So awful

Killing innocent people -- doctors, nurses, patients...

What century is this?

And we gave no grounds to say shit after our hospital bombing last year.

which is still more than you'll EVER see Russia do...

Who specifically was at fault?

of the internal review final report...

And while we're going down this road, when does Russia come clean on MH17? I still haven't forgotten about that...

Got it.

Maybe the Russians will do an internal review and you can request it when they're done.

What need is there to come clean about on MH17?
Ethnic Russian Ukrainian separatists shot it down with a Russian made and supplied anti-air battery.
No mystery there.

the Russians don't DO internal reviews over this sort of thing -- They have a very, very different doctrine of R.O.E. and civilian casualties, so I'm a bit dismayed that they don't even earn a fraction of the outrage...

Case in point: http://joshuafoust.com/msf-vs-msf-in-afghanistan-and-syria/

And one more time, a Buk missile launcher system is a very complex piece of machinery and it's highly unlikely that a band of local yokels and farmers would be able to turn it on, much less operate it... Since it's common knowledge that the Russian army *DID* cross the border and engage in fighting, either they fired it themselves, or they taught the yokels how to fire it with no oversight whatsoever... Either way, they need to come clean, and if for the sake of argument Russia is completely blameless, then I don't know why they repeatedly blocked a UN inquiry...

I get it, you hate the Russians.

we get it, you defend the fascist gov of Putin & when his military shoots down an airliner or bombs a hospital, it's someone else's fault.

You guys sound like jilted 'shippers.

Forgive the average reader who sees an insulting condescension & apologist-wipeout in this dismissal of hundreds of dead civilians in one fell swoop:

Last edited Tue Feb 16, 2016, 02:38 PM - Edit history (1)

In other words, making shit up.

as others on this thread also agreed.

Feel free to backpedal on this all you want, but it's clear-cut apologia:

But feel free to continue with your bloviating misinterpretation of what I wrote.
I've been baited enough by your obsessive bullying.

that the left applies to the United States to get applied to other countries for similar transgressions...

What's wrong with that?

I was noting that it is hard for us to argue from the 'high' ground when we do the same shit.
What the Russians are doing is flat out awful and damaging to the stability of Syria, but there are lots of awful players to go around.
Unfortunately, thanks to some shitty foreign policy decisions over the last 15 years, we can't exactly lecture the other players in this conflict.

Cowards and devilry.

and peacenik, I don't exactly know how I feel about healthcare workers practicing in the middle of war zone(not safe zone) and giving aid and comfort to militant groups like the FSA (with their well know close relations to Al Nusra). If they are allowed to continue treating them and the fight goes on longer and longer, it would lead to more innocent civilians dying and that is not a good thing.

Just like with the bombing on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, if this leads to end of the foreign invasion, then that is a good thing.

Its also funny how there is barely any news about the Saudis crushing the domestic resistance group in Yemen. Essentially, the mightiest and riches country in the middle east is pummeling the poorest and defenseless country and there is not a sight of Kerry and the UN calling for a seize fire or humanitarian aid. The US was quick to setup a blockade so they Yemenis can be starved of food and weapons and then sit quietly while the evil Saudis to their work. Btw, the US have yet to do anything about militants and weapons flowing into ISIS held areas.

and you may be the first healthcare worker I've ever heard suggesting that treatment might be better withheld. It's the basis of Hague and Geneva conventions to give medical treatment to those who need it, whatever side they're on. Odder still is to call that 'aid and comfort'.

I am sure there is something in international laws that forbids one country (the US and their allies) from violating the sovereignty of another country (syria) without the UN security council approval but that hasn't stopped the US from doing so. You can't play by the rules when your jihadi opponent and their allies want to turn you into another Libya.

Also, I forgot to mention that I don't consider all healthcare worker as special people. If they are giving aid and comfort to terrorists especially when its providing said support to an invading army, I have no problem whatsoever in seeing said facility bombed (after some warning) by the locals and their allies. I am not the type of person that believes in cliques like "support the troops" or "you can never attack healthcare workers". Context is everything, for example, I would support bombing of a Nazi hospital providing care to Nazi troops who are committing genocide on innocent civilians. The fact that they are healthcare workers is secondary to the crimes they are accomplices to.

and it must be a first for a DUer to accuse them of being accomplices to crimes. Congratulations. Then again, not many 'peaceniks' are in favour of dropping both atomic bombs on Japan. Your views are particularly special.

To give aid and comfort to terrorists group. The Syria people dying at the hands of this foreign menace would disgree with you and the diplomats sleeping comfortable in 5 star hotels. What they decide to do to this foreign arm and their hospitals is up to them. Fuck the diplomats who predicted(wished) this war in Syria would be a generational one.

Also, I didn't say I supported the Atomic bomb attack on Japan but I used it since most Americans see it as an attack on civilians that prevented a bigger loss of civilian lives. I happen to be one of those people who believe that the war was mostly over when the Americans decided to test their bomb on Japan.

But hey, I am not the one that would refuse to bomb a Nazi camp filled with medical staff treating and releasing Nazi soldiers just because of some adherence to international law. My problem with the use of international law is that it only seems to be conveniently used as an excuse when the Americans and their allies are being defeated on the battlefield. What about a seize fire for the poor Yemenis? How come nobody is going to pay for what happened to Libya?

Many Syrians in that area don't like Assad (his family has been in power for about 40 years, and has carried out massacres, and Assad is accused of a state policy of extermination by the UN). But you're saying it's fine for Assad, or his ally, to bomb a hospital treating those Syrians.

This is a new definition of 'peacenik', obviously. One who wants hospitals and civilians bombed by a war criminal.

Just like the State dept accusing Gaddafi of using viagra fed armies to terrorize women or that he used foreign mercs on his people. Too bad for the people who don't like Assad, they can could have carried on with peaceful demonstrations like MLK and Gandi did but once they joined forces with head choppers, all bets were off. Heck, I didn't like GWB, I thought the SC stole the election and he allowed 9//11 to happen but if I had decided to start an armed insurrection because of it, I would expect the govt fight back. Not call me a moderate opposition and try to prevent the air force from bombing my position

Its funny how all the crimes they are accusing Assad of committing occurred after the civil war started. Add to it the fact that the biggest sponsors of the uprising is the monarch of Saudi Arabia whose has been ruled by the Saud family for god know how many years.

I have a video of the rebels throwing postal worker off the roof of a building because they worked for the govt, videos of the burning govt building with people trapped inside them. Just imagine what would have happened to the Bundy's if they committed just a tiny fraction of the atrocities the so called opposition were accused of committing before the Syria govt started attacking.

I am a peacenik which means that i do not tolerate trouble makers and people quick to start fights. I won't start a fight but start one and I will make sure you lose the ability to chew solid food.

You are truly amazing. I never though to find a DUer like that.

I only oppose the UN and the MSF when they are doing something I disagree with like trying to broker a seize fire for the Al Nusra rebels or treating them in the battlefield. As for Dr. Assad, I have no problem with him fighting the foreign backed militants the way he is fighting it. I think he was an OK president before he was attacked by foreign govts, his government treated women, religious minorities very well, accepted displaced refugees from our wars in Iraq and I never heard stories of political opposition killings like we hear happening in Saudi Arabia today.

Btw, I did not grow up in the US so my experiences in life which has helped mold my political views is very different from that of many DUers.

that fell for the African mercenary lie in Libya? Sorry but I do not believe these people, to me, they are just mouth piece for the west. Their job is to demonize American's enemies to get the western populations less resistant to war when they start attacking said country. You see this same line "Assad is a bad guy all the time" when 99% of the people saying it cannot tell you why they believe that.

in the reliability game of AI vs Assad or Gaddafi, you choose Assad or Gaddafi. Ooookaaaay....

"i do not tolerate trouble makers and people quick to start fights..."
...and doctors healing the injured and ill too, it seems.

"I am a peacenik which means that..."
However, I understand the convenience of alleging to be a person of peace to better maintain the pretense of validity when fundamentally arguing against peace.

but regardless of International law, the doctors shouldn't be there treating these moderate beheaders. Think of it from the perspective of a Syrian civilians who is tired of the death and destruction and just want it to end. The presence of these doctors supports the militants fueling the civil war. The more help they provide to the foreign backed elements, the more death that occur and the more damage that would happen to the country.

Personally, I think if such a law should exist, it should only be used to protect hospitals treating only civilians, hospitals far away from the war front and hospitals with permission to set up from the legitimate govt of the country. Anyone else should be fair game for attack.

Last edited Mon Feb 15, 2016, 11:17 PM - Edit history (1)

I would come out against such an attack if Russia tomorrow bombed a MSF hospital anywhere inside Ukraine (rebel held or govt area). I think I see Russia's play in foreign policy as a snake taking care of the rodent infestation in my barn. A snake I wouldn't want to see around when the rodents are gone.

So just as long as the west are busy being imperialists, I welcome the Russia's efforts to counter that.

In before the "But since Russia did this it doesn't count!" -response

Russia hits FOUR hospitals PLUS a schoolhouse in one day, and the response from the Dudebro left is scant at best...