Seriously, should 13 year olds be allowed to carry something that LOOKS like a gun, when we seem to have no other way to stop trigger-happy scared police from killing children?

A child has bad judgment. A lot of them have bad judgment at age 13. As a matter of fact, some of the adult cops have bad judgment.

If a 13 year old is truly involved in a "robbery", the society of adults is at fault. Why did he not have a real childhood? Can't we protect them from themselves longer than that?

Would the NRA stand in the way of a law banning BB guns, in Ohio?

Of course, I wasn't robbing people either.

The NRA, the ACLU, and the state Democratic Party had better stand in the way of counterproductive nonsense like a BB gun ban, IMO.

Would be okay to make them all orange or yellow? Ban them for possession by minors except in company of adult?

From the narrative in the news article---which may or may not be true---the boy was being used by one or more adults who robbed someone at fake-gunpoint and then (apparently) handed the BB gun to the 13-year-old to allay suspicion. *If* that's true, and one or more adults knowingly involved a 13-year-old boy as an accessory-after-the-fact to an armed robbery, then they would certainly not be deterred by more BB-gun rules. A law requiring training guns to be bright colors wouldn't have changed anything either, because anyone intending to commit a robbery would simply make it look real with a can of black spray paint. Nor would a total ban on BB guns and/or Airsoft guns (which are legal even in extreme gun-control states like England, Australia, and Japan, FWIW) have changed anything, since the adults in this story could just as well have used a water gun painted black, or a rubber training replica painted black.

The killing of 12-year-old Tamir Rice for holding an Airsoft plastic-pellet gun a while back involved a 911 dispatcher who didn't pass all the information they had to the police (the dispatcher was told that Rice's "gun" was likely a toy, but didn't tell the responding officers), an Airsoft gun that had had the safety-orange muzzle portion painted black or removed to make it look more realistic, and a responding officer who had previously been deemed unfit for duty and shot the child two seconds after showing up. The killing of 22-year-old John Crawford in the sporting goods aisle of Walmart happened because someone else in the store made multiple false 911 calls, telling the police that Crawford was loading the rifle, aiming it at kids, and about to commit mass murder. Two people died because of those false calls, not because Mr. Crawford could legally buy a BB gun.

IMO, this is a primarily a police-training and use-of-force problem, not a fake-gun problem; people have also been wrongly killed for possessing real guns in legal ways, or even shot to death while unarmed. A few months ago, a gun owner and concealed carry license holder named Philando Castile was killed in front of his girlfriend while trying to comply with an officer's orders during a traffic stop; an innocent homeowner named Jose Guerena was shot 22 times in front of his family during a botched SWAT raid after one of the SWAT officers tripped and negligently fired a shot; a carry license holder named Eric Scott was killed a few years ago in the parking lot of a Costco while trying to obey police orders, etc. Nor does being unarmed save you; a 22-year-old New Yorker named Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times and killed several years ago for pulling his wallet out of his pocket in low light, and an unarmed bridegroom in New York City named Sean Bell was shot and killed the night before he was to have been marred, for trying to escape what he thought was an armed robbery (the "criminals" were actually undercover police dressed like gang members). There have even been infants and toddlers blown up by concussion grenades during SWAT raids on the wrong address.

There has been a movement to rein excessive police use of force for years, limit SWAT tactics to specialized situations, etc., and I think the movement toward body cameras for police and improved training standards is a good one that I hope will bear fruit. I do not think that criminalizing 100+ million BB and Airsoft gun owners would do any good at all, though.

After all, they own/carry guns.

I certainly do.

Everyone of those cases caught my attention. Some of them were egregious homicides and others were human mistakes that may have occurred without intent or malice, but they were all tragedies.

The racism in police departments isn't going to end tomorrow, and training will only correct a small portion of these outcomes. I just ask myself, Are there any technology solutions that would help? Laws that would help? Because we need a game changer. Because when a policemen often kill citizens out of misplaced fear, and the citizen was engaged in lawful and reasonable acts, we ought to be able to identify the problems and work toward better outcomes in the future.

I think most people don't realize this, but the cops are likely keenly aware of how heavily armed our citizenry is:


List of countries by estimated number of guns per capita
Rank Country Guns per 100 Residents
1 United States 112.6
2 Serbia 75.6
3 Yemen 54.8
4 Switzerland 45.7

I know a cell phone or a bible or a candy bar can be seen as a threat also...
But BB guns are more commonly mistaken for the real thing (or,used as an excuse)...
This case,Tamir Rice, and the man in the Walmart.

It doesn't make sense to me that there are no consequences for police executive children on the street for carrying a completely legal toy in their hands.

Maybe the toy is inherently defective. (As well as those policemen who provide the "multiple shots.".

"When the officers attempted to arrest the duo, King allegedly pulled out a firearm, triggering one cop to open fire."

I don't buy it. With all the lies the cops tell - they've lost my trust. Who KNOWS what happened? I certainly have no idea as to whether is was "justified" or not.

We want and need police whose integrity is "de rigeur"..police with a strong code of honor, not code of silence.

But we send them out into "war zones" -- at least, that's probably a fair description of Chicago which averages around ten shootings per day including 2 fatalities, heavily concentrated in the same three or four neighborhoods.

America is armed to the teeth, and we pile on top of that millions of lookalike BB guns.

What it does have is about 1,400 criminals (according to the Chicago PD) in a few neighborhoods who have no regard for human life, even the lives of children, and who callously kill over a word or a glance, and a police department that is overworked and stretched thin by decades of incompetent management and politicization, IMO.

If the story is true and there was camera footage to prove it, then I would feel sorrow for all concerned, including the police. If the story is true the officer who fired now lives under an unfair cloud of suspicion about the shooting, and understandably so given all of the cover ups that now have been uncovered due to actual videos. Add that to the knowledge that he or she took the life of a 13 year old who could not have hurt that officer now that, in hindsight, the situation is clear, and that person is living with a heavy double burden. Of course If that story is false than he or she should be prosecuted.

This has "summary execution by police" written all over it

On the other hand, police are to aggressive approaching people trying to escalate them to run away in fear.

IMO, it's like police are trying to "flush" people so they can make an arrest for something, anything.

Given that the corporate media can't usually tell the difference between a BB gun and an Airsoft plastic-pellet-shooter (or doesn't know that there is even a distinction), who knows what the actual non-firearm was in this case.

BB guns are an excellent way to safely teach gun safety/responsibility and marksmanship, and are fun to plink with, but they do require a level of responsibility and degrees of supervision. And they can certainly be confused with real guns from a distance; I've seen both BB guns and Airsofts in "OMG LOOK AT THE ARSENALZ" police press releases.

Doesn't fit with being a robbery suspect, right?

I'm NOT pounding on cops. I'm asking, is this how we want our society to be, forever and ever?

apparently.

I really have no reason to trust their version of what happened.

"KING: After Tyree King’s death, here’s why I don't believe a word police say immediately after they kill someone"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-don-police-kill-article-1.2793583

I am on a cheapo semi smart phone so I can't cut& paste....

paper....dispatch.com , 10tv.com. very limited info on our local university based NPR station. Strikes me as something is odd & limited info is getting out. I live not all that far away from that intersection, & it is pretty rough & raggedy there.

What did they do wrong that their 13 year old thinks it's acceptable to rob people and pull a fake gun on the police? 99% of parents have managed to raise their children in a way that they never do stuff like that. What is wrong and how do we correct it?

Robbing people at gunpoint is just a part of growing up these days. Lil' scamps and their mischievous childhood antics.

1) should we believe this policeman's account?
2) what can society do to prevent this? Should we consider a ban on BB guns? Or a ban on their possession by minors, or in carrying them unboxed on public streets or within city limits?

by learning about the most important factors that influence parenting success. Economic, social, spiritual, and whatever else.

We've already tried a ban on robbing people and on pulling weapons on cops, but that doesn't seem to be working.

Raising a teenager in a tough neighborhood probably sucks, especially if you are a single parent.

Extended families aren't there to help out.

Some people are cut out to be good parents and some aren't. I think I suck at it, actually. Hard headed or brash teen boy might need a firmer set of rules, and I suck at rules because I'm too soft or weak or chaotic. So I didn't know that would be a job requirement and you can't change your mind twelve years into it.

Who steps in to help? Often, no one. Hard to find time for community or reaching out to relatives if you're scraping by. Kids change constantly,go through phases. Solve one problem and it moves on to something else.

Unless they prove it. 0 reason to take their word for it without real evidence.

I have seen these BB guns sold in Walmart. They look so real that I can't believe that they even sell them. You can literally take one of the box (they are not behind the counter) and go through the checkout and rob the place. If they were in the toy department, they would need a red ring on the barrel. But its not sold a toy. Its made to look real and its only $12.
Time for Walmart to take these off the shelf for good. I don't believe any other major retailer sells them so they all must be coming through Walmart.

A little tiny profit in exchange for the occasional lives of children.

This is just one of many on the Dick's Sporting goods website for sale.
Just posting for exposure, it isn't just one retailer selling these things.

Product Information:
The Daisy® Powerline Model 415 Pistol Kit is great for learning the techniques of gripping and shooting a semi-automatic firearm. The air pistol features a 21-shot, built-in magazine with a CO2-powered BB repeater that unloads BBs at a velocity of 500 fps. Its blade and ramp front and fixed open rear sights line up your target with ease. The Powerline air pistol includes 3 CO2 cylinders and 5 targets to get you started.

FEATURES:

•.177 cal. BB pistol with a smooth bore steel barrel
•21-shot built-in BB magazine
•CO2 powered semi-automatic
•Maximum velocity of 500 fps
•Blade and ramp front and fixed open rear sights
•Manual trigger block safety
•Accessory rail
•Molded black checkered grip
•Includes three 12 gram CO2 cylinders and five 5-meter targets
•Caliber: .177 (4.5mm) BB
•Maximum Shooting Distance: 235 yards
•Length: 8.6"
•Weight: .93 lbs.
•Daisy

It's got a replica ejection port, Replica slide action, and a picatinny rail. The article even mentions a laser sight attachment. And you can't tell exactly from this photo, but the muzzle shown looks to be much larger than .177 caliber.

If I had to guess, there's probably a recessed barrel of the correct size in there.

Aren't these supposed to be sold with high color accessories to identify them as non lethal "toys?"

Not sure if an "air gun" such as these qualifies as a toy.

which IIRC are required to have a brightly colored muzzle. The bows that are sold in the sporting-goods section aren't toys, either, and I think you have to be 18 to buy either. The toys are sold in the toy section, not Sporting Goods.

A BB gun isn't a toy; it's a low-pressure .177-caliber target airgun that can be safely used indoors or with a rudimentary backstop, but they are capable of causing injury if misused, or killing small animals. And they aren't marketed to young children; I suspect you have to be 18 to buy one in most places. There is also a difference in target market between a Daisy Red Ryder and a Daisy training clone of your S&W 9mm.

I grew up shooting BB guns, as are my own children. They are also an excellent training tool for adults, which is the whole point of the similarities to the actual firearm (for the one you posted); you can shoot one of these safely in a suburban back yard or even indoors with a pellet trap, whereas you can't do that with your 9mm.

They're not sharp in the hand, but going 200 fps they can put a hole in you but good.

Thanks. Most of us probably don't know that much about BB guns, their types and uses. Certainly I didn't. It's good to know more about it (regardless of one's opinion of what these police did).

Amazing.
As horrified as I am by cops killing kids, the picture you posted shows how "tragic mistake" is at least a plausible interpretation.

Given that the BB gun may have looked just like a real gun, we still have to ask if the 13-year-old in question looked just like an adult? Does it go by height, or what? Are we saying it might be okay for cops to shoot, say, a 10-year-old with a real gun? A six year old? A two year old? There have been rare cases when a very young child got one of his dad's guns and shot another kid with it. What's my point? That cops need training in recognizing whether a person poses a real threat.

If we're honest we also have to ask whether the cop would have shot 13-year-old Tyree King if he had been from a different racial ethnic socioeconomic background.

Another point overlooked in this discussion thread is that the cops did not catch this kid in the act of robbing a place. They "matched the caller's description of the suspects with King . . ."

This is not a gun control question. Cops need training. Better training than they're getting.

Tyree fled with another person (age not mentioned) and the other one was questioned but not arrested.

What does that mean in terms of the robbery accusation?

The age of the other kid was mentioned someplace else I read, and it said he was 19. It also said he admitted that they had been asking people on the street for money. It also said he had not expected his friend to be shot, and quoted him asking why the cops had not just used a taser on Tyree. He sounded pretty shaken up.

called robbery.

Actually shooting someone who pulls a gun on you is called "self defense"

I just don't think any kind of gun should be in kid's hands.

1. BB guns should not be sold as toys, as someone said they're so realistic looking you could simply pull one out and rob a store clerk for a register full of cash.

2. What was this kid doing out at 7:45pm without parental supervision and with a damn bb gun on him?

3. Why were the cops not wearing body cams? With those the incident would have been more transparent.

Just a lot wrong rolled into one incident that really could have been prevented.

Because no video

I swear, sometimes I wonder that putting up video cams on every street might be welcome protection for mothers in some communities.

It is so frustrating and sad to see case after case of young people getting killed and no questions answered.