.... now if that man were a Syrian refuge or undocumented immigrant, that would really cross wire Trump's brain..

who have little or nothing at all I trust the most. If they were scoundrels of any sort they'd not be where they are. They'd have figured out a way to game the system to better themselves. imo


Yes HERO comes to mind when I read about this person. I would like to have him/her as my friend.

eom

that's what I'd do.

I never would have thought they'd be seen again. Why they were stolen and dumped is puzzling unless the thieves were afraid capture was at hand. I see one guy was charged..

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 03:24 PM - Edit history (2)

The armory was unmanned at the time of the robbery. Unmanned Arms Room is the situation only if the bolts to the weapons are being stored AWAY from the weapons. Since the 1930s bolts of National Guard Weapons are stored separately from the weapon unless the weapon is needed for training or other purpose. When the weapon is not needed it is kept locked by chains in the arms room which has a reinforced steel door. The arms room itself has thick walls with reinforced concrete or similar strength walls. The bolts are then moved to a manned armory, generally a nearby police armory.

Given this armory was unmanned the bolts were elsewhere. Thus this thief had wall decorations. He had nothing anyone was willing to pay for. Thus he ditched them after he found out he could not sell them.

In the 1970s a similar robbery of AR-15s happened and afterward the BATF required semi-automatic AR-15s made for civilian use have a bolt NOT interchangeable with M-16s. Thus the big fear of that previous robbery was not a concern, through I suspect the FBI sent a notice to any weapons dealer to report anyone wanting an AR-15 bolt.

Lost of military weapons is taken seriously. When I was in the National Guard other member of my unit lost a 45 caliber pistol. He reported, it was looked for, the FBI talked to him about it (after we returned home). When we returned home we had to unload our duffel bags to see if it was present. The soldier who lost the pistol reported he was watched by the FBI for at least six months afterward. He also had to pay for the weapon (you lose military equipment you have to pay for it at the cost paid by the government). The hassle involved was NOT worth whatever you could have sold the weapon for.

I bring this up for the list of weapons is something the US military takes seriously. If you lose a weapon expect at least six months of being closely watched. Personal gear the military is less concern about, you just pay for the equipment you lost. Weapons are a different ballgame.

I'm not arguing the policy, just curious whether any outlets reported it.

The report from ny said they recovered 1 rifle and 3 handguns in the bag outside yankee stadium. The other 13 weapons are unaccounted for.

Would the handguns also be disabled?

Last edited Mon Nov 23, 2015, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

The only time a National Guard Armory is unmanned (as this one was) is when the bolts are some place else. I was in the National Guard in the 1980s and that was the rule then and had been the rule since at least the 1930s. John Dillinger's favorite place to get weapons was Police Stations followed by National Guard Armories, thus the rule was adopted, the only time a National Guard Armory is unmanned is when the bolts to any and all weapons are some place else.

The rules were made stricter in the early 1970s. Prior to that time when a National Guard unit went on its two weeks, the soldiers were issued their weapons, and kept them till the two weeks were over. In the 1970s the rule became any time the troops return to the barracks, the weapons were turned it (Thus it was possible to have weapons turned in and then reissued later several times during the two week drill).

Given no one was in the armory, the bolts had to be some place else. When a unit is being called up, one of the first person to show up is the Unit Armorer (He has the keys to the Arms). If he was full time, he was already in the Armory thus not a problem. Once he has his key, the Armorer (or the First Sargent if he is the backup for the Armorer) gets the bolts from where ever they are stored. He gives the person holding the bolts, a copy of the order giving him the right to the bolts, signs for the bolts upon presentation of ID and takes them to the unit armory to put into the weapons, generally the night before everyone else shows up for drill. The Armorer, then has to sleep over night in the Armory to make sure no one steals the weapons. This is true even if the rest of the unit goes home each night of the drill if the weapons had their bolts installed (Many drill weekends we did NOT need our weapons, on such weekend drill the bolts were NEVER brought into the Armory, you do not need weapons if you are working on vehicles, drilling on first aid, working with 'Heavy Weapons (Mortars, Cannons when you are drilling on how to operate such weapons without ammunition or other drill that you do NOT need a personal weapon) or other military aspect where the weapon was NOT needed.

Thus the fact that no one was in the Armory when these weapons were stolen implies that the weapons had no bolts. I can be wrong, but if I am wrong, someone was breaking a rule that he or she can be court martialed for (and I do NOT mean the person who stole the weapon, I mean the Armorer and his First Sergeant and maybe even the Commander of the unit). Leaving the weapons alone if they had they bolts in them is something that can get each of the persons I named a long prison sentence. They are told that over and over again and I do not see ANY of them violating THAT RULE.

Remember, if the Armorer leaves those weapons unmanned, he can go to JAIL for violating the rule of leaving the weapons unmanned even if NOTHING HAPPENS. If someone finds out, someone is going to prison. Thus it is a rule that is NEVER violated without good cause, and good cause includes the First Sargent and the Unit Commander had been told AND not leaving the Arms Room till someone else is in the Arms Room (generally the First Sargent, till someone can be found to man the Arms Room).

Now, Technically, the Armorer does NOT have to be in the Arms Room 24/7, but he has a cart in the Arms Room to Sleep in and his meals are generally taken to him by someone else. When he leaves the Arms Room to 'relieve' himself, he locks up the arms room and return when he is finished. That is now strict the Military is when it comes to Arms Rooms with Weapons and their bolts. I can NOT see this man taking several weapons while someone is in the rest room, possible but not probable. Thus the arms room was unmanned when these weapons were stolen, and Arms Rooms are only unmanned if the bolts are some place else.

As to the pistols, it still has a bolt, like the M16 it is internal to the weapon but can be quickly removed, like the bolt for the M16. These bolts are then put into a cloth holder with the weapons number for each slot of the cloth holder. These cloth holders are then taken to a Armory that is manned full time, till it is time to use the National Guard Weapons, when the bolts are returned to the Weapons.

makes sense the way you explain it. Though I have to imagine the pistols could be rebuilt with easily available parts. Not so much the rifles...

Still, a limited market since they can't be fired without someone who really knows guns finding parts and rebuilding them. Your average gang member ain't gonna know that.

Thanx for the clarification.

There are people wearing their nicest dress uniforms, standing at attention and answering this very question.

They're not having a very good day.

and hearing about that break in and all they got away with was scary at first.

I mean, if military can't hold onto to its own weapons while in the USA.....

You can buy some scary shite at those, without background checks in many places. Then go on the tubes and you can buy upgrade kits to go fully auto on many models. There are even underground trades in anything from grenade launchers to anti-personnel mines.

It's not hard to put together a scary amount of fire power. True, the military should keep better care of their tools, but they aren't the only place to get stuff like that, and certainly not the easiest.

have been worried when the armory was broken into? If that is what you are saying, I disagree. It takes one mentality to display or buy a weapon at a gun show and quite another to break into a military armory to steal a bunch of weapons from the US military.

Yes, the military should keep track of it's toys. BUT, they do a pretty good job of it overall. They only lose weapons when they want to for the most part, and thefts aren't that common.

But if you want to concern troll people, this is the wrong target. It was one theft at a remote armory. It isn't common. It requires inside information.

Guns are ridiculously easy to get legally. Almost any weapon can be purchased illegally if you can get the connections.

missed the point.

The Unit Armorer and First Sergeants are NOT always full timers in the National Guard, but they are the ones who take care of the weapons. Now, the extent of the examination will be based on did the weapons have their bolts? As I have explained elsewhere, National Guard Armories do NOT kept the bolts in their weapons in their arms room UNLESS the arms room is manned full time. If these weapons had their bolts, the first question is where was the unit Armorer? He generally SLEEPS in the Arms Room when the bolts are present and thus has COMPLETE AND SOLE Control of how enters the Arms Room at such times. The Armorer's backup is generally the First Sergeant.

If the weapons had their bolts, where was the First Sergeant and where was the Unit Armorer are the first questions to be asked. Both better have a good explanation.

The problem, as I see the situation, is neither the Unit Armorer OR the First Sergeant were present for the bolts for the weapons were elsewhere (Which is the normal place for such bolts when the weapons are not needed). Thus as long as both can show that they had secured the Arms Room (and turned on any alarms) when they left, they are in the clear (and transported the bolts to wherever they are kept when not in the weapon).

Then we turn to the full timers in the Armory. Did they enter the Arms Room and why? Most will NOT even have the keys, for they are kept by the Unit Armorer, the First Sergeant and maybe the unit commander.

Please Note, the First Sergeant and unit Armorer MAY also be full timers of the National Guard Unit. Full timers within the National Guard Unit are people who work full time, five days a week in the National Guard but also hold a "Part time" position in the unit, when it is drilling or on Active Duty. Thus in this case, the Unit Armorer and First Sergeant MAY be "Cleared" as Unit Armorer and First Sergeant, but NOT in their roles as Full TImers, if they are also the Full Timers of the Unit. Given I have no idea of what position the Full Timers are holding in this unit, I must address the positions separately.

Given what we do know of the facts of this case, it sounds like the thief knew where the Arms Room was located and some how managed to by pass the alarms and enter the door to the Arms Room. It sounds like it was on a day the Armory was CLOSED, both the full timers and part timers were gone for the day. Maintenance of the Alarm system is a job up to the full timers. If the alarm is NOT working, they must report it and arrange for the Arms Room to be manned till the alarm is fixed. I suspect the Alarm was NOT working and had not been working and when the theft found that out, he broke into the Arms rooms and stole what he could. Knowing where the Arms Room was helped him, but given the bolts were stored some place else, he ended up with wall hangers. The Alarm was to be worked on, but no one wanted to stay overnight till the alarm was fixed, so the armory was unmanned while the alarm was out of order.

Thus I see the Unit Armorer and First Sergeant walking away from this without any reprimand, but the full timers will be punished for NOT reporting the Alarm did not work (or if they can convince someone they did not know the alarm was broke, for NOT testing the alarm as part of their job). The Full Timers also have to explain WHY they did not sleep overnight while the Alarm was off. That is expected when there is no alarm, but I suspect none of the Full TImers wanted to stay overnight in the Armory, they all wanted to go home.

I suspect the alarm has been offline for some time, and no one broke into the Arms Room till the day of this robbery. Thus the full timers were getting away with NOT staying in the Armory, till it blew up in their faces when the arms were stolen.

I suspect reduction in rank and termination of service are possible, but no jail time given the bolts were elsewhere and thus little fear that these weapons would be used in criminal activities (People could carry them, but having no bolts, look threatening but unable to be fired). If the full timers had permission of their Commander to go home while the Alarm was off line, then their Commander is liable. I do expect new orders coming from Washington that any Armory whose alarms are NOT working, MUST have someone present full time even if the bolts are elsewhere.

Please note, the above is the case ONLY if the Alarm was off line. If the Alarm was on line but this person was able to bypass it, then how could the full timers know the robbery was occurring? Under such circumstances, the general rule is that Full Timers can go home UNLESS something is not right. Arms Room door is locked and the arms themselves are locked and chained (normal practice for weapons) nothing is wrong.

Yes, there will be questions asked but the issue will become who is at fault here and if it is no one why did this man managed to get into the Arms Room and out with weapons before the local Police were notified. Why no alarm? How did he entered into the locked Arms Room? How was he able to by pass the chains and locked on the weapons? We will probably never hear the answers to these questions for I suspect it has to do with cutting costs and the Alarm was one of those things someone delayed on fixing (and the delay was do to keeping such costs low so it went to a contractor who took his time to fix the alarm). Thus no one in the National Guard unit or Armory is at fault, but it is further up the chain of command and somewhere before it gets to that level this will be forgotten.

But he did the right thing. good for him