we don't need the draft, not now, not ever.

...making the point that people should participate in some kind of service, such as diplomatic service, working with students, etc. Not only military service.

conducted? How would they decide who would be assigned to which jobs?

No thanks. The reason we don't have a draft today is because we lost 50,000 American lives to a war that involved a draft. The draft provided endless cannon fodder. The pointless war in Vietnam would never have gone on that long if we had to fill the ranks with volunteers. And we realized that afterwards, and that's why we got rid of the draft.

Last edited Thu Apr 28, 2016, 01:19 PM - Edit history (1)

...what Kerry was talking about. He only said that more Americans should find ways of giving back to their country. If not through military service, in some other way...such as the Peace Corps, working in diplomacy, working with children, helping the elderly, etc.

Here's a link to yesterday's event. And BTW...Ken Burns, who interviewed Kerry, has a new 18 hour long historical documentary series coming out about the war in Vietnam.

http://www.vietnamwarsummit.org/live/

was voluntary, fine. But if it's just a way to make sure they have a ready supply of cannon fodder, then it isn't.

in the Swiss Army for all able-bodied male citizens who are conscripted when they reach the age of majority.

People who are unfit for service, where fitness are exempted from service but pay an additional 3% of annual income tax until the age of 30, unless they are affected by a disability.

Unfit defined as "satisfying physically, intellectually and mentally requirements for military service or civil protection service and being capable of accomplishing these services without harming oneself or others"
http://www.indexmundi.com/switzerland/military_service_age_and_obligation.html


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/europe/swiss-vote-to-keep-mandatory-army-service.html?_r=0

Some people in Switzerland have tried dual citizenships to avoid service.

I agree with Kerry. When everyone, including the wealthy have something to lose , we would probably avoid going to war.

of a pointless, deeply unpopular war. It increases it.

If you don't want to do military service, you can go change bedpans for a while.

thought it needed them.

... But only for men between a certain age range.

If we needed em, we could have em but only after going through many other layers of reserves.

As an army guy, I'll be the first one that say that I don't want to fight with anyone who doesn't want to be there.

In my younger days, I has enough problems with young Soldiers who actually agreed to go. Can't even imagine a significant portion of that group and who were there against their will.

needed it in the Civil War, and of course state draftees fought in the Revolutionary war.

for the military draft. Do they know something we don't?

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/house-committee-votes-require-women-register-draft-38722567

Just like the men.

the argument was that it would subject women to the draft.

First we need to approve the Equal Rights Amendment, then we can register women.

Therefore, they should be required to follow all requirements that the men are. This is the military, not Kroger. You're not black, white, male or female. You're green. Thats they way it goes. Dont like it? Dont join. Thats why the volunteer force is better than a conscripted one. The ERA has nothing to do with it.
We've already had our first female graduates of Ranger school. We're soon to have our first female combat commanders as well. They're performing on the field & getting promoted alongside the men. There's no special treatment, they should register. Not that it means anything, as we dont (nor should) have a draft.

to offer their kids up as a sacrifice to protect the emperor.

Otoh, if the enemy comes to my house, I will point the way to where the stubby-fingered little pedophile lives, but that's just me.

The idea was that people have more pride in their country when they give something back. They also understand the sacrifice when they serve.

Besides, one gets out of one's little cocoon, meets and interacts with people from all over the country, and grows - or not - from the experience.

Kerry did specify that "service" did not necessarily have to be in the military.

if everyone's butt was on the line there would be fewer wars, as is, no more wars. All volunteer and the massive corporate mercenary service guarantees decades of useless wars.

that nobody wanted.

We realized after we finally ended that war that if the military had to rely on a volunteer force their options would be much more limited. They couldn't just throw tens of thousands of conscripts into an unpopular war.

You don't see people demonstrating in the streets when they don't have to worry about being drafted, or their kids.

Those demonstrations weren't the end of the war.

Watergate was the end of Nixon and the end of the war.

We haven't had a draft since the end of Vietnam. And we've had decades worth of involvement in combat.

Why is that? Because starting a war isn't really about having the manpower to fight the war. It's about political willingness to manifest power through the use of military force. Leaders who are, for whatever psychological reasons, willing to field combat forces in order to display power are the danger.

My education suggested that war resulted when politics failed. I think that's bullshit. War results when leader insist on being powerful.

Until we realize that, we will keep electing leaders who will get this nation into military conflicts. We can alter the parameters with which war/conflicts can be initiated, but war will be initiated. Which is to say we can force leaders to go into conflict with the military they have, rather than the military their visions of self-empowerment might want.

should have given at least two years to the service of their country.

It's always the poor and unemployed who end up in the military, because they have no other options.

As recent as a 2008 study, the military is mostly comprised of people from middle & upper class backrounds; with incomes of 40K & over. They also are more likely to be better educated than the average civilian population. And its also not mostly minorities; the military is about 60% white, which is fairly close to the national population.


ETA: While I dont support a draft, I DO think the majority of young people would benefit from some service. I know my dad didnt have to join, but to the day he died he said it was the best decision he ever made. I didnt have to join, and my time was also a good ecision on my part. Good training, lifelong friends. The most successful people I know now as an adult had prior military service. The military service helped make them better businessmen, IMO

specifically Army, I think it was--it didn't "look like" American society, at least not during the Iraq War last decade.

The percentage of whites was "right," but there were more Latinos than you'd expect, fewer Asians, and fewer African-Americans.

If you looked at combat troops, they skewed strongly Latino and white, with the logistical "back of house" operations skewing towards more African-Americans.

Then again, that's sort of looking at "Latino" as a race, instead of viewing everything as black and white.

they're really not any whiter than Asians are, but many govt stats have done it. I think thats been changing though. The stats I read did break out the Hispanic segment apart from white

If this country needs to go to war, it should be shared by all; one per-centers should NOT be exempt. If we do go to war again, that war should NOT be put on the national credit card like like Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam and ......

We also need to rethink the expensive military crap that we continue to buy. Nine billion billion dollars for a submarine? Fourteen billion dollars for an unfinished aircraft carrier? Replacing our $240 grand hummers with $600 grand Joint Light Tactical Vehicles? The new B-21?

Did you know that women will be included in the next draft?

Historically, though, conscription has been evaded by the privileged, whose pride in their country and connection with its people have always been confined to their fortunate circle. And compulsory social service smacks of the Todt Organization, turning citizens into nice little robots who march with polished shovels instead of rifles. OTOH, one might reasonably argue that rubbing shoulders with all classes of people is of tremendous value in learning about liberty and diversity. These are lessons we do want the majority of our citizens to learn; as for the rich, I don't really see how any law could ever be enforced that would affect them.

-- Mal

Respectfully, you are mistaken about socio-economic status and
those who join the military.

I'd suggest you do not rely on the Heritage Foundation as a source.
They lie about everything.

Here is less biased data and analysis . .

http://surface.syr.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1002&context=soc

which shows . .

". . the all-volunteer force continues to see overrepresentation
of the working and middle classes, with fewer incentives for
upper class participation."

was a powerful influence on ending the war.

That, and the mutinies among the troops & sailors, which
terrified the war mongers.

And anti-war actions within the military were often
led by draftees.

Seems backwards to me. How is that going to curtail wars? An all volunteer Army would quickly dry up when the supposed volunteers realize they are going to be going to war. They simply won't volunteer! A draft on the other hand guarantees a steady flow of people for the military to dispose of.

Don't we already give back? It's called paying our taxes. Oh that's right, only the working class does that. So maybe we should draft the one-percenters.

it's worth remember why Nixon ended the draft:

Nixon thought ending the draft could be an effective political weapon against the burgeoning anti-war movement. He believed middle-class youths would lose interest in protesting the war once it became clear that they would not have to fight, and possibly die, in Vietnam.