How we are fighting our asses off to salvage this "Republican health care plan" (ACA) - formerly known as Romneycare, and proposed by the Heritage Foundation 3 decades ago when Hillary was pushing single-payer!

it doesn't appear that Hillary pushed single-payer 3 decades ago.

And don't forget this quote more recently: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-single-payer-health-care-will-never-ever-happen/

Through several iterations, it ended up being a proposal of universal coverage for everyone, but this was a dead-end, too.

This is when she discovered the country wasn't ready for single-payer, universal health care.

Considering the nation picked Hillary over Bernie, and then gave the White House and Congress to "the Republican repeal and replace plan" - as Hillary said, the nation still isn't ready.

... mugging for the cameras, or holding rallies or appearing on Rachel Maddow's opening segment. All the public shouting and scolding and admonitions won't make a bit of difference, will it? When it comes right down to it, it's the FINAL VOTES that count. These two senators are the SMART ONES who are DOING THEIR JOB in the MOST EFFECTIVE WAY to affect the outcome.



(Thanks for sharing this George II!)

A couple of Senators admonishing the Republicans will not change anything if Republican Senators' phones aren't ringing off their hooks. In the end, the reason a number of Republicans are defecting is that they can see they'll have a lot of trouble winning their next election if they vote for this bill.

So I think it is important to hold rallies and appear on Rachel Maddow. The more people learn about this horrible bill, the better.

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"So I think it is important to hold rallies and appear on Rachel Maddow."
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Naaah! Showboating. Grandstanding. Preaching to the choir. Anyone can do that. Anyone can complain and gripe publicly. That's a task that's best left to the partisan pundits and editorialists.

I'm more impressed with these elected politicians who actually get their hands dirty and who are willing to do the hard work... negotiating... lobbying... dealing... convincing... arguing... discussing... making promises and redeeming debts and favors owed.

Even if it's not "glamorous". Even if it's not a task that presents the "instant feedback" of cheering and adoring crowds... this is the WORK that needs to be done. Messages on answering machines and online clicky-clicky petitions aren't enough.

Time is short. At this point, we need more than stump-speeches from politicians. They need to do the WORK they were elected to do. They need to start making sausage, as it were.

I guess that's what DUers come here for. To attack and laugh at other liberals. What a productive use of time.

I don't disagree that the hard work of legislating is more important than showing off on TV. I agree that those who look most impressive on TV are rarely the ones who are actually effective in their job. However, if no Democratic politicians ever appeared on TV, all people would be seeing would be the Republicans, whom the networks are often all too eager to have as guests.

In the end, what is most important is an active base. Politicians don't know that their base is there unless we let them know we're here. They need to know that their constituents are watching. And no amount of LOL's at me is going to change that.

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"7. I'm not sure why you're attacking me when I'm not even disagreeing with you."
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Nobody is "attacking" you. And yes, actually you DID disagree with me, or contradict me.

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YOU, PREVIOUSLY: "So I think it is important to hold rallies and appear on Rachel Maddow."
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That's what you said when I'd expressed my belief that such things were unnecessary and a waste of time... when REAL and meaningful WORK needed to be done

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YOU, LAST POST: "I don't disagree that the hard work of legislating is more impressive than showing off on TV."
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REALLY? If that's true, then why did you previously say this:

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YOU, PREVIOUSLY: "4. The only strategy that is effective is calling one's Senators."
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That's pretty specific wording. You said "ONLY" ... no room for anything else, but ONLY... exclusively... to the exclusion of ALL OTHER STRATEGIES, in your mind (based on what you said to me) was that "ONLY" telephone calls to Senators' answering machines was the most effective strategy.

And now, when challenged on that (or "attacked", to use your word) the tone changes. I'm glad you're open to changing your mind. But the humor I happen to find in your words is scarcely an "attack".



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YOU: "I agree that those who look most impressive on TV are rarely the ones who are actually effective in their job."
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You agree? REALLY?? With *whom* are you agreeing?? NOT WITH ME, because I didn't say that, nor did I suggest that.

For example: Al Franken looks impressive (and sounds impressive) on television. But, then again... he's not ALWAYS on television commenting on every tweet, burp and fart coming from Trump. And he's not always on television attacking liberals and progressives.

In a way, I think that strategy (of "less is more&quot is working out pretty well for him. People aren't so over-exposed to him, the things he has to say aren't PREDICTABLE and REPETITIVE (if you know what I mean).

People aren't as likely to ignore or tune-out Al Franken... and when he speaks, people know he's got something to say that's worth listening to, so they're more inclined to pay attention (instead of rolling their eyes).

Perhaps in the future, athena, we'll find something to actually agree on... but obviously today's not the day.

When you are not bound by fairness and logic, you can win any argument you want, at least in your own mind. You can twist the other person's words in one direction while twisting your own words in another. I never said senators should spend *all* their time on TV and in rallies. And you know that.

As I said before, no amount of mocking and attacking me will change the reality. I will reiterate what I said in my first post to you: Democratic senators talking to Republican senators will achieve nothing if Republican Senators feel that voting for this bill will have no electoral consequences for them. That's the sense in which the *only* thing that is effective is an active base. Without an active base, nothing else matters. The reason the government of this country is so far to the right of the public is that the Democratic Party does not have an active base. We have some excellent Democrats in the Senate and in Congress. If hard work on their part were enough, this country wouldn't be in the process of being destroyed by Republicans. The hardest-working Democrat in the country just lost an election because the Democratic base couldn't be bothered to give her a landslide win.

And congratulations for missing the diplomacy in my post. Well aware that I had just pointed out a flaw in your argument, I said I wasn't disagreeing with you in order to give you an opening to end this gracefully, through agreement. But you had to attack instead. I'm quite familiar from my past professional life with the type of person who, when proven wrong and offered a graceful way out, is too insecure to take it and instead responds with attacks that only grow nastier the more they are shown to be wrong.

Welcome to ignore. I don't have time to argue with people who cannot accept someone politely and diplomatically pointing out a flaw in their reasoning. I reserve my precious time for discussions with people who can argue in a civilized manner.

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"As I said before, no amount of mocking and attacking me will change the reality.
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Nobody is mocking or attacking you. There was no personal attack. Pointing out flaws in your logic and inconsistencies in the things you claim to be true, and challenging arguments that change from one post to the next is NOT a personal attack. Finding humor in the absurdity of it all is NOT a personal attack.

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"And congratulations for missing the diplomacy in my post.
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LOL! What diplomacy?

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"Well aware that I had just pointed out a flaw in your argument,
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No you hadn't. You were merely contradicting me.

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"I said I wasn't disagreeing with you in order to give you an opening to end this gracefully
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LOL! But you WERE disagreeing with me... continuing to claim otherwise is totally incorrect.

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"Welcome to ignore.
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Oh, how charming!

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"I don't have time to argue with people who cannot accept someone politely and diplomatically pointing out a flaw in their reasoning.
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If there had been a flaw, it would be different. But, there was no flaw. Simply being contrary isn't being diplomatic. Denying the meaning of the words you wrote isn't being diplomatic. Changing your arguments from one post to the next... well... I'll just let you imagine what I'm thinking.

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"I reserve my precious time for discussions with people who can argue in a civilized manner.
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In other words... "people who don't challenge you"? Got it!

...accomplishes little if anything.

We're 2 days from a potential vote - Senators need to be lobbying their colleagues at this time.

If not, I'm not sure why you are arguing with my post. I never said holding rallies and giving interviews on TV is more important than the hard work of legislating. I only said it is not a complete waste of time. But nothing will change the fact that what is most important is an active base that makes itself heard. What destroys the left is that we waste too much time attacking each other on the internet, when we could be making ourselves heard in more effective ways. The extreme right never makes that mistake.

...should be in Washington drumming up support for NO votes.

I'm glad my two Senators are doing their job. Thankfully I don't have to call either of them.

You are making a huge mistake -- the standard mistake the Democratic base makes, the reason Democrats never have the sort of power Republicans have. No one who does not make one call to each of his/her representatives every week can complain that the Democratic Party is too centrist or lacks a spine.

** Even if your representatives are liberals, you still have to call them so that they know you exist. Otherwise, all they hear from is the Republican base, which does not make the mistake of thinking their calls won't make a difference. ***

I am so sick and tired of Democrats attacking each other on the internet, while making excuses for not making phone calls. "I don't have to call my representatives because they're reliably liberal!" Or, "I don't have to call my representatives because they're right-wing nutcases!" No matter what they are, you have to call them. And when you call, you have to leave your name and your address so that they know you are someone whose vote matters to them personally.

It's amazing that someone who doesn't realize this basic fact is lecturing me on the internet about how I don't know how politics works.

You should read the following:
https://medium.com/being-liberal/a-simple-way-to-make-your-elected-officials-pay-attention-fa0ec27d2a07
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/contacting-your-congressional-representative_us_582a0965e4b060adb56f8e95
https://www.callmycongress.com

ETA: It was Democrats calling that ensured that the Democratic Party has been so strong recently:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/06/what-calling-congress-achieves
Excerpt:
Perhaps the most striking shift so far, though, has happened on the Democratic side of the aisle, in the form of a swift and dramatic stiffening of the spine. In the past month, at the insistence of constituents, the party line has changed from a cautious willingness to work with the White House to staunch and nearly unified opposition. “If you ask me, before the calls started coming in, someone like Neil Gorsuch”—Trump’s pick for the vacant Supreme Court seat—“would have passed with seventy-one votes,” said one Democratic senator’s chief of staff, who has worked on the Hill for close to twenty years. “Now I’d be surprised if he gets to sixty.” More generally, that staffer noted, the newly galvanized left is suddenly helping to set the Party’s agenda. In thinking about Cabinet nominations, Democratic members of Congress had planned to make their stand over Tom Price, then the nominee for Secretary of Health and Human Services—until their constituents chose Betsy DeVos. “That was not a strategic decision made in Washington,” the staffer said. “That was a very personal decision made by all these people outside the Beltway worrying about their kids. We’re not managing this resistance. We can participate in it, but there’s no chance of us managing it.”

....they also have campaigned for our local candidates in past years.

Clearly you haven't bothered to look at the links I posted. They would have shown you that your assumption that you don't need to make phone calls is wrong. But who needs to read anything when one knows everything already, eh?

The more time I spend on DU, the more I realize how hopeless the political situation is. With the Democratic base so focused on attacking their own, it will be a very long time before this country changes direction.

As for giving interviews on television, sometimes that can be overdone to the point of being counterproductive, after a while people tune him/her out because it's the same old refrain.

Representatives and Senators aren't elected to appear at rallies or on television, they're elected to legislate and do their constituents' business, which is garnering votes that their constituents agree with.

... was pointing out the same things. Weird.

👍

the senate needs to hear from the people now. not after they've passed this monstrosity

Every Democratic Senator should "adopt" a Republican or two. Take them to lunch, like Pence is doing. Talk about their constituents and how this will affect them (and how it could affect their votes). Short of outright bribes, do whatever they can to bring them to sanity. This bill must not pass.

The Senate, more so than the House, is a "cozy" little club. All the Senators know each other and there is surprisingly very little personal discord among them, Democratic and republican. Get one with an opposing opinion aside, talk to him/her on a one-on-one basis, and express the pluses and minuses of the bill (with emphasis on the minuses, of course).

I'd bet there are a dozen republican Senators on the fence, and open to a private logical discussion.

Do you really think they don't know how this will affect their constituents? And do you really think so many Republicans would be voting for this bill if they really thought they would lose their next election because of it?

Democratic senators talking to Republican senators will achieve nothing if Republican senators' phones are not ringing off the hook with calls from constituents vowing to vote against them, campaign against them, and even run against them in the next election if they vote for this bill. It's not too late to call.

https://www.callmycongress.com

and we're focusing on one issue ... not like we have a choice, but we are really cornered

Fighting Strong Against Fascism!

Mahalo, George!

of trying to keep their jobs. personal feelings for
the voters? meh...

obviously have been asleep
for the last..40 years.