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cali

(114,904 posts)
Sat May 21, 2016, 10:49 PM May 2016

Israel is “infected by the seeds of fascism” and has been taken over by “extremists,” warn ex-prime

Source: Salon

Israel is “infected by the seeds of fascism” and has been taken over by “extremists,” warn ex-prime minister and defense ministers
Israel’s ex-prime minister has warned that his country is “infected by the seeds of fascism.”

Ehud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister and defense minister, said in an interview on Israeli TV on Friday night that fascistic, extreme right-wing politics are on the rise in his country, Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported.

“What has happened is a hostile takeover of the Israeli government by dangerous elements,” he cautioned. “And it’s just the beginning.”

Barak’s comments come just weeks after Israeli Maj.-Gen. Yair Golan compared Israel to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, in a Holocaust Remembrance Day speech on May 4.

Read more: http://www.salon.com/2016/05/21/israel_is_infected_by_the_seeds_of_fascism_and_has_been_taken_over_by_extremists_warn_ex_prime_minister_and_defense_ministers/



I hope this doesn't get locked. It's a legitimate and important news story and it was published today
73 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Israel is “infected by the seeds of fascism” and has been taken over by “extremists,” warn ex-prime (Original Post) cali May 2016 OP
Barak was better than Bibi Rosa Luxemburg May 2016 #1
Scary Times pmorlan1 May 2016 #2
wowza! Pharaoh May 2016 #3
Someone tries to stab you to death on the street, but you have a gun Brother Joe Observes May 2016 #4
Hmm. Who to believe? You or the former PM and Defense Minister cali May 2016 #7
That's not it at all, and I'd bet you know that. RiverNoord May 2016 #14
I would complete endorse the idea of a contiguous Palestinian State Brother Joe Observes May 2016 #16
The Palestinians recognized Israel's Right to Exist on September 9 1993 azurnoir May 2016 #32
What about Hamas? hack89 May 2016 #65
Hamas isn't a player not then not now azurnoir May 2016 #68
So the PA has absoloute control of Gaza including Hamas military forces? hack89 May 2016 #69
Israel is a fascist, tribalist, supremacist, genocidal-in-intent state, they are NOT our ally, they AntiBank May 2016 #15
You think we should stop aiding Israel financially? I agree! Brother Joe Observes May 2016 #18
tell us how you really feel uhnope May 2016 #23
Supremacist: sulphurdunn May 2016 #30
Genocidal? oberliner May 2016 #35
Netanyahu appoints Ayelet Shaked—who called for genocide of Palestinians—as Justice Minister in new AntiBank May 2016 #42
Thanks for your response and for sharing those links oberliner May 2016 #53
Ethnic cleansing is really just a soft soap term for genocide. leveymg May 2016 #51
That is preposterous oberliner May 2016 #54
The forcible driving out of specific ethnic or religious groups is ethnic cleansing. leveymg May 2016 #57
Ridiculous duplex May 2016 #41
sorry, not buying your stale, tired defence of a this savage, tribal hate state AntiBank May 2016 #43
And I'm not buying your burning hate cali May 2016 #59
Actually I think it is more like this: padfun May 2016 #20
+1. nt awoke_in_2003 May 2016 #25
Alternatively.... oberliner May 2016 #36
Ask that question another way: Orrex May 2016 #24
That's like saying that after I destroy sulphurdunn May 2016 #27
No it's not oberliner May 2016 #37
Native Americans are US citizens. sulphurdunn May 2016 #39
Palestinian citizens of Israel have been doing the stabbing oberliner May 2016 #56
Actually, the overwhelming majority of these stabbings sulphurdunn May 2016 #63
Palestinian detained after alleged stab attack injures Israeli near Tel Aviv oberliner May 2016 #64
The majority of Palestinian attackers sulphurdunn May 2016 #70
That point is taken oberliner May 2016 #71
Agreed sulphurdunn May 2016 #73
An interesting false choice you present there anigbrowl May 2016 #66
more like someone stabs you on their street so you use that as an excuse to bomb their block yurbud May 2016 #72
Israel has become what it hated. silverweb May 2016 #5
With Bibi there is no hope of compromise, only intransigence, and hence more violence in the MidEast EndElectoral May 2016 #6
Remember all those trips Conservatives took on the side to Israel? glinda May 2016 #8
lets just hope agnostic102 May 2016 #9
I think we are equally in danger from Clinton who has ROBERT KAGAN as a advisor! Peace Patriot May 2016 #12
Yes. Good post. Thanks for sharing! trudyco May 2016 #49
Powerful stuff. They aren't the first high-level former Israeli officials to stand up against Likud RiverNoord May 2016 #10
From Jonathan Freedland's opinion piece in The Guardian. Bad Dog May 2016 #11
Japan too. nt bananas May 2016 #13
Seems like extremists are at the battlements of just about every country right now. Kablooie May 2016 #17
and how do U.S. politicians stand on Israel? political marxist May 2016 #19
thnx apoorva May 2016 #21
They are out of control, and have been for some time. It's worked for them, so well, it appears silvershadow May 2016 #22
It has worked for them... awoke_in_2003 May 2016 #26
I suppose there comes a time sulphurdunn May 2016 #28
Our countries policy... awoke_in_2003 May 2016 #29
No one labels anyone an anti-semite for standing up for human rights oberliner May 2016 #38
Well, in many Zionist circles the Jewish people sulphurdunn May 2016 #40
That's not true oberliner May 2016 #55
That's what I said. Most Jews are not Zionists. sulphurdunn May 2016 #62
Sadly, the same thing will be happening in America, if Trump wins. lark May 2016 #31
'Netanyahu replies to Officers’ charges of Fascism, makes far Right Avigdor Lieberman their boss' seafan May 2016 #33
political generals and ideological officers? that always turns out well! MisterP May 2016 #34
It's one of those things libodem May 2016 #44
Israel is considered above reproach? oberliner May 2016 #47
Well lets see.... Xolodno May 2016 #48
More countries have diplomatic relations with North Korea than Israel oberliner May 2016 #52
But you are failing to address the gorrilla in the room. Xolodno May 2016 #61
I'm so torn on what has happened in the ME in the last fifty years. WhoWoodaKnew May 2016 #45
as some point isreal needs to learn how to behave dembotoz May 2016 #46
This message was self-deleted by its author trudyco May 2016 #50
I am glad to see someone of Barak's stature speak out so forcefully. Nitram May 2016 #58
Thats what they get making 'cozy' with republicans. Is. citizens don't take those new home easy-in, Sunlei May 2016 #60
Unfortunately there are some true statements that Americans aren't ready to hear (nt) Recursion May 2016 #67

pmorlan1

(2,096 posts)
2. Scary Times
Sat May 21, 2016, 11:07 PM
May 2016

Let's review those AIPAC speeches by Clinton & Trump and the non-AIPAC speech by Bernie.

I wonder if this news will be covered by our corporate news?

 
4. Someone tries to stab you to death on the street, but you have a gun
Sun May 22, 2016, 12:05 AM
May 2016

Do you use it? Or do you let yourself be stabbed to death? This is the position Israel finds itself in!

 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
14. That's not it at all, and I'd bet you know that.
Sun May 22, 2016, 01:56 AM
May 2016

Everyone who tosses out analogies like that leaves out the rather signifigant element of the planning commisions that decide which chunk of land currently serving as the home for hundreds of non-Jewish people is next up to be bulldozed through, its residents evicted, then built up again as fortified compounds where Jewish 'settlers' will now live, armed and supported by the IDF.

Regardles of one's perspective on 'good guys' or 'bad guys' under the current circumstances of military occupation of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, that is fundamentally wrong, and leads to a descent into brutality for those carrying it out.

A former head of Mossad has said the same thing, and it may be that a tipping point has been reached among a further number of people who command respect among many Israelis.

 
16. I would complete endorse the idea of a contiguous Palestinian State
Sun May 22, 2016, 02:12 AM
May 2016

(Except for East Jerusalem, of course.) That is, if I knew that Israel would be secure. But that would require the Israel-haters in the region to actually acknowledge the country's RIGHT TO SIMPLY EXIST, which you and I both know they are not going to do!

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
32. The Palestinians recognized Israel's Right to Exist on September 9 1993
Sun May 22, 2016, 11:39 AM
May 2016

Bibi says that's not good enough the Palestinians must recognize Israel as the Jewish State

September 9, 1993
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
Mr. Prime Minister,
The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era...I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security. The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338. The PLO commits itself...to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations...the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators...the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.
Sincerely,
Yasser Arafat.
Chairman: The Palestine Liberation Organization.


September 9, 1993
Yasser Arafat
Chairman: The Palestine Liberation Organization.
Mr. Chairman,
In response to your letter of September 9, 1993, I wish to confirm to you that, in light of the PLO commitments included in your letter, the Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.
Yitzhak Rabin.
Prime Minister of Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
15. Israel is a fascist, tribalist, supremacist, genocidal-in-intent state, they are NOT our ally, they
Sun May 22, 2016, 02:03 AM
May 2016

are a drain on the USA all around, and actively work to undermine our national interests.

 
18. You think we should stop aiding Israel financially? I agree!
Sun May 22, 2016, 02:19 AM
May 2016

They're not out 51st state, and should not require a "green light" from Uncle Sam to conduct their foreign policy. Cut the cord and set them free!

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
30. Supremacist:
Sun May 22, 2016, 10:01 AM
May 2016

"relating to or advocating the supremacy of a particular group."

In the Jewish State, this particular group is legally comprised of members of a particular ethnoreligious group.

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
42. Netanyahu appoints Ayelet Shaked—who called for genocide of Palestinians—as Justice Minister in new
Sun May 22, 2016, 04:09 PM
May 2016

government.

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-palestinians-government/#sthash.XpmFi38I.dpuf


Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu decided to appoint Ayelet Shaked as justice minister in his fourth government. Shaked is a Member of Knesset (MK) representing the far-right HaBayit HaYehudi (“Jewish Home”) party. She is known for her extreme, ultranationalist views.
During Israel’s summer 2014 attack on Gaza, MK Shaked essentially called for the genocide of Palestinians. In a Facebook post on July 1—a day before Israeli extremists kidnapped Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khdeir and burned him alive—the lawmaker asserted that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and called for its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.”

Her post consisted of an excerpt from an article by Uri Elitzur, the late right-wing journalist and leader of the Israeli settler movement, which seeks to colonize Palestinian land in contravention of international law. Elitzur also served as a speechwriter and advisor to Netanyahu.

snip



Holocaust survivors and their descendants accuse Israel of ‘genocide’

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/holocaust-survivors-and-their-descendants-accuse-israel-of-genocide-9687994.html

Dozens of Holocaust survivors, together with hundreds of descendants of Holocaust survivors and victims, have accused Israel of “genocide” for the deaths of more than 2,000 Palestinians in Gaza since the conflict erupted in July.

In an open letter released by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network and published as an advert in The New York Times, the group calls for a full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel over its “wholesale effort to destroy Gaza”.

“Genocide begins with the silence of the world,” the statement reads, “We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people.”

The statement also condemns the United States for its financial and diplomatic support of Israel.

The signatories express alarm at “the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever pitch.”


snip



Genocide in Gaza

https://electronicintifada.net/content/genocide-gaza/6397

A genocide is taking place in Gaza. This morning, 2 September, another three citizens of Gaza were killed and a whole family wounded in Beit Hanoun. This is the morning reap, before the end of day many more will be massacred. An average of eight Palestinian die daily in the Israeli attacks on the Strip. Most of them are children. Hundreds are maimed, wounded and paralyzed.

The Israeli leadership is at a loss of what to do with the Gaza Strip. It has vague ideas about the West Bank. The current government assumes that the West Bank, unlike the Strip, is an open space, at least on its eastern side. Hence if Israel, under the ingathering program of the government, annexes the parts it covets — half of the West Bank — and cleanses it of its native population, the other half would naturally lean towards Jordan, at least for a while and would not concern Israel. This is a fallacy, but nonetheless it won the enthusiastic vote of most of the Jews in the country. Such an arrangement can not work in the Gaza enclave — Egypt unlike Jordan has succeeded in persuading the Israelis, already in 1948, that the Gaza Strip for them is a liability and will never form part of Egypt. So a million and half Palestinians are stuck inside Israel — although geographically the Strip is located on the margins of the state, psychologically it lies in its midst.

The inhuman living conditions in the most dense area in the world, and one of the poorest human spaces in the northern hemisphere, disables the people who live it to reconcile with the imprisonment Israel had imposed on them ever since 1967. There were relative better periods where movement to the West Bank and into Israel for work was allowed, but these better times are gone. Harsher realities are in place ever since 1987. Some access to the outside world was allowed as long as there were Jewish settlers in the Strip, but once they were removed the Strip was hermetically closed. Ironically, most Israelis, according to recent polls, look at Gaza as an independent Palestinian state that Israel has graciously allowed to emerge. The leadership, and particularly the army, see it as a prison with the most dangerous community of inmates, which has to be eliminated one way or another.

The conventional Israeli policies of ethnic cleansing employed successfully in 1948 against half of Palestine’s population, and against hundred of thousand of Palestinians in the West Bank are not useful here. You can slowly transfer Palestinians out of the West Bank, and particular out of the Greater Jerusalem area, but you can not do it in the Gaza Strip - once you sealed it as a maximum-security prison camp.


snip


Is Israel Committing a Genocide against the Palestinians of Gaza?

http://www.juancole.com/2014/08/committing-genocide-palestinians.html

Yes, Israel is committing genocide.

What we are witnessing now is the extension of the program of national erasure against the Palestinians that the Zionist project has always entailed, at times overtly, but more often covertly.


As defined by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2, it consists of “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:”

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The law protects national groups such as the Palestinians when they are targeted “as such,” i.e. for being Palestinians. Scholars note that “The ‘in whole or in part’ means that there is no lower limit to the number of people on which these acts may be committed. It is genocide even any of the Acts (a)-(e) are on one person with the intent described.” That is, it is not necessary that large numbers of persons be killed for a policy to qualify as a violation of this convention, though in the present Gaza campaign alone one in a thousand residents of Gaza has been killed by the Israeli military (the equivalent of killing 310,000 Americans). The Israeli military deliberately knocked out the Gaza Strip’s only electricity plant, making it impossible for water purification plants to operate and so depriving most Palestinians of potable water. Infants and toddlers are at special risk of mortality from dirty water. The conditions of life imposed on the people of Gaza are indisputably causing serious mental and bodily harm.
Ordinarily the Israeli campaign against the Palestinians is creeping and deliberate, involving processes of detention, and restriction: the abject denial of basic human rights and dignities that is integral to political and military occupation. It is “incremental genocide” (to borrow a phrase from the scholar Ilan Pappe).

Israeli action against the Palestinians is slow out of political necessity; since World War II the world will typically not tolerate the attempt by one ethnic/national group to eliminate another (indeed on several occasions more powerful states have intervened militarily to attack those attempting to erase another people).

But there are moments when the Zionist program against the Palestinian people involves a barrage of intensity and barbarity during which the complete scope of the nature of Israeli policy is unleashed full force. Israeli civil society is complicit in this ferocious drive as well. In addition to the horror of the current political and military assault against Gaza, groups of violent Israelis have been captured on video parading around Jerusalem and other cities chanting “Death to Arabs.” In one particularly disturbing scene, a splinter group of 3 to 5 youths backed by a larger hostile faction set up a makeshift road block in west Jerusalem, stopping cars to inquire of the driver “Are you Jewish?” None dare answer in the negative; a horrific fate could await those who might answer “no.”


These same radical groups (Im Tirtzu, among others) venerate Baruch Goldstein, the slaughterer of men, women, and children in the Ibrahimi Mosque in Hebron in February of 1994, honoring him with parties, street signs, and graffiti telling the world that “Dr. Goldstein was right” (Goldstein was a physician from New York).


snip




UN report details Israel's genocidal war crimes against Palestine during 2014 summer assault

https://www.sott.net/article/298277-UN-report-details-Israels-genocidal-war-crimes-against-Palestine-during-2014-summer-assault

There can be no surprise that the UN Human Rights Council's independent investigation of Israel's assault on Gaza last summer found evidence of massive and systematic war crimes.

Its report, published Monday in Geneva, says investigators were "able to gather substantial information pointing to serious violations of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by Israel and by Palestinian armed groups."

"The extent of the devastation and human suffering in Gaza was unprecedented and will impact generations to come," the chair of the investigation commission, Justice Mary McGowan Davis told media, adding that "there is also ongoing fear in Israel among communities who come under regular threat."

Despite the "balanced" language that is now the habitual refuge of international officials hoping to avoid false accusations of anti-Israel bias, the evidence shows that the scale and impact of Israeli violence dwarfs anything allegedly done by Palestinians.

Israel systematically targeted Palestinian residential buildings and infrastructure without any apparent military justification. The horror of what Israel did, detailed in the 183-page report, cannot be adequately summarized here.

In total, 2,251 Palestinians were killed, including 1,462 Palestinian civilians, among them 551 children, the report states. More than 11,000 Palestinians, including 3,540 women and 3,436 children, were injured with almost 10 percent suffering permanent disabilities.

Six civilians died in Israel and more than 60 Israeli soldiers died in fighting with the Palestinian resistance.

But a key finding is that the mass destruction and killing inflicted by Israel, often amounting to war crimes, "may have constituted military tactics reflective of a broader policy, approved at least tacitly by decision-makers at the highest levels of the Government of Israel."


snip


TIMES OF ISRAEL PULLS ANOTHER ARTICLE CALLING FOR GENOCIDE AGAINST PALESTINIANS (SCREENSHOTS)

http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/times-of-israel-pulls-another-article-calling-for-genocide-1

The Times of Israel accidentally allowed its bigotry to hang out (again!) when it allowed a blog advocating for the extermination of the Palestinian people to be published. The backlash to the post has been quite severe — so severe that the person whose name was attached to the piece has spoken out, completely dismissing any association with the Times of Israel or the article in question.

“Jewish divine law makes it very clear: the ‘Palestinians’ not only have no right to any land, but the ‘Palestinians’ are not even human beings and thus have no right to even live at all,” read the piece, which was allegedly penned by Josh Bornstein, the president of an Australia-based Jewish advocacy group.

The author, describing Palestinians as “worthless subhuman beasts and vermin.” explained that, by even acknowledging “Palestinian land,” Netanyahu betrayed Israel:

Any Jew who speaks of “Palestinian land” clearly has a very deep misunderstanding of Jewish law. The Talmud makes it very clear that all land belongs to Jews, and that Jews may seize any land that they so desire. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: “All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples.” This is directly from the Talmud. Why, then, should the “Palestinians” be entitled to any land? Why should they even be allowed to exist?

“Bornstein” advocated a FINAL solution for the Palestinian ‘problem':

The thing to be done about the ‘Palestinians’ is to KILL them, exterminate them, get rid of the. How do we deal with cockroaches? We don’t argue or debate with them. We exterminate them.


http://12160.info/profiles/blogs/times-of-israel-pulls-another-article-calling-for-genocide-1


 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
53. Thanks for your response and for sharing those links
Mon May 23, 2016, 08:15 AM
May 2016

It gives a good sense of where you are coming from.

If you are open to considering another perspective, let me know.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
51. Ethnic cleansing is really just a soft soap term for genocide.
Sun May 22, 2016, 10:10 PM
May 2016

Slow motion ethnic cleansing is what has happened in Israel and the territories it has annexed.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
54. That is preposterous
Mon May 23, 2016, 08:16 AM
May 2016

Genocide has a specific meaning. Nothing resembling it is happening in Israel or the occupied territories.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
57. The forcible driving out of specific ethnic or religious groups is ethnic cleansing.
Mon May 23, 2016, 09:54 AM
May 2016

Ethnic cleansing is categorized as a "genocidal act". Look it up. You can start with the interpretation of the UN Convention: http://www.un.org/ar/preventgenocide/adviser/pdf/osapg_analysis_framework.pdf.

6. Genocidal acts Issues to be analyzed here include:
· Acts that could be obvious “elements” of the crime of genocide as defined in
Article 6 of the Rome Statute,4 such as killings, abduction and disappearances,
torture, rape and sexual violence; ‘ethnic cleansing’ or pogroms;5
· Less obvious methods of destruction, such as the deliberate deprivation of
resources needed for the group’s physical survival and which are available to the
rest of the population, such as clean water, food and medical services;6
· Creation of circumstances that could lead to a slow death, such as lack of proper
housing, clothing and hygiene or excessive work or physical exertion;
· Programs intended to prevent procreation, including involuntary sterilization,
forced abortion, prohibition of marriage and long-term separation of men and
women;
· Forcible transfer of children, imposed by direct force or through fear of violence,
duress, detention, psychological oppression or other methods of coercion;
· Death threats or ill treatment that causes disfigurement or injury; forced or coerced
use of drugs or other treatment that damages health.

duplex

(32 posts)
41. Ridiculous
Sun May 22, 2016, 03:56 PM
May 2016

Isreal is the lone democracy in the middle east and has been attacked incessantly since it was created from the British mandate after WW2. Jewish voters in the US provide huge financial and vote backing to our Democratic party and these kinds of smear articles in our media are of no help in ensuring they continue to support us. If I was a jew in America and had familiy in Isreal, I would certainly think twice about supporting a party that continues to conflate them with Hilter and every other ugly person from history. This type of journalism is shameful.

 

AntiBank

(1,339 posts)
43. sorry, not buying your stale, tired defence of a this savage, tribal hate state
Sun May 22, 2016, 04:16 PM
May 2016

They are not an ally, they are an extraordinary encumbrance upon the West at every level, and consistently spy on the USA and destabilise the world asymmetrically.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
59. And I'm not buying your burning hate
Mon May 23, 2016, 10:07 AM
May 2016

I'm hardly a defender of the occupation or this horrendous and dangerous government, but you are so over the top and foaming.

padfun

(1,786 posts)
20. Actually I think it is more like this:
Sun May 22, 2016, 03:09 AM
May 2016

You break into someone's house, make yourself at home, lock the former occupant in a room and when former occupant tries to fight you, you scream and then shoot them.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
36. Alternatively....
Sun May 22, 2016, 02:48 PM
May 2016

Fleeing mass extermination, you are forced to leave your home and are told that you can live in safety in a new location. The powers that be suggest that you divide up the new land with the people who are already living there, but they don't like the idea and want you to leave, so you fight with them continuously for the next sixty years.

Orrex

(63,215 posts)
24. Ask that question another way:
Sun May 22, 2016, 07:14 AM
May 2016

Someone destroys your neighborhood with an airstrike, killing women, children and the elderly indiscriminately, but you have a knife.

Do you use it? Or do you stand quietly while your fellow civilians are slaughtered by a besieging military power with impunity?

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
27. That's like saying that after I destroy
Sun May 22, 2016, 09:24 AM
May 2016

you home, steal your land and kill your family that when you try to stab me, I shoot you in self-defense because that's the position I find myself in.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
37. No it's not
Sun May 22, 2016, 02:49 PM
May 2016

It's like saying killing civilians is wrong, no matter the circumstance.

According to your theory, Native Americans ought to be stabbing US citizens en masse.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
39. Native Americans are US citizens.
Sun May 22, 2016, 03:16 PM
May 2016

This is the second fallacy you've posited in defense of your position. Just because someone committed a crime in the past is not a precedent for someone else committing it in the present.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
56. Palestinian citizens of Israel have been doing the stabbing
Mon May 23, 2016, 08:18 AM
May 2016

They are, of course, Israeli citizens.

Killing civilians is wrong. That anyone on a progressive board can argue otherwise is alarming.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
63. Actually, the overwhelming majority of these stabbings
Mon May 23, 2016, 06:58 PM
May 2016

have been committed by occupied Palestinians living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, most of whom are not Israeli citizens.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
64. Palestinian detained after alleged stab attack injures Israeli near Tel Aviv
Mon May 23, 2016, 10:08 PM
May 2016

BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- A Palestinian woman was detained by an Israeli security guard following an alleged stab attack which left an Israeli woman lightly injured in the city of Rosh Haayin east of Tel Aviv Sunday, Israeli police said.
According to a statement from Israeli police spokesperson Luba al-Samri, the security guard heard screaming and saw a Palestinian woman holding a knife and attempting to stab an Israeli woman.
The guard rushed to apprehend the suspect with a help of two local Israelis, who took two knives from the suspect and detained her without firing any shots. The woman reportedly had one knife in her hand and a second knife in her handbag, the statement read.
Al-Samri later identified the female suspect as a 23-year-old Palestinian citizen of Israel from the Palestinian-majority city of Qafr Qassem about 20 kilometers east of Tel Aviv.

https://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=770970

A Palestinian citizen of Israel allegedly stabbed and injured four Israelis in Hadera, a coastal city in the country's north, on Sunday.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/palestinian-teen-killed-clashes-rage-west-bank-151011143250761.html

They followed weeks of violence in Jerusalem that spiraled out to Arab towns in northern Israel, where on Friday night the police killed a Palestinian citizen of Israel wielding a knife.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/11/world/middleeast/palestinian-stabs-israeli-soldier-at-tel-aviv-train-station.html?_r=0


 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
71. That point is taken
Tue May 24, 2016, 08:20 AM
May 2016

My points are:

1. Some of the stabbers have been Israeli citizens.

2. Stabbing civilians is never acceptable.

 

anigbrowl

(13,889 posts)
66. An interesting false choice you present there
Mon May 23, 2016, 10:20 PM
May 2016

Many of us disagree that Israel faces the existential threat implied by your claim of someone attempting to stab you to death. Really, this metaphor could have been lifted right out of Der Sturmer by the simple substitution of 'Germany' for 'Israel'.

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
72. more like someone stabs you on their street so you use that as an excuse to bomb their block
Tue May 24, 2016, 02:06 PM
May 2016

and move into their house.

silverweb

(16,402 posts)
5. Israel has become what it hated.
Sun May 22, 2016, 12:07 AM
May 2016

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]Yet we support them and are only marginally better.

glinda

(14,807 posts)
8. Remember all those trips Conservatives took on the side to Israel?
Sun May 22, 2016, 12:40 AM
May 2016

I think this has been nurtured for quite some time. My heart goes out to the Palestinians suffering.

Peace Patriot

(24,010 posts)
12. I think we are equally in danger from Clinton who has ROBERT KAGAN as a advisor!
Sun May 22, 2016, 01:49 AM
May 2016

Robert Kagan, chief Neo-Con, architect of Cheney-Rumsfeld's blueprint for military occupation of the ME (and its oil) and world domination, "The Project for a New American Century" (PNAC).

Not to mention Clinton's close friendship with Henry Fucking Kissinger!

Trump is an unknown, other than on the campaign trail. He shoots his mouth off but who knows what he will do? In some ways, he seems like an old-time Republican "isolationist" (wall off the country, avoid foreign entanglements, "the business of America is business"--a stupid policy these days, but I think those are his ad hoc instincts.) However, I tend to think Trump is a designer candidate--designed as foil to Clinton, to make her look "liberal" as she shoots down his racist and sexist comments, with the Neo-Cons lurking in the background, planning to ride Clinton back into the White House. She is a hawk--pushed the most hawkish policies on Obama, for instance the disastrous overthrow of Gaddaffi in Libya. She wants to keep punishing Iran rather than working out a nuke deal with them so we can all deal with the IS clusterfuck (in Washington DC, Libya is called "Hillary's War&quot .

There is a REASON that the Corrupt Media CREATED "Trump the candidate" out of nothing, by GIVING him billions of dollars in FREE political ads, with 24/7 coverage of his every sneeze since the day he announced. WHY did they do this?

trudyco

(1,258 posts)
49. Yes. Good post. Thanks for sharing!
Sun May 22, 2016, 09:07 PM
May 2016

He's a foil and this week there was a push to show how misogynist and racist (particularly for af-am) he is... pushing people to vote for the woman candidate. Trying for that fear factor.

I'd love to see his taxes. Is he really a billionaire? Did he get a little help from somewhere for the campaign?

 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
10. Powerful stuff. They aren't the first high-level former Israeli officials to stand up against Likud
Sun May 22, 2016, 01:36 AM
May 2016

and its current extremist governing coalition partners, but this is the most vigorous salvo I've seen in a very, very long time. Damn - if Israel could really shake itself loose from the settlement tail that's wagging the dog, there might just be a chance for at least a marginally just peace and a real future as a responsible nation among nations. Sounds like something's beginning...

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
11. From Jonathan Freedland's opinion piece in The Guardian.
Sun May 22, 2016, 01:48 AM
May 2016
Make no mistake, Ya’alon is no peacenik. He is a hawk, fully signed up to Likud intransigence and a favourite of the settlers. But he is also a former soldier who holds fast to a military ethos that believes might has to be constrained by the rule of law. Twice in recent weeks, this insistence on ethics put Ya’alon at odds with the prime minister.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/israel-turned-right-netanyahu-brutal-reshuffle-obama-last-push

Kablooie

(18,634 posts)
17. Seems like extremists are at the battlements of just about every country right now.
Sun May 22, 2016, 02:16 AM
May 2016

Including ours.
Sooner or later some of them will break through and gain control and then the fun really starts.

 
19. and how do U.S. politicians stand on Israel?
Sun May 22, 2016, 02:22 AM
May 2016

If Israeli leaders are concerned with the direction of their country, shouldn't we be at least as worried? I know Bernie is but Hillary's another story. Her embrace of Netanyahu must be considered a clear sign of how she will conduct foreign policy...and it will not be to ease American aggressiveness overseas. It also casts a dim light on her commitment to progressive policies at home, from how to handle the rise of a police state to expanding social security, climate change and the fossil fuel industry to taking on economic inequality and the preservation of democracy. I expect many people will vote for her as a "lesser evil" in the general election, but somehow that doesn't cheer me very much. A president Clinton has happened to this country before, and this one could well be his superior. That is not a good thing.

 

silvershadow

(10,336 posts)
22. They are out of control, and have been for some time. It's worked for them, so well, it appears
Sun May 22, 2016, 04:47 AM
May 2016

the Republicans are fixing to try it on for size.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
26. It has worked for them...
Sun May 22, 2016, 09:05 AM
May 2016

because anyone who says anything against Israel gets slapped with the anti-Semite label.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
28. I suppose there comes a time
Sun May 22, 2016, 09:37 AM
May 2016

when if standing up for human rights labels you an anti-Semite, then you must either ignore that slander or be silent.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
38. No one labels anyone an anti-semite for standing up for human rights
Sun May 22, 2016, 02:50 PM
May 2016

Only for denigrating Jewish people.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
40. Well, in many Zionist circles the Jewish people
Sun May 22, 2016, 03:28 PM
May 2016

are considered inseparable from the Jewish state. Therefore, any criticism or resistance to Israeli policy towards Palestinians is considered denigrating to the Jewish people and hence anti-Semitic.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
55. That's not true
Mon May 23, 2016, 08:17 AM
May 2016

Israeli policy is vigorously criticized across the Jewish world and, especially, among those living in Israel.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
62. That's what I said. Most Jews are not Zionists.
Mon May 23, 2016, 06:49 PM
May 2016

Most Jews are not colonialists. Many Zionists are Jewish supremacists. Right now, they run the Israeli government. Even a cursory study of the subject makes that perfectly clear.

lark

(23,105 posts)
31. Sadly, the same thing will be happening in America, if Trump wins.
Sun May 22, 2016, 10:37 AM
May 2016

We are fighting against this mightily, but the greed fascist rich have most of the $$ and have gotten the laws on their side and against the greater good, like only letting certain people vote by implementing restrictive voting laws. TPP, totally fascist, and the gun laws are just to make it easier to kill ourselves and others, well that and profits of course are the drivers.

seafan

(9,387 posts)
33. 'Netanyahu replies to Officers’ charges of Fascism, makes far Right Avigdor Lieberman their boss'
Sun May 22, 2016, 01:14 PM
May 2016

Juan Cole reported on Friday:


Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu bolstered his majority and rid himself of a troublesome voice of conscience Thursday by appointing the extremist Avigdor Lieberman minister of defense. This move strengthened Netanyahu’s hand politically, removing a critic in the form of Moshe Yaalon, the previous minister of defense. But it also sent a signal to Israel’s officer corps, which has been showing distinct unease at Netanyahu’s march of the country into Mussolini territory.

Part of the dispute is over the cold-blooded murder allegedly committed by a 19-year-old Israeli soldier with an extremist background, who was caught on camera killing an incapacitated Palestinian assailant, Abd al-Fattah Yusri al-Sharif. Sharif had committed a knife attack before being incapacitated and searched. The video showed Azarya rushing back over, shouting angrily, and shooting the prostrate twenty-one year old in the head.

The Israeli officer corps insisted that Azarya be tried for manslaughter, apparently over the objections of Netanyahu, who called the soldier’s parents and expressed sympathy for him. The far, far-right Lieberman led a virulent campaign on behalf of Azarya.

This incident, and the extremist Israeli attacks on Palestinians, so alarmed deputy chief of staff 3Maj. Gen. Yair Golan that he went so far as to liken the “sickening” processes he saw taking place in Israel to Nazi Germany in the 1930s (note: not the 1940s, when the Holocaust took place).

Netanyahu rebuked the general, but Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon backed him. He gave his own speech in which he said that Israelis must comprehend the limits of power and “meticulously safeguard our purity of arms and our humanity, not lose our heads, … eradicate racism, violence, verbal and physical attacks on women and exclusion of the other.”

Netanyahu has now replaced Yaalon (a man of the right himself) with Avigdor Lieberman, who has been accused of racism. Lieberman once talked about destroying the Aswan Dam and sweeping 80 million Egyptians into the Mediterranean. He is in favor of expelling Palestinian-Israelis from Israel and taking away their citizenship unless they swear fealty to a Jewish state. He has been shadowed for years by corruption allegations, which even went to trial inconclusively. Lieberman, who wants to move around millions of Palestinians whose families have been living in the area from time immemorial, is a fairly recent immigrant from Moldova. In his youth, there, he worked as bouncer in a club.

This is no ordinary cabinet reshuffle. It is another step taken by the Israeli leadership into the dark side, as even its top generals recognize. Putting the civilian Lieberman, who has no particular military experience, over people like Gen. Golan as their boss sends the signal that the officer corps is to sit down and shut up, and let Netanyahu continue to move Israeli politics in the Mussolini direction.

Israeli journalists are fearful of criticizing Netanyahu. Rivals have accused him of trying to control the media. Human and civil rights in Israel and especially in the Occupied Territories where millions of Palestinians live, stateless, under Israeli military rule or under siege, and worsening by the month.



Here is a detailed, historical piece from Morgan Strong from 2010, documenting how all of this destruction has unfolded over the years, and continues unresolved, today.

From the Archive: A century ago, the British-French Sykes-Picot deal carved up the Mideast, setting in motion conflicts made more complicated when Israel emerged and mastered American politics, as Morgan Strong described in 2010.


How Israel Out-Foxed US Presidents

At the end of a news conference on April 13, 2010, President Barack Obama made the seemingly obvious point that the continuing Middle East conflict pitting Israel against its Arab neighbors will end up “costing us significantly in terms of both blood and treasure.”

Obama’s remark followed a similar statement in congressional testimony by Gen. David Petraeus on March 16, linking the unresolved Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the challenges that U.S. troops face in the region.


Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu speaking to a joint session of the U.S. Congress on March 3, 2015, in opposition to President Barack Obama's nuclear agreement with Iran. (Screen shot from CNN broadcast)


“The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel,” Petraeus said in prepared testimony. “Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the [region] and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support.”

.....

Yet, the truth behind the assessments from Obama and Petraeus is self-evident to anyone who has spent time observing the Middle East for the past six decades. Even the staunchly pro-Israeli Bush administration made similar observations.

In 2007 in Jerusalem, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice termed the Israeli/Palestinian peace process of “strategic interest” to the United States and expressed empathy for the beleaguered Palestinian people. “The prolonged experience of deprivation and humiliation can radicalize even normal people,” Rice said, referring to acts of Palestinian violence.

But the statements by Obama and Petraeus aroused alarm among some Israeli supporters who reject any suggestion that Israel’s harsh treatment of Palestinians might be a factor in the anti-Americanism surging through the Islamic world.

After Petraeus’s comment, the pro-Israeli Anti-Defamation League said linking the Palestinian plight and Muslim anger was “dangerous and counterproductive.”

“Gen. Petraeus has simply erred in linking the challenges faced by the U.S. and coalition forces in the region to a solution of the Israeli-Arab conflict, and blaming extremist activities on the absence of peace and the perceived U.S. favoritism for Israel,” ADL national director Abraham Foxman said.

However, the U.S. government’s widespread (though often unstated) recognition of the truth behind the assessment in Petraeus’s testimony has colored how the Obama administration has reacted to the intransigence of Israel’s Likud government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

The U.S. government realizes how much it has done on Israel’s behalf, even to the extent of making Americans the targets of Islamic terrorism such as the 9/11 attacks (as the 9/11 Commission discovered but played down) and sacrificing the lives of thousands of U.S. troops fighting in Middle East conflicts.

That was the backdrop in March 2009 for President Obama’s outrage over the decision of the Netanyahu government to continue building Jewish housing in Arab East Jerusalem despite the fact that the move complicated U.S. peace initiatives and was announced as Vice President Joe Biden arrived to reaffirm American support for Israel.

However, another little-acknowledged truth about the U.S.-Israeli relationship is that Israeli leaders have frequently manipulated and misled American presidents out of a confidence that U.S. politicians deeply fear the political fallout from any public battle with Israel.

Given that history, few analysts who have followed the arc of U.S.-Israeli relations since Israel’s founding in 1948 believe that the Israeli government is likely to retreat very much in its confrontation with President Obama. (Now, nearly seven years into Obama’s presidency after Netanyahu’s persistent obstruction of Palestinian peace talks and his steady expansion of Jewish settlements that assessment has proved out.)



Still, Obama has shied away from publicly challenging Israel on some of its most sensitive issues, such as its undeclared nuclear-weapons arsenal. Like presidents back to Nixon, Obama has participated in the charade of “ambiguity.” Even as he demanded “transparency” from other countries, Obama continued to dance around questions regarding whether Israel has nuclear weapons.

Netanyahu and Israel surely have vulnerabilities. Without America’s military, diplomatic and economic support, Israel could not exist in its present form. One-quarter of Israeli wage incomes are derived from American aid money, German reparations and various charities. Without that outside assistance, Israel’s standard of living would sink dramatically.

According to the Congressional Research Service, Israel receives $2.4 billion a year in U.S. government grants, military assistance, loan guarantees, and sundry other sources. The United States also pays Egypt another $2 billion to keep the peace with Israel. The combined assistance to both countries comprises nearly one half of all U.S. foreign aid assistance worldwide.

In a sense, Israel can’t be blamed for standing up for itself, especially given the long history of brutality and oppression directed against Jews. However, Israeli leaders have used this tragic history to justify their own harsh treatment of others, especially the Palestinians, many of whom were uprooted from their ancestral homes.

Over the past six decades, Israeli leaders also have refined their strategies for taking advantage of their staunchest ally, the United States. Today, with many powerful friends inside the United States and with Obama facing intense political pressure over his domestic and national security policies the Israeli government has plenty of reasons to believe that it can out-fox and outlast the current U.S. president as it did many of his predecessors.



When taken with the emergence of this news over the weekend:

Israel is “infected by the seeds of fascism” and has been taken over by “extremists,” warn ex-prime minister and defense ministers Salon, May 21, 2016


The explosion of harsh, hard-line conservatism is a threat to the world.


More examples from current news reports:

In Austria.

In Brazil.

In Argentina.


One of these candidates will not veer from the current path we are witnessing.




We The People must exercise our choice in six months.




libodem

(19,288 posts)
44. It's one of those things
Sun May 22, 2016, 04:25 PM
May 2016

That you can.feel but not articulate because it makes one sound antisemitic. Israel is considered above reproach because the Jewish people have endured so much abuse.
But now that Israel behaves in an undemocratic and fascist way, we should look the other way while they abuse the Palestinians.



 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
47. Israel is considered above reproach?
Sun May 22, 2016, 05:24 PM
May 2016

They are the most criticized country in the world. The UN Human Rights Council spends way more time on them then on any of the many many countries with much more serious human rights issues to address (some of whom have sat on said council).

Over thirty UN member states don't even recognize that Israel exists.

Xolodno

(6,395 posts)
48. Well lets see....
Sun May 22, 2016, 05:45 PM
May 2016

Russia annexes Crimea, starts a civil war in eastern Ukraine: Bam! Sanctions

North Korea: Lots of Sanctions

China: Plenty of criticism on its human rights violations.

Cuba: So how long have we had sanctions on them?

Iran: Only now are sanctions being eased.

Saudi Arabia: Every nation on the planet says "I didn't see anything"....because, you know oil.

Egypt: Lots of criticism there.

Shall I go on?

Oh as for Israel, No Sanctions (except the BDS and even then, some places have made that illegal...imagine that, free speech being made illegal), they get aid from the US, they have occupied land that isn't theirs for over half a century, every resolution to censure Israel gets vetoed by the UN Security Council, laws are applied differently to Palestinians than Israeli citizens, etc. And they are supposed to be the "model" democracy in the Mid East....go figure.

Oh and those 30 UN members not recognizing Israel? A significant chunk of them said they would recognize Israel (and some even work covertly with Israel) if they would only withdraw from the occupied territory (even allowing some caveats) and recognize a Palestinian State.

You're repeating tired and over used talking points. It doesn't fool anyone anymore (unless you are a repub).

Oh and do you have a link on the amount of criticism Israel receives vs. other nations? That's a pretty bold claim to make, when you compare that to China, Iran, Myanmar in the past, South Africa of the past, etc. Or are you just shooting with your emotions?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
52. More countries have diplomatic relations with North Korea than Israel
Mon May 23, 2016, 08:14 AM
May 2016

Since annexing the Crimea, Russia has said that the territory is now part of Russia. Russia has vetoed the only resolution in the UN Security Council relating to this matter. Since 2014 there has been virtually no discussion of this topic in the UN, nor any resolution passed on the subject.

More countries have chosen to recognize and have diplomatic relations with North Korea than Israel. North Korea is a closed dictatorship with one of the most oppressive unelected regimes in the world. Speaking freely about the government results in imprisonment or worse and the majority of the people are being nearly starved to death. The only sanctions imposed on the country are with respect to its nuclear program. They are free to buy and sell oil and other natural resources and trade extensively with China. This is in spite of the fact that they continue to ignore the UN resolutions and regularly launch rockets and expand its nuclear program (at the expense of feeding the people).

China is not subject to any international sanctions, nor any UN approbation of any kind. This is in spite of the fact that they are currently occupying Tibet and have a dismal human rights record. This does not seem to matter to any of the countries of the world, all of which recognize China and trade with it extensively. The PRC is the only representative of China in the UN.

The UN had been calling for the end of the US embargo against Cuba for decades. They have repeatedly passed resolutions condemning the US for such an embargo, most recently in 2015, with 191 countries voting in favor of said resolutions and only two voting against. Resolutions like this have been passed by similar margins for over 20 years.

Iran just held a "Holocaust Cartoon contest" which received entries from cartoonists all over the world, including across Western Europe. An Israeli foundation just offered a UK historian an academic prize, and she declined the prize on political grounds. Iran, like North Korea, has relations with more countries than Israel does. Iranian representatives hold key positions on UN human rights committees that Israeli delegates until recently have not even been permitted to run for.

Saudi Arabia and Egypt, similarly, have diplomatic relations with more countries than Israel does and neither have been subject to any official condemnation or sanction by the United Nations.

If you would like to look at the history of the UN Human Rights Council and how much time it has devoted to Israel vs. how much time it has devoted to other countries, I think you will see the disparity there.

Xolodno

(6,395 posts)
61. But you are failing to address the gorrilla in the room.
Mon May 23, 2016, 01:57 PM
May 2016

For all the abuses, crimes, etc. Israel has not suffered any consequences for them....other than "criticism" in UN and the occasional resolution that gets vetoed. And the question should be, why is Israel getting so much "criticism"?

If you're "Bibi" you say its antisemitism...which is a joke.

Israel's "recognition" issue, well the ball is their own court. Just because a handful of nations don't recognize (and many of those handful are ready to do so) does not mean the criticism isn't legitimate.

Israel has been sliding further and further right, and apologetic's for them are no longer taken seriously.

WhoWoodaKnew

(847 posts)
45. I'm so torn on what has happened in the ME in the last fifty years.
Sun May 22, 2016, 04:33 PM
May 2016

It's not like Israel is gonna just disappear. It's not like countries that hate them are gonna disappear either. I really try to put myself in their situations and there really are no good answers (if you're trying to protect your own interests). It's easy for me to say "just do X" but I don't live there. Just think if we were surrounded by countries/people like ISIS, Iran, etc. or if they were really close to us. Just think if a country held land that we thought was ours and wouldn't budge. Would you think differently if we had suicide bombers as a threat or if Mexico lobbed bombs at us?

I don't think I have the right to tell either side what to do (other than to stop killing). Of course that won't happen either.

dembotoz

(16,808 posts)
46. as some point isreal needs to learn how to behave
Sun May 22, 2016, 04:33 PM
May 2016

yes they have a right to defend themselves
yes they have been our ally for a long time
but it is a mistake to give unilateral support for everything nutty yahoo thinks says or does

Response to cali (Original post)

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
60. Thats what they get making 'cozy' with republicans. Is. citizens don't take those new home easy-in,
Mon May 23, 2016, 11:01 AM
May 2016

mortgages, it's a old American banker-republican scam!

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