colonels.

They only squeaked into the EU, and later the Euro-zone, by making pledges and promises for future reform. Never happened.

Don't get me wrong, I adore Greece and her people. But, for the nation that invented democracy, she's made some disastrous 'democratic' choices and is still corrupt at the core.

The whole country runs on baksheesh and mutual back-scratching. Want a required administrative document? Need an official's signature, etc. etc. Show me the money...

I've seen it with my own eyes.

The Corporate Media, the CIA and other transglobal shills s/elect corrupt rightwing leaders to indebt the country up to its ears, with loan money that ordinary people never see, that is siphoned to the top and out of the country, and terrible loan provisions including provisions to enable transglobal corporate takeover of public services and resources, and to ravage both. This was done to one country after another in Latin America, and the only word for it is "terrorism." I was going to modify this to "economic terrorism" but, in Latin America, it was backed up by the spread of U.S. military bases throughout the region, and U.S. training of LatAm militaries in tactics of bloody repression, and a lot of bloody repression. Many South American countries rebelled, for the very reason that the IMF/World Bank had turned their countries into poverty-stricken basketcases.

The Greeks' plight is at the very least "economic terrorism."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1136362

Go tell that to the Slovakians, Finns, Baltic States, etc. who are fed up to the teeth with
Greece's own-goal mismanagement. Enough they cry - we will NOT go on digging Greece out of their own shit. We've made sacrifices; they can too.

I wonder what people who say that think has been happening in Greece for the past five years.

Austerity has been wreaking havoc there.

structural weaknesses.

Greeks have their own politicians to blame in part, not their European partners.

Politicians complicit with the banks, and the bankers, made millions of dollars selling the Greek people down the river. You need to do some homework before blaming the Greek people for their countries exploitation by bankers and European Union ministers who aim to destroy democracy and republican government for their own selfish greed. Neoliberal economics are ravaging the West, and yes, their means are synonymous with financial terrorism!

Their structural problems have been decades in the making.

You can find ways to blame the priorities of the Greek people. Otherwise, they are just people trying to live their lives will some aspirations and dignity. IMHO

What do you know about the Greek Junta that was finally abolished in 1973-74?

Structural problems?

The US has serious structural problems too.

Let's not be so tough with others who suffer from a succession of corrupt governments.

The Abramoff scandal is not so far past.

We have a lot of corruption in this country.

Think about the TPP and other negotiations going on now behind our backs. Who knows what our government is up to? If so much of it is secret in a so-called democracy, we could be in deep trouble. Who knows?

<outrage>...Yada Yada Yada...Blame the victim...Yada Yada Yada...set the victims against each other...Yada Yada Yada.

What happens in another 10 yrs when they're in the same situation? Its not different than giving irresponsible kids more and more money. They need to change their behavior.

Enough of the RW TP.

There is a country of 15 million people here. They did not do this. It was an economic hit job.

They have changed their govt, throwing out a lot of foreign anointed bad apples. They are more than ready to create something great.

It is time to vote NO, stand behind their choice of govt, and go it on their own. Isn't that the sign of readiness?

Who do you think got the banks involved to hide their problems? The Greek govt. So let them vote no. Let them keep offering retirement at barely over 50 yrs old. Keep the social programs running full speed.
Let them figure out how to pay for it. Super tax on the rich? Go ahead and try it. France already proved you dont get a lot of money from that. Double the tax on businesses? Have at it. Thats been tried elsewhere too. And failed.
We already know how the story plays out, Venezuela is a shining example of failure.

It is also vulture capitalism and must be stood up to.

Btw, the Greek govt is not voting on this, OK. It is the people.

Your original point was that the Greeks are bing children and cannot be considered "responsible". Of course, you dropped that when I pointed out that a new leftist govt, a willingness to stand up to the Troika, and a NO vote shows exactly the opposite, now you flip and bring up more RW TP.

Blaming them for having social programs...Yada Yada Yada...can't tax the rich and would not do anything anyway...Yada Yada Yada...they have to "pay it back."

And then, the clincher: "Venezuela." Slam dunk man!!!

Almost as good as "Benghazi", huh?

RW TP.

Greece has been irresponsible for 30 yrs. Spending too much, buying govt jobs for friends of both parties, lying about their debt, not collecting taxes owed, etc etc.
When they entered the EU, they lied about their situation in order to get accepted. Its all come home to roost now. Sad but true
And everything I said IS true. You not liking it doesnt change it.
If the right wing is saying it, i dont give a shit. If they told me NOT to jump off a cliff, I wouldnt jump just to spite them.

You sending some canned goods to Greece yet?

God forbid Greece economy completely fail (her people who will suffer greatly).

Any quick solutions until a compromise can be determined?

until a painful and partial solution can be found.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017275705

Last edited Sun Jul 5, 2015, 04:13 AM - Edit history (1)

The Digital Demagogue



By David Auerbach - July 2 2015

The Greek prime minister’s faceoff with Europe is something new: a bold, imperfect, high-velocity form of mass democracy made possible by the Internet.... Whether Tsipras is a bold contrarian or a foolish nihilist, his political approach heralds a new kind of digital democracy, one that’s as scary as it is revolutionary...

Tsipras and Syriza have made use of the Internet to circumvent media intermediaries and exhort their supporters in far more direct ways than one might expect from a ruling party. Whether putting out daily YouTube videos or posting the creditors’ austerity demands online, Tsipras has aggressively pushed the impression that it is not just him but the Greek people themselves who are negotiating with the creditors. He has drawn on Twitter to bid for national and international support: “Our people have remained calm in face of blackmail,” he tweeted Monday. “Outside attempts to sway them only strengthens their resolve.” That fire-breathing didn’t let up this week even as he appeared to flinch, telling creditors that he is open to accepting a version of their terms: “After the #referendum was announced, better proposals were received- especially in regards to restructuring the debt,” he tweeted with a note of self-congratulation. Even if Tsipras is exaggerating in order to save face, it reveals Tsipras’ strategy of bolstering his negotiating position by invoking the weight of the Greek people, as well as appealing to international supporters.

The stakes are unprecedentedly high for both Greece and the EU as a whole. Wolfgang Münchau wrote in the Financial Times that the referendum risks showing that “a monetary union without political union can only exist in violation of basic principles of democracy.” Tsipras is appealing to that fundamental power asymmetry here: Greece owes national debts, yet it does not autonomously control its currency, leaving its monetary policy in large part in the hands of Europe’s leaders. Tsipras’ objection is that Greece should not be forced to adopt further austerity measures when it has already been running a surplus, but on account of the euro, it cannot directly control its own monetary policy, through which it could devalue its currency to spur exports and growth. Imagine if, in the U.S. the Federal Reserve were really as unaccountable as conspiracy theorists think it is. It’s like that...

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/07/greece_referendum_the_standoff_couldn_t_have_happened_without_the_internet.single.html

I think what you linked will take me a while to read. This link is a story that seems like a fluff piece but really isn't. Reading the last paragraph I posted brings up important questions.

There is a lot more there. I'll get to reading the links you made through the thread, but can't say I understand the meanings to people on the ground in Europe. They pay more in taxes taken from them for their work and resent the more lax policies that have been in Greece for years.

Greece is a volatile nation that is in a crucial area of Europe and been invaded more times than one can count. The simple answer was 'let them go and join with Putin's economic union.'

But I'm betting the rest of Europe is also feeling 'terrorized' by the thouht of an even more unstable Greece with ISIS blustering at them, killing people through stochastic terrorism, and ISIS refugees on their doorstep. There is no infinite wealth nor are there infinite 'resources.'

I've read the Greeks were already making concessions to Putin and their own oligarchs. I don't hold socialism or faux socialism in the regard I once had when they are now playing footsie with oligarchs under the table and out of sight like Putin, making him more wealthy than the Koch brothers. I regard a lot, from Yanis and any other source, a diversion from real wealth being transferred.

People seem so eager for a hero to take care of them, and complain when they don't give them all they wanted. That's magical thinking. A faith based belief on the 'evil' others with more stuff that 'are why my life sucks.' Yeah, there are some evil rich fuks.

But are regular folks in Europe who are angry about Greece rich? I really doubt that.

The people have to work with each other, some are telling us they will. Whether they will or not, or if they align themselves with a rich patron to fleece others, and history has shown some certainly will, is an unknown thing. Then above it all, there is climate change. The pressure is not going to let up.

It appears other Europeans - you are not the only one, others have, for several years now - say they were being taken advantage of by Greece. There will be bad feelings.

But I thought this might be an interesting add to your thread. The picture isn't so clear from this side of the Atlantic, we just don't know how you guys really live.

as you pointed out, the problem is corruption in government, not necessarily evil perpetrated by the Greek people, yet the ordinary people have to pay for the mistakes made.

Here is a video explaining how the debt cycle began.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017275705

Greece is a strategically important country that has been, as you point out, invaded from every direction over and over. It is vulnerable. It is the Southern flank for Central Europe. To allow it to fail would be a terrible mistake that North Europeans in my view cannot afford. In fact, we can't afford it either.

A DUer responded to one of my posts with the response that Greece is not so important now because wars are waged with planes, etc. But that is not altogether true. If planes could defeat massive or even not so massive invasions of determined people, ISIS would no longer exist.

Dealing with the Greek crisis will take patience, compassion and cooperation. The Troika has demonstrated very little of any of those qualities and that will come back to hurt them.

We too have far too much corruption in our government. Our wealthiest including our wealthiest corporations are not paying their share of the wealth they have gained thanks to increased productivity and relatively low wages in recent years. We have a huge balance of payments deficit. And Bush fought two wars that he did not pay for. We should be careful how we talk about Greece.

As I said in a post below, Ask not for whom the bell tolls, It tolls for thee.

We Americans need to remember that as we think of Greece.

This is especially true today, Independence Day.

What does our Independence rely on? Our currency among other things.

the full force of our Air Force capability is NOT being brought down upon ISIS. Not even close. Too many stories out there of pilots not being allowed, for whatever reason, to take out legitimate targets. Planes coming back to base with all their ordinance still on board, etc. The number of daily strikes is tiny compared to what it SHOULD be if we really wanted to rattle them into oblivion.
Air power alone ran the Serbs out of Kosovo, because it was relentless. Of course, the Serbs arent insane like ISIS is, but the right offensive would definitely hurt their recruiting

and debate:

This moment looks to be truth or dare time and may prove to be the point of no return. Either the Euro goes forward to greater political integration and stability or it slides into desintegration.

The troika's economic bullying is out of hand.

manages to stand up to the bullying, many others will decide to tell the EU to fuck off. Iceland left it in a hurry after joining it, managed to put their bankers in jail and had a tremendous surge in their economy. England has mouthed talk of leaving, but they won't. The ones who might, however, will shake some foundations. Denmark is far from happy from the result of joining the EU, and they are NOT in financial calamity.

The fear is that if those nations that aren't exactly pleased with being in the EU see a state stand up to them, many of said states that are actually helping to carry the Euro, will, in essence, tell Germany, the ECB and the coven of financial illusionists to go piss up a wet rope.

That's the undercurrent of this whole situation. They are playing chicken with people's lives, because they know that if Greece (and others) withstand the pressure against austerity, and in many cases where it isn't warranted, their ship is sunk.

tell the EU to stop lending them money?

What happens the morning after?

And the world is going to see the aftermath of that.

Many people are watching - including countries that keep the Euro afloat and are thinking twice now.

P.S. Tiny Iceland couldn't survive without being part of the EU. Except they thrived.

in a number of posts you've alluded to Iceland and its relationship to the EU and its economic condition.

Iceland has never been a member of the EU or the Eurozone currency. it has close economic ties to the EU, but it has never been a member. it has therefore never left the EU, and certainly never left the single currency. it also never had a sovereign debt problem, very much unlike Greece.

of the world should be giving real assistance to Greece, not just letting it swing from a rope.

Austerity has not worked in Greece. The IMF knew it wouldn't work in the first place.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017275705

That video explains how Greece got into the situation it is in. Goldman Sachs, Carlos Sim, hedge funds, the IMF, bad guys all played a role as did a corrupt and foolish Greek government.

Remember how Bush II fought a war on the American credit card? Remember that huge balance of payment deficit we have? Have you noticed the exportation of good jobs and the importation of lousy products?

Ask not for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee, America.

Before we look at the speck in Greece's eye, we need to remove the log from the American eye.

After WWII, the US forgave German debts and allowed that country in spite of its terrible NAZI past to pay its debts slowly. Now Germany and France have no mercy on the countries to their South, countries including Greece that are vital to their safety and security.

Some big mistakes are being made. We shall see how the Greek people vote, but I suspect that part of the accusation of terrorism is due to the perception that perhaps the IMF and other creditors are trying to defeat democratic government in Greecce.

and petty squabbling among the IMF, ECB and the influence of hedge fund operators is why it did. Which also means it is making a point by deciding to let people starve. When that becomes the highlight of your career and you call that "standing strong", you are in league with bad actors and become a bad actor.

So, the Greek people want the Euro deal? So much confusion in here. But Nai is Yes. Oxi is No.

And this means the PM will step down. Because instead of getting a plebiscite, he got the finger from his own people.

Am I reading this correctly now?

TIA.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141136978#post50

A lot of speculation on the vote, but that seemed to be the answer but no one answered.
Since you are in the region, I hope you have the facts.

There was some confusion over the meaning of the words Nai and Oxi. Nai meaning Yes and Oxi meaning No. Some thought the Nai was like the English Nay, thus No.

It appears the referendum was not to reject the offer, but to accept and the Yeas won. I'd like to know what happened.

I also found it strange after such harsh language over the year that the Greek government still wanted to stay in the Euro. If I am not mistaken, leaving all the mud slinging aside, they still have something they want from the other countries in the EU.

I know that Euro is the currency and EU is the name of the union but they seem to be being used interchangeably?