Yeah, I'm hip, it wasn't binding. But if this is political theatre, I want the money I spent on my ticket back.

-- Mal

When those representing the average people, usually more left of center, thinks that the will of the population will actually have some kind of bargaining effect on the oligarchy.

the question was always how much debt forgiveness greece could extract out of the creditors (and to a lesser extent, exactly how much greece would have to accept in terms of belt-tightening).

the referendum likely is helping tsipras in this regard, because the troika doesn't really want greece to leave the eurozone, they really get screwed in that case.

today, though there is some flexibility if the plan submission is a day or two later.

I don't see any other source reporting this, including BBC or Bloomberg, and both those news sources are right on top of this

I will wait for a confirmation

But IMO The Guardian is one of the top newspapers in the world. They and their journalists have won multiple press awards.

http://www.theguardian.com/gnm-press-office/awards

He bluffed, they called him, and he really has nothing. It's going to be very rough on the Greeks.

...and offer much, much more. They didn't. But the thing sbout a bluff is it loses its power if your opponent doesn't believe it at least a little.

query whether that would have needed to be addressed anyways.

but, this seems to be as bad or worse than the original proposal

certainly not worth the damage done to the economy over the past 10 days

because the people are already tired of austerity and if SYRIZA can't end it, the next choice will be the fascists. Of course the fascists will be more welcomed by the EU capitalists, so maybe they will be better. We'll see because that's what's coming next.

humanitarian aid package to soften the blow of Greece's bad choices.

Unless Syriza can find a Unicorn that craps Euros, there is no easy way out of this for them.

The referendum was nonsense. I expect the Greek people are going to be very very pissed.

She is of Greek parentage and is a strong Greek Orthodox Church member. She said that the Greeks are just pre-occupied with money and implied that their own selfishness was just the way they are. I was a bit shocked that she had such a strong negative opinion for her own people. And she's no Republican either. Just down on her own heritage.

alerts for daring to say that the government, NOT the people themselves, was a profligate spender.

Selfish? Be careful, the alert brigade may be along soon.

I don't know enough about these situations to even have an opinion.

But thanks for giving me a heads up...things can get a bit weird around here...

I agree it's gotten bad. I finally had to break down and start an Ignore list. There comes a point...

I thought Ignore was for sissies who couldn't take a few hits. I was wrong as it has developed. There is a new strain in the biosphere here. I said to myself "you wouldn't tolerate someone like this in your real life so why do you do it here?"

You don't want the toxins to get too near you...take care and please consider my recommendation...

Excellent observation.

On the other had, when things just get too toxic, I generally just turn off the computer and stay away for 24 hours, until the noxious fumes have dissipated.

We'll see as the primary season advances. I may have to click that 'ignore' button for the first time.

But I like DU and find new things all the time to discuss with my fellow DUers and I am retired with lots of time, so I need to have a buffer zone. And it's all good, no problems...

it's only since I've found myself with more time on my hands, that I've been able to spend more time around here.

I also find DU an excellent resource for diverse news sources and lively discussion. But, when the ideologues elbow their way in, I bow out.

how much would you say is OK?

That's my metric now. It's called standards and it's also boundaries. We have them in real life and we should have them here. End of sermon.

Give them hope with a referendum against more austerity and then succumb to it a week later? Not good, Alexis.

An expression which originated in Greece, I believe...!

there will be rioting in the streets and the government is toast.

Greece defaults and crashes out of the eurozone.

I think the government is toast no matter what.

which they presently do not.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026958269#post2

(h/t elehhhhna )

And why aren';t the Germans pressing them on this instead of demanding austerity?

part of the problem is that the Greek economy doesn't manufacture anything people outside Greece want to buy.

you say they essentially don't manufacture anything people outside of Greece want to buy, then why not create the currency for those within Greece.

How did China and Cuba survive? China had the RMB and they set it 8 to 1 against the dollar, this was before they became an economic powerhouse, and were brought into the global market place. Everything was handled locally.

In fact, before the Euro came about, all the countries had their own currencies. They still do.

Greece does produce agricultural products of all kinds of crops.

Maybe I am being naive, but why couldn't they have their own internal economy?

Their membership in and use of the euro is a major boost to their N°2 industry, tourism. They would be dying right now without tourism. Even the tiniest land-poor, poverty-striken island can now count on those euro-spending tourists to improve their lot.

Just go to the islands to see proof of the phenomenon. You get off the ferry and are immediately beseiged by householders offering you accommodation, resturateurs proposing their menu, farmers touting visits on donkey-back, etc. etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece#Tourism

Important Greek industries include tourism and shipping. With 18 million international tourists in 2013, Greece was the 7th most visited country in the European Union and 16th in the world.
...

Greece attracts more than 16 million tourists each year, thus contributing 18.2% to the nation's GDP in 2008 according to an OECD report. The same survey showed that the average tourist expenditure while in Greece was $1,073, ranking Greece 10th in the world.

The number of jobs directly or indirectly related to the tourism sector were 840,000 in 2008 and represented 19% of the country's total labor force.In 2009, Greece welcomed over 19.3 million tourists, a major increase from the 17.7 million tourists the country welcomed in 2008.

At least according to preliminary reports the agreement he submitted is essentially what he walked away from?

Hello, Rock...meet your counterpart, Hard Place.

Being stuck between them is VERY painful.

And, yes, why the hell DID he hold that very expensive and futile referendum? That's exactly what his European partners would like to know.

Because their economy is too weak. Limited manufacturing, inadequate agriculture to feed it's people. And if it defaulted, not likely to get loans to build the economy up.

It's certainly a possibility (though looking less likely after today), but as to why not:

1) Most Greeks want to remain

2) Greece is not at all prepared to do this, and it would mean incredible economic hardship for at least a few years.

They still had a pretty chronic deficit spending problem, so they had to deal with pretty regular inflation. Before things came crashing down in 2009, their GDP just about tripled in a decade, but it looks like it was an unsustainable bubble based on cheap debt, especially since so much of it seems to have gone to political patronage, pensions, etc. instead of economic/industrial development.

If they do that, it will take a while, and they are out of money NOW. Further, a new currency will devalue rapidly, and inflation will be serious. No free lunches, I'm afraid.

My own opinion is that they would end up somewhat better off out of the Eurozone, but that's just from a cocktail napkin level analysis, and they'll definitely be worse off for the next 4 or 5 years on the Neodrachma than they will with the austerity package.

can just fuck off and die?

Lovely.

which is lower than Germany's by several years.

They did take some pension cuts previously; it's hard to convince poorer Bulgarians to subsidize Greek pensions.

Merkel needs to learn very quickly that "more Europe" does not mean "more Germany". The wounds from WW2 still run deep and have not been forgotten.

The euro exists because the French did not trust a reunified Germany with a DM as a currency. Acceptance of the euro as at the very least a Franco-German currency was a prerequisite to French acceptance of German reunification in 1990.

Currently, Le Pen is leading in the polls for the 2017 French presidential election.

with her bloody internecine battles with her own father, founder of the Front National.

Front National : «La cohabitation avec Jean-Marie Le Pen devient compliquée»


Marion Maréchal-Le Pen a reconnu que «la cohabitation» avec son grand-père, Jean-Marie Le Pen, devenait compliqué.

Marion Maréchal-Le Pen a réagi ce jeudi matin à la série de «victoires» de son grand père devant la justice, assurant qu'il ne pouvait plus être président d'honneur du Front
national.

http://www.leparisien.fr/politique/front-national-la-cohabitation-avec-jean-marie-le-pen-devient-compliquee-09-07-2015-4931179.php

The French have a long and venerable history of protest 'voting and poll-answering'. When that 'second tour' comes around, they usually mobilize to keep the rabid RW at bay.

Although five more years of Hollande would be a disaster, and a "return of Sarko" wouldn't be much better (except for comedians).

As for the rest of it, most of it sounds like Fantasyland. How long have you lived in Europe, and just how much French and German do you speak? In France, most people look to Germany with envy. In Germany, most visiting Israelis are cool with anyone born after 1940, and in Germany, you find the most fervent pacifists on the continent, as today's generations are fed up with wars and being the "bad guy." A friend of my daughter's said the most evil thing the Nazis did to her (born in 1985, don't forget) was make it difficult for her to be proud of her country and feel patriotic. The euro exists because it was part of the long-term plan for European integration, whose original inspiration was making France and Germany so intertwined that they would never go to war with each other again, something De Gaulle and Adenauer accomplished rather thoroughly. And the biggest perceived obstacle to German reunification was the Soviet Union. When Gorbachev gave his blessing, it was a done deal. Germany's neighbors welcomed the economic powerhouse on their border as a source of greater sales, which definitely happened.

The banlieues would be a potential tinderbox if Le Pen became president. She would either need to get a dose of reality VERY quickly or need to increase the staff of every local fire department by a factor of three, one or the other.

Those nasty shiftless, profligate Greeks are going to have to eat their own shit for breakfast!

Another triumph for justice over mercy, and dollars over sense!

had the Minister of Awesome negotiated instead of throwing a temper tantrum.

cuts to the pensions and reduction in services might not have been as severe but it is what it is *sigh*

Sigh

It must have pained him terribly to admit that there really WASN'T a rabbit in his hat, and that zero plus zero adds up to zero.

But like the Will McAvoy character said in the first newsroom episode, the first step in solving a problem is realizing you have one. I'm sure the EU will be more receptive to a Greece begging for help than one painting a Hitler mustache onto photos of Angela Merkel.

end up equaling zero, no matter how you spin it.

I sincerely feel the pain of the proud Greek people, waking up this morning to the realization that they've been had by by this slogan-spouting charlatan.

The people of Greece baffle me. If you voted yes, I can understand, if you voted no and want to grexit, I can understand but those who voted no and want euro and are now happy or satisfied or more than willing to accept this deal? What???? Every defeat for them is a victory, they feel they gained dignity and pride from what has occurred, seemingly failing to grasp, they set their economy back even more, like 1 or 2 yrs, with all these shenanigans, all the while earning the ire of the EU and making other Europeans less sympathetic to their cause, not more. But they consider this a victory?? I don't blame those who did not vote in the referendum if they recognized it as a foolish and ultimately self-defeating endeavor. Perhaps this mentality explains why Greece is such a basketcase. There is a serious disconnect from reality.

If the natural state of Greece is an economy more akin to Latvia where average pensions are 4000/yr and even with pension cuts, Greece's pensions are still 10000/yr, doesn't that mean that the EU will be forever supporting Greece? Unless Greece is not propped up and their economy is allowed to fall to its natural state. Perhaps the natural state of Greece is economically better than Latvia, but shouldn't the goal ultimately be for everything to get to that natural state. Maybe Greece can lease some islands to Germany for $350 billion like China leased Hong Kong.