In Oregon, angry protests about the killing of a wildlife refuge occupier
Source: Washington Post
BURNS, ORE. Hundreds of angry protesters shouted at each other Monday on the steps of the local courthouse in a town deeply divided by the month-long armed occupation of a nearby wildlife refuge by anti-government extremists.
More than 200 local residents carried signs that said, Get out of our town and We love the FBI and screamed Go Home! Go Home! at a group of nearly as many anti-government militia members who had come to protest last weeks police killing of LaVoy Finicum, a spokesman for the occupiers who had taken over the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.
Im here because I live here, and I want the militia to go back home, said Ramona Bishop, a local Harney County resident carrying a sign that said, Thank you, FBI.
The local residents timed their protest to start 30 minutes before a rally called by the anti-government organizations angry about the death of Finicum, who was shot dead by an Oregon State trooper Jan. 26 in an operation that also yielded the arrests of the occupations primary leaders.
<MORE>
Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/02/01/in-oregon-angry-protest-over-killing-of-wildlife-refuge-occupier/
randys1
(16,286 posts)protest.
Facts arent important here.
What is important is they hate the government.
They hate the United States
government...
Right? Anybody wanna debate that?
christx30
(6,241 posts)were ok with the deaths of Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, Freddie Grey, Eric Garner ect.
They analyzed every frame of evidence of available tape and every nuanced fact to exonerate the police in every death of an unarmed person.
But in this case, Finicum was, of course murdered. And the arrest of Bundy was unnecessary.
randys1
(16,286 posts)racism and white privilege.
It is ALWAYS about white privilege.
Given ALL whites have it, some just hold on to it a little tighter than others.
The racism is obvious, they hate the govt more now than ever because
of Black prez
Demit
(11,238 posts)Do you have a cite for what you're saying?
christx30
(6,241 posts)and the people that roll their eyes at the BLM protesters is pretty much a circle.
Demit
(11,238 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts)They want free government land, which belongs to US. Could not care less when black kids are gunned down by law enforcement.
saturnsring
(1,832 posts)marble falls
(57,106 posts)into sand-bags.
Crowman1979
(3,844 posts)...Paiute tribal artifacts and desecrate sacred land? Sort of like the curse of the Pharoahs in Egypt. Wouldn't be surprised if the voices inside Finicum's head telling him to take out the gun and drive the truck into a snowbank were the ghosts of the land's Paiute ancestors.
Megahurtz
(7,046 posts)since Finnicum was actually the one who rifled through the artifacts.
Darb
(2,807 posts)We should hang these fuckers around the necks of the Republican party, after all, that is who they are. Republican voting, Fox News watching, talk radio listening buttholes.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)The Tea Partiers were even coming to visit Ammon at New Redneckistan. The Republican Party Chair leads the Committee of Safety!
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)Finicum's actions were very confusing - arms go up, down, he reaches, he doesn't. Cops shoot from behind. It lends itself perfectly to an anti-government perspective.
I don't believe these yahoos are particularly concerned with opposing #BLM. they're 100% focused on themselves, their put-upon Christianity (and Mormonism), their bullshit "Sagebrush Rebellion", it's attendant "Sovereign Citizen" movement, and RKBA movements.
They believe they're the ones being persecuted and nothing will convince them otherwise.
Ever.
Kaleva
(36,312 posts)They"all still argue it was cold blooded murder. People will believe what they want to believe and no amount of evidence will cause them to change their minds
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)I don't like any unjustified shooting, even wingnuts.
All I've seen is the tape. He had his hands up and was surrendering, but then seemed to reach down, either to steady himself or get a pistol.
I was a cop a long time ago, pulled my service revolver (yes, that long ago) and a guy was surrendering. Another cop came along and screamed at the guy to "drop his gun," so the guy reaches into his pocket to get his gun to drop it. I actually tackled the perp because I thought the other cop was going to then shoot him.
The perp and other cop thanked me.
Anyway, that same scenario above went through my head when I watched the video.
Different times.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)His hands were not raised in surrender. His arms were outstretched for balance because he was running through deep snow. He stops when confronted by one officer and at that point his hand goes to his jacket where he had a gun in a shoulder holster. On the video it does appear that he pulls the gun out, but hears the officer behind him that came through the trees, turned his head in that direction and began to turn his body about to face that officer who then shot him. The officer who he was originally facing likely also shot at the same time to prevent him from firing at the officer that came behind him. Either he did indeed pull out his gun or he miraculously grew an extremely long hand. This is much more clear in the video that was zoomed in and in slow motion that Oregon Live has on its site.
There was nothing whatsoever of his actions upon exiting the vehicle that can be remotely assumed to be surrendering. He LEPT out of the vehicle the moment it came mostly to rest (Mrs. Cox said that the wheels were still spinning) and RAN at the officers despite the depth of the snow. He did not have his hands raised ABOVE HIS HEAD in surrender at any time. He dropped his arms only when he stopped running and went for his gun which WAS found on him and that he had been carrying it in a shoulder holster exactly where he was reaching.
Also, there is no audio with the video, and it has been said by militia members who witnessed it that while he was running he was yelling at the police to shoot him.
Given that it was known he was armed, that he said multiple times that he wouldn't be taken alive, that he fled from one roadblock, and nearly crashed into another, police were within their rights to fire on the vehicle when he was clearly not slowing down at the second roadblock and nearly ran into the vehicles there narrowly missing ramming into one officer.
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)Because from just watching the video (I have not looked at any of the other sources you discuss due to time constraints -- I was in Iowa for Bernie), it looks like what I said.
But, again, I haven't read or listened to any of the other stuff, which I fully concur is relevant.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)Given the general mindset of the occupiers, and Finicum's specific statements, an outcome like this wasn't unforeseeable. I was wondering if the OSP/FBI people could have been prepared with options. Suppose a few of the LEO's onscene had had nonlethal methods. I don't know what the technology is these days -- tasers? stun guns? tranquilizing guns? I just know that I've seen documentaries where the wildlife officers get a shot with a trank gun at a big old bear. The bear looks confused for a couple seconds, then keels over, out cold.
In dealing with Finicum, no one should have to risk his or her life unnecessarily. I could certainly see most of the personnel having normal guns with live ammo, prepared to shoot to kill if necessary. But would it have been feasible for them to make more of an effort to take him alive? Maybe as soon as he exits the car he's stunned or tranquilized or immobilized? And if that shot misses and Finicum is reaching for his pocket, then somebody sends him off to his desired martyrdom.
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)I was a cop after getting back from WWII. A lot has changed.
I will say one bad thing is cops used to be lot bigger guys and in a lot better shape. I could risk non-lethal force because I could clobber 99% of the people I encountered, especially with a billy club. I drew my pistol 3 times and shot it zero times.
Fat, small, and out of shape cops have to resort to deadly force a lot faster.
Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)Nevertheless, the profusion of guns must be a factor too. These days, even big, strong, fit cops have to worry more about somebody pulling a gun. I'd guess that that fear tends to reduce reliance on the billy club.
Finicum's case is an example. There was no one within 20 feet of him when he reached for his pocket. A cop who tried to rush Finicum to clobber him could easily have been shot dead before being able to disarm him.
OldRedneck
(1,397 posts)Many years ago I saw a movie based on true events in a small Mid-Western town -- may have been one of the Dakotas, Kansas, whatever. The story focused on a local bully who assaulted women, beat up men, generally pushed people around and was never held liable for his actions. One day, a crowd was gathered on a street where he had walked into a store. When he came out, he was shot dead . . . everyone in the crowd developed amnesia and the shooter was never found.
I keep thinking: One or more people in Burns are going to decide enuf is enuf, they'll pull out their hunting rifle(s), and . . .
Judi Lynn
(160,545 posts)As a memory refresher, here's the NY Times story:
Town Mute for 30 Years About a Bullys Killing
By A. G. SULZBERGER
DEC. 15, 2010
SKIDMORE, Mo. The murder of Ken Rex McElroy took place in plain view of dozens of residents of this small farm town, under the glare of the morning sun. But in a dramatic act of solidarity with the gunman, every witness, save the dead mans wife, denied seeing who had pulled the trigger.
The killing was a shocking end for a notoriously brutal man who had terrorized the area for years with seeming impunity from the law until he was struck down in a moment of vigilante justice. It was also the first major case for a young county prosecutor, not far removed from law school and just months into the job, who said he was confident that the case would be solved soon.
But the silence of the townspeople held. Now, nearly 30 years later, that prosecutor, David A. Baird, is preparing to leave office with his first and most famous case still unsolved.
No one has ever been brought to trial in Mr. McElroys death, and, although there is no statute of limitations on murder, most people around here suspect that no one ever will be.
More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/us/16bully.html?_r=0
[center]
Ken Rex's truck after the shooting. [/center]
jpak
(41,758 posts)shocking & lurid.
that said - vigilantes suck.
yup
csziggy
(34,136 posts)Harry N. MacLean wrote a book with the same name and the TV movie was adapted from the book. The entire movie is on YouTube:
Kennah
(14,276 posts)... told of a vigilante killing he witnessed in the 1910s as a young boy. Horse thief in rural Ohio was shot dead, taken away, and buried. No grave marker, but a small fence was erected around the burial site to "keep him in".
Vigilante killing and odd superstitions.
sanatanadharma
(3,707 posts)...his friends from that other tribe of regressives, the ones who over and over, when the dead are dark and 'urban', tell us that,
" fill in the blank killed by cop) should have obeyed the cops, straight up, immediately; it is (whoever they hate)"s fault for being dead. Don't those people ever learn?"
We all cast our subjective projections upon the shared reality of the world. Most us operate within the socially tolerable parameters of subjectivity accepted in sane company. Our illusions are investigated and our delusions delved into.
Then there are the others whose personal projections are profoundly perverted and present a clear danger to civilized society.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Traitors to our Country and the Republic. Shitting on the Democratic Process, The Constitution, and The Bill of Rights. Everything that Americans hold dear.
Seditionists.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1692037261052064&id=341163402640457
Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)No farm subsidies, no road maintenance, no police or fire presence. . .nothing. Let these worthless libertarian assholes do it all themselves.
jobendorfer
(508 posts)I'm writing this in the hopes of adding some light rather than heat to the topic ...
I can certainly empathize with your frustration.
In fairness, though, I must point out that the majority of armed occupiers were not
residents of Oregon, and with 1 or 2 exceptions, were not farmers or ranchers.
(Which is one of the odd things about the whole affair.)
The farmers and ranchers in Harney County, while they are often frustrated with
the system, have for the past 10 years worked in concert with the Paiute Nation,
the Fish & Wildlife Service, and environmental groups on usage plans and water
allocations that everyone could at least live with, if not love. Beyond the tragic
loss of life in this business, the probable unwinding of a lot of good-will and hard
work is a major blow to progress in eastern Oregon.
I heard of numbers like 100 or 150 people in Harney County today demonstrating
in favor of the armed occupiers. That's in a county of 7500. That is, there are lot
of ranchers and farmers there who want nothing to do with the Bundy gang or his style,
some of who showed up today to counter-demonstrate (outnumbering the Bundy
supporters, as it happens.) Some of these people openly challenged Bundy in community
meetings -- fearing a loss of subsidies that they depended on -- as the reason they
wanted him out of town.
A blanket cut-off of federal money would punish far more innocent businesspeople
in Harney County than it would punish Bundy supporters/sagebush rebellion types.
Disclosure: I'm a pretty left-leaning guy and an environmentalist. But I try to be
a honest observer, and so felt compelled to point out that not every farmer and rancher
in eastern Oregon is a bad guy. Far from it, from where I sit, many of them have made
real concessions to make rural Oregon a better place.
John
Feeling the Bern
(3,839 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)There numbers are outright lies, right off!
On the scene reporters in Oregon:
Amanda Peacher ?@amandapeacher 8 hours ago Burns, OR
I estimate 300 locals here supporting law enforcement and officials, 150 protesting Finicum's death. Tense.