Thanks for the thread, tabasco.

PPM CO2 is already over 400, something that has never been since man walked Earth. Humans add more and more CO2 to the environment every year. If you think the overnight temps, extreme weather events, and droughts today are unusual, the best is yet to come!

Makes you want to slap the shit out of the RWNJs AND Democrats who choose to sit out elections. 'Hey, we need to change course, like, YESTERDAY!'

Burned out trees in Yosemite

RW Idiots obsess over a few refugees. New adage...."They can't see the forest through the refugees!" Corny but true.

A lot of landscape trees here in Sacramento are dead or clearly dying, including some on public property that I'm amazed haven't been removed yet because they're obviously dangerous. The trees in front of my neighborhood library are enormous and established and now very dead, and somebody needs to do something because when they fall they're going to take out two duplexes or a dozen cars depending on which way they go. Wind will point them toward the houses.

to your east and also has a home in Roseville. I haven't been to Sacramento for a long time, but my memories from visiting are of pretty old neighborhoods with big old trees and old roses from the Gold Rush era.

but warmer weather means that tree-destroying insects will expand their range and threaten our wonderful forests. The beech and hemlocks are disappearing. Of course, no place is immune to drought.

It will provide some investment dollars, short term job growth and nice redwood decks for Dubai.

Just what seems to make people the most happy.

Not like anyone takes the plight of them seriously, aside from a few tree huggers, anyway. They are on the way out along with whatever lifeforms and lichens call them home and the least honest thing we could do now is start pretending we care.

It was national news at the time. I have no idea how many more were lost since then from the drought stress.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7BJ20M20111220

that the trees are facing.

At my house in the Sierra foothills (50 minutes south of Yosemite), we've lost fourteen Ponderosa pines that were over 90 ft tall. These were on a slightly elevated area on our property. The lower elevation trees down by the river appear to be healthy still. But, we have 4 more big pines scheduled to be coming down on Jan 29th by local tree people. This is going to make that part of the property much more sunny and hot come summer.

The CAUSE has been DUE TO BARK BEETLES - not just a lack of moisture. The pines CAN survive a lack of moisture as long as the beetles don't get them.

Yes, the lack of moisture prevents the pines from creating enough 'sap' or pitch to fight off the beetles by pushing them out of the bark. In fact I have found bark beetle bodies in sap that oozed from a tree - that is called an "unsuccessful beetle attack", but to say the tree deaths are just due to a lack of water is not the full story.

I have been very educated on the matter by my neighbors who are both fire and forestry professionals. One is a Yosemite Fire Chief, the other is former BLM and former Fire Captain and currently a gov't hired contractor who teaches the Armed Forces branches and local fire and police depts on how to manage large scale fire emergencies and the command structure that it requires.

These neighbors tell me that a BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM is too many trees growing TOO CLOSE together sucking out too much water from the soil. A large Ponderosa pine removes sixty gallons of water per day. The trees should be spaced between 12 and 17 feet apart. The trees in our California forests are far too over-crowded. We, the people, do not let enough forest fires cull the trees that are essentially killing themselves off.

Yes, conservative blame the lefties for being over protective of the forests but as soon as a "prescribed fire" is set to begin in the backyard of a Republican Congressman FORGET IT! "Not in my constituents backyard!" No one in the Sierra wants to live next to a large prescribed burn and have the smoke temporarily chase out the tourists, so the forests get more and more crowded and the trees take too much water from themselves. The coastal Redwoods is a COMPLETELY different story, their growth and survival is not dependent on fire ( as far as I know).

The tree deaths here are almost at "Biblical" proportions - and I'm an atheist. We're witnessing history in the making.

Still, we have PLENTY of other types of trees and pines at this 3,050 ft elev.. Cedars, many types of oaks.. The night sky will now reveal more stars.

over a fire chief and a BLM bureaucrat.

LMAO at "too many trees... sucking out too much water out of the soil."

But thanks for playing!

Last edited Thu Dec 31, 2015, 06:44 PM - Edit history (1)

TABSCO WROTE::::
tabasco (21,000 posts)
12. I think I'll believe Carnegie Institute scientists

over a fire chief and a BLM bureaucrat.

LMAO at "too many trees... sucking out too much water out of the soil."

But thanks for playing! >>>


Thanks for playing the fool Tobasco !!!

F.Y.I.

U.S. FOREST SERVICE::
In the absence of frequent understory fire, increases in stand density and TREE COMPETITION have made many forests more susceptible to bark beetle attack.
http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/documents/psw_gtr237/psw_gtr237_013.pdf

U.S. FOREST SERVICE::
Native bark beetles cause high levels of tree mortality in California
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5384837.pdf

UNIV. OF CALIF::
Competition from other plants, including NEIGHBORING TREES and shrubs can reduce diameter growth markedly, especially on droughty soils. Trees grown with intense COMPETITION are also subject to more insect damage.
http://ucanr.edu/sites/forestry/http___ucanrorg_sites_forestry_California_forests_Tree_Identification_/Ponderosa_Pine_Pinus_ponderosa/

UNIV. OF CALIF::
On the Stanislaus National Forest, areas with dead trees doubled since last year. Pine mortality, mostly caused by western pine beetle, was common at lower elevations.
http://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17982

NEWS PIECES::

Drought-empowered bug infestations killing trees in Sierra.
DAVIS, Calif. — Drought is taking a toll on California forest lands, weakening trees and making them more susceptible to deadly attacks from pests, according to a university study.
http://www.capitalpress.com/California/20150616/drought-empowered-bug-infestations-killing-trees-in-sierra

Beetles have killed 12 million trees
http://www.sierrastar.com/2015/05/27/73277/beetles-have-killed-12-million.html


Sierra Nevada pine tree die-off worsens as beetles thrive in drought
http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article19642632.html

BETTER LUCK NEXT YEAR "TOBASCO" !!

And thanks for the condescending tone of your first reply!
"WEST VIRGINA" I THINK I'M HEARING BANJOS!

First of all, I wasn't debating you about the effects of insects. You went manic for no apparent reason on that point. Maybe you missed my previous post about insect damage to trees in West Virginia. Reading is fundamental.

So... that leaves us with your claim that the real problem is just too many doggone trees, "sucking too much water out of the soil." Not only is that claim vapid, it's mind bogglingly stupid. Nowhere in the information you provided does it say that trees are "sucking too much water out of the ground," as you so ignorantly claimed. Trees hold the soil in place and RETAIN moisture in the soil. No trees = no soil = no water in the ground.

But let's take a look at two of your links that are potentially on-point, the first one and the third one:

1. The U. Cal. link is a general description of how Ponderosa Pine trees grow. NO SHIT SHERLOCK, competition from other trees means that individual trees will be smaller. Was anybody arguing that? That is what we like to call NATURE. Nowhere in the information does it say that too many trees are sucking too much water out of the ground. There's a reason for that. It's abject stupidity. Please provide a link at which U. Cal. claims there are "too many trees sucking too much water out of the ground."

2. Now, I'd like you to carefully read the third link, from the Forest Service. Does it say there are "too many trees sucking too much water out of the ground," as you so cogently argued? Sorry, Charlie, it just doesn't say that anywhere. There are a lot of big words so maybe you didn't understand. The article specifically discusses possible ways to manage forests to reduce bark beetle infestations. The article DOES say that tree thinning is some places has been successful in reducing tree mortality from BARK BEETLE infestation, but not DROUGHT. However, the article is equivocal (sorry for the big word) about the overall benefit of thinning for that ONE SPECIES OF TREE. Again, nowhere does it state that too many trees sucking water out of the ground is a problem.

Here are some links describing how trees KEEP WATER IN THE SOIL. Don't forget to pick up your lovely consolation prize. Good luck getting that GED in the new year!

Abstract: Plant roots transfer water between soil layers of different water potential thereby significantly affecting the distribution and availability of water in the soil profile. We used a modification of the heat pulse method to measure sap flow in roots of Grevillea robusta and Eucalyptus camaldulensis and demonstrated a redistribution of soil water from deeper in the profile to dry surface horizons by the root system. This phenomenon, termed “hydraulic lift” has been reported previously. However, we also demonstrated that after the surface soils were rewetted at the break of season, water was transported by roots from the surface to deeper soil horizons – the reverse of the “hydraulic lift” behaviour described for other woody species. We suggest that “hydraulic redistribution” of water in tree roots is significant in maintaining root viability, facilitating root growth in dry soils and modifying resource availability.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004420050521

A tree’s penetrating roots improve the soil structure by improving aeration and drainage. Probing root growth breaks up the soil, which creates spaces for storing air and water. Tree roots improve drainage because each root acts as an underground water channel to help water penetrate the soil.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/tree-roots-affect-soil-37932.html

Hydraulic redistribution of soil water by roots affects whole-stand evapotranspiration and net ecosystem carbon exchange. Hydraulic redistribution (HR) of water via roots from moist to drier portions of the soil occurs in many ecosystems, potentially influencing both water use and carbon assimilation. By measuring soil water content, sap flow and eddy covariance, we investigatedthe temporal variability of HR in a loblolly pine plantation during months of normal and below-normal precipitation, and examined its effects on tree transpiration, ecosystem water use and carbon exchange.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2010.03245.x/pdf

Yes, of COURSE we all know that plants' roots help keep soil in place and the shade from foliage keeps the soil cool and moist, duh.

However, pine trees also evaporate moisture and require moisture to create sap, agreed?
Poderosa pines can "drink" or can require 60 gallons of water per day, agreed?
More trees means more demand, more competition for water, agreed?
I would call that "sucking water" out of the ground, easy enough for you?
There has been not enough water for ALL of the trees to drink as required in the four years of drought, agreed?

Final deduction: The beetles are successful at attacking trees that don't have enough water which is needed to create sap to fight off the beetles.

That is it, it's not complicated.

Made even MORE simple for you:: When there isn't enough water for every tree to "suck" up to be healthy as in a drought, then most trees will be attacked by beetles.

The article heading this post made no mention of beetle kill, only the lack of water.
That is not the full picture just as I first wrote.

Those banjos are getting louder! They're calling you!

It is no surprise that trees move moisture around to save their roots, but when there is no water for years from drought?
When there are too many trees COMPETING FOR WATER - they can't produce sap and can't fight beetle attacks.

JUST LOOK IT UP, DON'T TAKE MY WORD FOR IT.

TABASCO PASTED:: """"""""""""
Abstract: Plant roots transfer water between soil layers of different water potential thereby significantly affecting the distribution and availability of water in the soil profile. We used a modification of the heat pulse method to measure sap flow in roots of Grevillea robusta and Eucalyptus camaldulensis and demonstrated a redistribution of soil water from deeper in the profile to dry surface horizons by the root system. This phenomenon, termed “hydraulic lift” has been reported previously. However, we also demonstrated that after the surface soils were rewetted at the break of season, water was transported by roots from the surface to deeper soil horizons – the reverse of the “hydraulic lift” behaviour described for other woody species. We suggest that “hydraulic redistribution” of water in tree roots is significant in maintaining root viability, facilitating root growth in dry soils and modifying resource availability.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004420050521

A tree’s penetrating roots improve the soil structure by improving aeration and drainage. Probing root growth breaks up the soil, which creates spaces for storing air and water. Tree roots improve drainage because each root acts as an underground water channel to help water penetrate the soil.


http://homeguides.sfgate.com/tree-roots-affect-soil-37932.html

Hydraulic redistribution of soil water by roots affects whole-stand evapotranspiration and net ecosystem carbon exchange. Hydraulic redistribution (HR) of water via roots from moist to drier portions of the soil occurs in many ecosystems, potentially influencing both water use and carbon assimilation. By measuring soil water content, sap flow and eddy covariance, we investigatedthe temporal variability of HR in a loblolly pine plantation during months of normal and below-normal precipitation, and examined its effects on tree transpiration, ecosystem water use and carbon exchange.



http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2010.03245.x/pdf

You wrote:: ""We're getting plenty of rain in West Virginia but warmer weather means that tree-destroying insects will expand their range and threaten our wonderful forests.""

Not a word about the effects of drought on pine trees.
As I said before, the article you first posted doesn't provide all of the facts about tree mortallity in the Sierra Nevada.

Nice attempt to cover your ass, though!

Knowing what you wrote and re-reading your own posts is something to strive for next time.

Sorry, no prize for you.

Gotta run.