at its finest. I'm breathlessly waiting for all the Chavistas to rush forward with screeds about how 'Venezuelan democracy and elections are some of the fairest in the world'.

Now you can take a breath.

How about those Saudi democratic elections?

essential to having 'fair' elections.

See Bolivia, Peru, Chile, efc., just in Latin America, for examples of how much the old guard of mix of military, financial and industrial alliances wants it's privileges back.

Egypt, Yemen, even Iceland....same thing.

Socialism is spreading everywhere, no two stories will be the same.

Just look at Greece for another topical example, populist movements are always attempted to be suppressed at first by propaganda.

saying that, since 'emerging populist democracies face resistance and are always in a struggle...' this justifies stacking the deck for elections by declaring opposition candidates ineligible to run?

Look at the cultural revolution that America is in the midst of now - some things get messy, each nation has to decide how to individually defend against the inevitable counter-revolution of the traditionl power structure still intertwined with the new government.

Socialism is the goal, the road may be imperfect, but it is the right path.

Venezuela should be supported, even guided, in this struggle by liberal Americans, and as Obama is already making gestures, I think at least he gets it.

edit: (See post # 6.)

is just 'messy' and is justified as 'a defense against the inevitble counterrevolution'. Got it

That is something liberal Americans should support.

Wow now I have heard everything.

in a period of instability now. And at times, stability kinda sucks, too. Depends on where you are on the totem pole as to whether the status quo is good or bad. I think Bachus and another are from VZ and probably have the best knowledge on what is going on there. Such as thing would be highly irregular here, but it's happened in the past, in a few different ways. And it was very violent, too. It just seems wrong to us, IDK about there. It seems very autocratic.

But Bacchus seems to have been there at some point, at least in Latin America, along maybe with MADem (it's funny, actually, every user that has been to Venezuela themselves is not a supporter of Chavismo, while everyone who does support has never stepped foot in it.) Anyway, as a Venezuelan, I can say with confidence that the Chavista regime has descended into the most corrupt and incompetent regime in Venezuela's history. Despite me being born and raised there, I still get called out as a "right-winger" or an "oligarch" for not supporting the Chavista regime (even though I consider myself very centrist, slightly leaning to the left) and usually get lumped into the "gusano" category (it means "worm" in Spanish) for living in Miami now, where I'm currently doing my university studies (things have become really dangerous back home to keep on living there, especially for the youth.) You'll notice this is actually very typical, Chavistas tend to be an extremist lot, so they tend to brand anyone who doesn't agree with their view as right-wingers or what-have-you.

Another thing you'll notice is the fact that every single supporter of Chavismo in this site eats up all the propaganda lies that the Chavista government puts out there. They literally believe all of Venezuela's problems are caused by the oligarchy, CIA, the U.S., Alvaro Uribe, etc. and that Maduro and co. are just victims of a deception that apparently all of the world's media is participating in, with the exception of hard left-leaning ones like Absence... Sorry, Axis of Logic, VTV (the Venezuelan state-run channel,) TeleSur (also financed by the Venezuelan state,) VenezuelaAnalysis, Eva Golinger (the U.S. based shill paid by the Chavista regime), and maybe RT.

under the guise of socialism.

Many in the Leninist and Trotskyist believe, or say they believe, that the party, and ONLY the party can be allowed to hold, or even seek power since the party is the political embodiment of the people.

That, of course, is bullshit.

The Bolshevik ideal of a strong-man leader is corrupting. And a centralized command economy is doomed to failure. It's like these guys haven;t paid attention to what happened in the world the last 100 years.

All the Chavistas in this forum are strong supporters of a Cuban-style one-party-rules-all government. It's funny how they say they're for democracy and are totally against any right-wing government that shows to be anti-democratic, but don't bat an eye at all when a "leftist" government is behaving undemocratically. They're hypocrites through and through. But thankfully the world is becoming more aware of the dangerous of blind ideology. Let's just hope there's something worth rescuing in Venezuela once Chavismo ends.

concept of 'Democracy'.

The Chavistas' enemies would be anything but democratic patriots. The CIA would cut them off! In any case, I've come to realise that what we call Democracy is really an Oligarchy,and that is what the Venzuelans are fighting.

On the other hand, while even a Godless socialism is better than enslavement to rapacious Oligarchs in less developed countries, such as Venezuela, it's not necessarily so in the more developed countries, as the Labour Party's swift metamorphosis into NuLab(c) [whose former leader, Blair, was said by Thatcher to be her greatest achievement], all too graphically attests. Once even atheist, left-wing 'firebrands get their foot off the bottom rungs of the career ladder, it's 'ta ta Nice to have known you.'

The truth is, that in the UK - I cant speak for other more developed countries - I'm sure the present Establishment system of crown patronage of the old-money toffs, Gore Vidal types (many of whose ancestors would have been cynical and ruthless go-getters), is infinitely preferable to an elected Upper Chamber of New Rich currently cynical and ruthless go-getters.

They've been in power for almost 16 years, and control all government institutions and most of the national production. Hardly what you'd call "emerging," and nobody buys the "socialist" brand anymore especially at this point when the majority of the PSUV leadership have made themselves multimillionaires through their positions. The people suffer while they get richer. They're the new oligarchy that's fucking up the situation. Thank God that other Lat Am countries are starting to recognize this. Did you hear about what happened to Maduro in the latest Mercosur meeting? He was royally PISSED at Dilma Rousseff for shutting him out of negotiations with Guyana regarding the territorial dispute.

My work here is done.

And respected the individual freedoms of its people and did not gradually close itself off to the rest of the world economically speaking, and it sure as hell didn't become more radical as the years went by (the Jacobins' Reign of Terror was probably the most radical regime of the Revolution.) And besides that, this is the bloody 21st century, where governments ruled by radical ideologies only hurt democratic institutions in the long run. It's amazing how you're trying to pull every stop to justify your points, even trying to compare a situation from the 18th century to one in the 21st. Keep trying, though, this is actually starting to become amusing.

Most of Europe's nations transitioned away from absolute monarchies without the bloodletting that happened in France.

If a far-right dictator like Pinochet had pulled this, (and I'm sure he did,) we'd be blasting away at him big time.

But, since Maduro calls himself a "socialist," well, "Oh, that's different!"

He hasn't done anything illegal, so he does not deserve to be barred. In a true democracy, you do not arbitrarily silence your opponents, no matter how extreme their views might be. I'm just amazed that you won't admit that the Maduro administration is run by a bunch of anti-democratic delinquents. You and the Chavista lot here have shown your true colors in the last few years; you don't care about the lack of democracy or freedom in a country so long as the government that runs it calls itself "leftist." It's kinda sad, really. And this is a site called "DEMOCRATICUnderground"

is two logical fallacies wrapped up into one.

Then to make up your own purity test for membership on this site (all caps is a nice touch) that is just a logical fallacy bonus!

Well, that's new. And besides, I'm not the one silencing or calling for the silencing of your opinion because you haven't done anything that disobeys the rules of the forum, while Maduro obviously is with those who disagree with him. So your example of me is not really relevant to the topic at hand. Jesus, just admit that Maduro and his ilk are showing very anti democratic behavior at this point, it's not that bloody hard! It's perfectly fine to admit that you're disappointed with a regime that has claimed to share your ideological views. I loved the fact that Obama became president, doesn't mean I agree with 100% of everything he's done, and I shouldn't!

Since the US has seized all US assets and money, disallowed the use of US banks and barred travel for Venezuelan government officials who protected the Venezuelan national interest in the Right Wing riots, it gives an unfair advantage to the Right Wing tools funded by the US. Since the US keeps interfering with Venezuelan politics and promoting the fascist right wing agenda of more capitalism, a few US funded Right Wing uber rich politicians who can't hold office will level the political playing field for everyone else.

Really, the US should let Venezuela decide for itself what type of government it wants and quit funding oppositions groups and leveling sanctions against government officials for doing their job.

You really think that would have any impact on the elections? Really?

Because the US didn't like the riots? No, the US funded the riots. They didn't like that the riots didn't overthrow the current administration because the 7 people who were sanctioned did their jobs.

for instigating violence against peaceful protesters.

Rightttt....we paid all these people......lol

Shouldn't the people have a real choice? What is Maduro scared of (besides losing power)?

The US is always willing to fund more of them. Do you really believe a handful of them sidelined will break the back of the opposition? I doubt it. It will merely give others an equal chance.

would you accept this in America?

You're falling for the BS propaganda spewed by TeleSur and the likes of other chavista-supporting sites that get reciprocated by other Chavista sympathizer sin this forum.

Like the pro-capitalist aren't awash in the swill of their own propaganda - mostly money from the uber rich in the US. Koch money anyone?

And the truth is, Maduro and his ilk are getting desperate, because they know they're responsible for the unbelievable mess that Venezuela is in, politically, socially, economically, what-have-you. And they know that if they lose the majority in the parliamentary elections this December, it'll be the beginning of the end for them. They know that once they're no longer in power, they will all be arrested if they don't get the chance to escape the country. And this doesn't just include the PSUV leadership such as Maduro and Diosdado Cabello, this also includes the current Supreme Court, the Electoral College, the Attorney General, EVERYONE, for favoring one particular party above all others (in this case the PSUV) which is outright unconstitutional. They would all be tried for crimes against the nation, and in time their multimillion dollar fortunes would be exposed, revealing just how deep their pockets went while they were in power, which would also add numerous counts of corruption to their sentences. And let's not even BEGIN to talk about their human rights abuses.

I frankly don't care what you believe. I am Venezuelan myself, and I know the language and culture of the country far better than you or anyone else in this forum, and even though I'm not living there myself anymore, I still have many friends and family who do. I've heard many stories that you wouldn't obviously hear about in the State-controlled media in Venezuela (which is like 90% of it, contrary to what the hardcore chavistas in this site would have you believe,) and I know for a fact that the current government we have is the most vile, resentful, corrupt, incompetent batch to have ever ruled my country that would make even a right-wing dictatorship like Pinochet's look tame.

Have you wondered perhaps why the Central Bank of Venezuela hasn't published official inflation rate numbers of the last 6 months? Have you wondered perhaps why Cuba is in a hurry to reestablish diplomatic and commercial ties with the US, even though their biggest ally (probably former biggest ally at this point) Venezuela has claimed the US to be behind a supposed economic sabotage? Then there's of course the warming up to White House representative Thomas Shannon a few weeks ago between Diosdado Cabello (a man who's currently under investigation by the DEA for running a drug empire) even after Obama signed into effect sanctions against a few Chavistas, which Maduro and co. (they even called on the country to sign a petition to send to Obama to repeal his executive order) made QUITE a fuss about right before the Summit of the Americas in Panama earlier this year (where Maduro ended up being the biggest loser, I might add.) And then there's also the most recent Mercosur meeting in Brasilia where Maduro ended up getting angry at Dilma Rousseff regarding the whole Guyana fiasco that he got himself into now (http://www.democraticunderground.com/110842360). And let's not even forget the poor job that the Chavista delegation did in Geneva some weeks ago during a UN human rights evaluation (the attorney general, Luisa Ortega Diaz, so much as went to tell one of the UN representatives to shut up during the hearing: http://www.excelsior.com.mx/global/2015/06/29/1031951)

The fact of the matter is, the current Venezuelan government has shown time and again just how vile and irresponsible they are when it comes to running a country, and the blame game they keep playing is not convincing anyone anymore (at least anyone with half a brain and not blinded by ideology.) Why? Because the truth is THEY are the ones who dug themselves into the hole they are in, and no matter how much propaganda they try to push through, their lies keep getting debunked, and they are slowly being left without arguments. Here's a thought, go to this website called APORREA.ORG, it's perhaps the most popular blog used by Chavista civilians (meaning real chavistas that don't necessarily work for the government and aren't afraid to voice their criticisms and opinions against it,) and you'll notice that there is gradually more and more discontent with Maduro and his administration.

set of rogues and vagabonds for another.

you think there is a place for this in a democracy?

would be PROPERLY democratic. Not a charade. But in any case, the combination of the size of the US and its lawlessness would render even a remedial despotism impracticable. Hypothesizing a less lawless US is unrealistic, at least this side of the Parousia.

Russia is a different kettle of fish. The Russian people realise what a secular saviour of their country Putin is, and I get the feeling that despite the worst efforts of the West to vilify him to the Russian people, they're not buying it; apart, that is, from the Usual Suspects, monied traitors who feel entitled. The people know he's the only thing standing between the good government they have now, and a total takeover by the wolves of Western kleptocracy.

Is that OK with you?

...where somehow, nobody the Government doesn't like gets to run for office.

Well, if that ain't hypocritical, I don't know what is. Why the hell are you even a member in this site?

The recent history of your country should have made it clear to you that democracy, never perfect, has been losing more and more battles against right-wing tyrannies. Why are you so content with the tyranny of your oligarchy of kleptocrats.

If the Chinese people, largely rural, had their way, they would have Mao back in less than a heart-beat. Likewise, before they chose Putin as virtual plenipotentiary in perpetuity, the Russians would have had the Communist regime back, some of the older, non-political folk, even Stalin.

Now some questions to you. Are you a CIA troll? How do you feel about the USA's role in South and Central America, destroying nascent democracies by supporting your country's rich and inveterately seditious friends? What about the School of the Americas and all? Oscar Romero's murder and the Jesuit and other religious and lay workers? The Batista regime in Cuba and Batista's mafia chums?

Only thing is, that oligarchy is composed of the PSUV leadership, who have stolen the Venezuelans' oil money, and the boligarchs who do business with them. Glad you're aware that there's an oligarchy in power, though. At least that's one step in the right direction for you

- No, not a CIA troll.

- I acknowledge the fact that the US, through the CIA, has been responsible for toppling governments, even democratically elected ones, around the world, even in South America. And all those things you mentioned are also heinous and should have never happened and I would never support them.

- The Batista regime was also autocratic and I recognize the US was a big supporter of it.

I honestly don't get why you and the other chavistas in this forum have to label anyone who doesn't agree with your ideologically blinded world view as a right-winger or some kind of agent for the rich. You seem to think only in extremes, and that is precisely the kind of mindset that rules Venezuela's government right now. Just so you know, I'm Venezuelan myself (born and raised there) so I think I certainly know better the situation than you could ever hope. And before you go on labeling me as some kind of right-wing oligarch who probably supports the Republicans, I'll have you know that I hope to GOD that Bernie Sanders is the next president, and I fully support Obama more than any other candidate the GOP has come up with, and fully back him on reestablishing relations with Cuba and hope that the embargo is lifted soon.

The world does not work in black and white, and not every bad thing that happens to a left-wing government (if you wanna believe that from the PSUV oligarchs) is a goddamn conspiracy from the CIA. Sometimes it's really just bad governing, and even though sometimes those governments are doing badly, the majority of their people will still vote for them because:
1. They are fed only the propaganda that the government wants them to be fed. There's less and less free press in Venezuela every day. You should see the kind of programming they put in VTV, the Venezuelan state-run channel. They paint the country as if it were some kind of paradise that not even the real chavistas from Aporrea.org believe.
2. They give things out to the poor in order to buy their votes. Just look at the latest stunt that they pulled with one of the new candidates campaigning for congressman in the parliamentary elections. They're giving out TVs from the state-run communication service company CANTV (an abuse that if seen in a developed nation would probably see the immediate condemnation from all parties.) Tell me, what kind of government allows a particular candidate to make use of their resources? Certainly not one that respects rules. If the opposition was as rich as you claim, why don't THEY go around giving free TVs to the poor and needy?
3. The ruling party itself is in control of all institutions, from the electoral to the judicial to the military, so they can count the votes however they please. Tibisay Lucena is the current president of the Venezuelan Electoral Center, and she is not afraid to show her blatant bias for the PSUV. These institutions are supposed to be separated from any government parties. And let's not even forget that their military commanders are not afraid to say that the Venezuelan armed forces are proudly "chavista." Again, this would also be considered an unconstitutional abuse in any other country, as the military are not supposed to be in favor of any political party or ideology.

You don't believe anything I say? Go to Aporrea.org. It's essentially a blog site that many Chavista intellectuals use to voice their opinion. It's in Spanish, though, but hey, thank god for Google Translate, right? Every day there's more complaining about how the government keeps ignoring the country's problems, and each day they are losing more and more faith in Maduro and believing less the BS about the "economic war" that the supposed oligarchs are waging against the Venezuelan people.

... as long as the people in charge are people you agree with. I see. Well, you fit right in with the Chavistas.

either of emerging or thriving (assuming it survives even haltingly) as long ultra-rich and powerful oligarchs engage in seditously preventing democracy. Never a favourite pursuit on the part of citizens in foreign countries, as far as the US is concerned. What do you think of what used to be called the School of the Americas? What do you think its purpose was? Are you in favour of stopping foreigners from being 'irresponsible', as Kissinger put it?

'Well, you fit right in with the Chavistas.'

I can't ell you how much I appreciate that compliment. Thank you.

If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, ya ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

...it's when that Government accepts the idea that the voters can change their minds.

I think Venezuela still needs to work on that part.

many young democracies fail this test.

Would that be all right with you, hack89?

Are you intending to reply to someone else?

That's quite an awful lot of people to send to jail for having a different opinion. Tell me, are you a fan of the likes of people like Mao Tse Tung, Stalin, etc? Cuz it seems like you'd just LOVE to live under a tyranny like the ones they had.

perhaps even a worse 'loose cannon' than most US-installed tyrants. Worse, he was highly intelligent in terms of bureaucratic expertise, though that contributed to saving our bacon in WWII.

Ok, that's all I needed to know. Now I know to disregard your opinion in whatever you say. Have a nice day!

to someone you know is not going to be receptive. I did resent that greatly. Don't forget to answer my questions before you slope off though, will you?

he was responsible for feeding , clothing and housing a fifth of the world's population. Now, go back to sleep, there's a good chap....

If by that you mean he killed 20 to 40 MILLION of them then sure...


The Great Leap Forward:
The official statistic is 20 million deaths, as given by Hu Yaobang. Yang Jisheng, a former Xinhua News Agency reporter who had privileged access and connections available to no other scholars, estimates a death toll of 36 million. Frank Dikötter estimates that there were at least 45 million premature deaths attributable to the Great Leap Forward from 1958 to 1962. Various other sources have put the figure at between 20 and 46 million.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

whether the horse goes right or left. Chavez, Castro, Putin are no friends of anything "progressive."