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TomCADem

(17,387 posts)
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 02:20 PM Oct 2017

Top House Dem: Trump's power to pardon limited

Source: The Hill

Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.), the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, argued in a Sunday interview that President Trump’s power to pardon is not unlimited, noting the president cannot pardon people in an effort to obstruct justice.

“I don’t think the president’s power is all as, that absolute, as people have been suggesting,” Schiff told ABC’s “This Week.”

“The president cannot pardon people if it’s an effort to obstruct justice, if it’s an effort to prevent Bob Mueller, others, from learning about the president’s own conduct," he added, referencing special counsel Robert Mueller, who's investigating Russia's election interference.
Schiff said Trump’s power to pardon has limits, a comment which comes after CNN reported Friday that the first charges in the probe were authorized by a federal grand jury.

“If it were truly unlimited, it would have the effect of nullifying vast portions of the Constitution,” Schiff added of Trump’s power to pardon, which has become a concern as Mueller’s investigation continues.

Read more: http://thehill.com/homenews/house/357691-schiff-trump-cant-pardon-if-it-obstructs-justice

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Top House Dem: Trump's power to pardon limited (Original Post) TomCADem Oct 2017 OP
I love you Adam Schiff - always the voice of reason & calm Wwcd Oct 2017 #1
New Ground. Democrats are thinking. delisen Oct 2017 #2
A pardoned person 1) Has NO 5th Amdt protection, 2) Admits guilt by accepting it. . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2017 #3
[citation needed] Towlie Oct 2017 #4
Google. 5th is for past crimes. When absolved by pardon there can be no self-incrimination Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2017 #5
Gosh, could you have done that in your initial post? Towlie Oct 2017 #6
Gosh, I assumed it would be self-evident to most readers. My error. Sorry. . nt Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2017 #7
Translation the pardon would really only protect the one pardoned from a crime in the past cstanleytech Oct 2017 #8
Yes, and if they refuse to testify they can be held in prison on contempt until they do. Plus Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2017 #9
As I've said elsewhere, Pardons issued by a president under federal investigation should be indicted ancianita Oct 2017 #10
This is very much like some of his murielm99 Oct 2017 #13
Unfortunately that is is not quite accurate Crash2Parties Oct 2017 #11
Failure to keep the country safe from foreign meddling is a breach of one's oath of office, intended ancianita Oct 2017 #16
I heard on MSNBC (I think it was one of Joy Reid's guests) BigmanPigman Oct 2017 #12
That is not the case. Calista241 Oct 2017 #14
Interesting. Thanks. ancianita Oct 2017 #15
It's why Schneiderman (NY AG) being involved is a double edged sword. Calista241 Oct 2017 #17

delisen

(6,043 posts)
2. New Ground. Democrats are thinking.
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 02:29 PM
Oct 2017

This is where political will counts.

There was not sufficient political will in 1992 when GHW Bush pardoned the Iran-contra actors including Casper Weinberger, whom many thought might implicate Bush himself when Weinberer came to trial.

The Republicans and Shawn Hannity made a hero out of Oliver North who was basically a criminal-he got off on a technicality.

I am beginning to think of the Republican Party as a quasi-criminal enterprise.

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,002 posts)
5. Google. 5th is for past crimes. When absolved by pardon there can be no self-incrimination
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 02:48 PM
Oct 2017

Let me google that for you:
5th pardon

Second hit (10 legal experts):
https://www.vox.com/2017/8/29/16211784/donald-trump-pardon-constitution-michael-flynn-manafort

If someone like Flynn or Kushner were preemptively pardoned, he wouldn’t be able to plead the Fifth Amendment if he were called to testify against Trump. The Fifth Amendment protects citizens against self-incrimination. But if someone has been pardoned, they no longer face the threat of prosecution, and so they can’t use a desire to avoid incriminating themselves as an excuse not to answer a question.


Third hit (Constitutional scholar):
https://www.quora.com/Would-a-full-presidential-pardon-void-an-individuals-5th-amendment-protection-from-self-incrimination-on-actions-cover-by-the-pardon
The 5th amendment protects you from being compelled to testify if that testimony could place you in jeopardy of criminal prosecution.

But that jeopardy is the key. You cannot be compelled to put yourself at risk. Remove the risk, and you CAN be compelled to testify.


Gosh, could you have done that for your self?

Towlie

(5,324 posts)
6. Gosh, could you have done that in your initial post?
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 02:52 PM
Oct 2017

If readers already knew what you wrote then your post was pointless. Why tell people what they already know?

If readers didn't know it then it's unreasonable to expect them to take your word without references.

Lesson: Don't be like Trump, back up your assertions, don't just make unsubstantiated claims and expect people to believe them.

cstanleytech

(26,291 posts)
8. Translation the pardon would really only protect the one pardoned from a crime in the past
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 02:58 PM
Oct 2017

but it would also in effect force them to provide testimony with no 5th amendment right to refuse and if they lie under oath they can still be charged with perjury plus potential accessory charges to what they lied about since it would technically be a new crime that took place after the pardon?

Bernardo de La Paz

(49,002 posts)
9. Yes, and if they refuse to testify they can be held in prison on contempt until they do. Plus
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 03:05 PM
Oct 2017

Plus tRump can't pardon the perjury or contempt because that would be a prima facie case of Obstruction of Justice.

Further, a tRump pardon for perjury or contempt flowing from a previous pardon would most likely be rejected by the courts, per Schiff's reasoning in the OP.

ancianita

(36,058 posts)
10. As I've said elsewhere, Pardons issued by a president under federal investigation should be indicted
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 03:25 PM
Oct 2017

as obstruction of justice.

No one should be above the law, especially when a president whose unconstitutional actions in office have led to federal investigation.

It isn't naive or ignorant to want law and order to work this way in an eroding democracy.

murielm99

(30,741 posts)
13. This is very much like some of his
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 04:53 PM
Oct 2017

executive orders. He signs them, but they are meaningless. They cannot overturn laws. Judges can rule against them. They are for show, for his ignorant 30% base and for the media and their bothsiderism.

Crash2Parties

(6,017 posts)
11. Unfortunately that is is not quite accurate
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 04:51 PM
Oct 2017

If Congress refused to act against him, he really can do whatever he wishes. And because no law is being changed the effect on the Constitution itself is negligible.

Except of course, that people will realize that the protections in our Constitution mean nothing to a corrupt party should it gain complete power. Still, not much we/they can do about it, is there?

ancianita

(36,058 posts)
16. Failure to keep the country safe from foreign meddling is a breach of one's oath of office, intended
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 06:08 PM
Oct 2017

or not.

The laws are clear. We, through the FBI, can do something about it.

Ignorance of laws governing emoluments, obstruction of justice, trafficking with hostile foreign countries or lying under oath before Congress or the FBI is no excuse.

Ignorance is no excuse, either, for a do-nothing congress full of lawyers, who count on public ignorance of their looking the other way.

Protections of our Constitution and protecting the Constitution mean something to the FBI, every single member of which is under oath to protect and defend against corruptions.

Every FBI prosecutor who's taken the same oath as the president can indict those who've breached their oaths of office, along with their criminally corrupt employees, and even those in Congress (whose job is to monitor the executive branch) who are complicit in covering up their crimes by pretending ignorance.

BigmanPigman

(51,594 posts)
12. I heard on MSNBC (I think it was one of Joy Reid's guests)
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 04:53 PM
Oct 2017

also say on Friday that if anyone is pardoned then they can't take the 5th and that goes for Federal and State crimes. Even if some get out of trouble in DC they will still have to testify in NY if charges come from crimes committed there.

Calista241

(5,586 posts)
14. That is not the case.
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 05:53 PM
Oct 2017

Usually, pardons are for specific crimes. If a person is in legal jeopardy, whether it's from the Feds or a State, in relation to a crime not covered by the pardon, that person has the guaranteed right to seek the protection of the 5th amendment.

If a prosecutor believes a pardoned person has information related to an investigation, and it's related to the crimes for which the person is pardoned, then that person will be treated as a material witness, and their testimony can be compelled.

Now, getting them to tell you the whole truth, against their will and interest, is up to the prosecutor.

Calista241

(5,586 posts)
17. It's why Schneiderman (NY AG) being involved is a double edged sword.
Sun Oct 29, 2017, 06:32 PM
Oct 2017

Yes, Trump can pardon people, but Schneiderman being involved means those people are still in legal jeopardy, technically.

Mueller could sit down to question a pardoned individual; but since Schneiderman has participated, at least to some degree, in the investigation, no judge would compel a witness to testify and give Mueller information that a state prosecutor could then use in a legal case against them.

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