Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

TomCADem

(17,390 posts)
Sun Dec 3, 2017, 11:22 PM Dec 2017

Neo-Nazi argues that troll storm against Jewish woman is free speech

Source: MSN/The Hill

The founder of a popular neo-Nazi website who was sued after he called on his readers and followers to “troll storm” a Jewish Realtor from Montana is arguing that his actions are protected by free speech.

Andrew Anglin, founder of the Daily Stormer, has asked a federal court in Montana to dismiss a lawsuit that Tanya Gersh filed against him last spring. In court records filed last week, Anglin’s attorneys said that the First Amendment “is blind to viewpoint” and that the Constitution protects Anglin’s right to express his views about Gersh, “no matter how many people find those views intolerable.”

“If a local business were polluting the environment, any editor could rally his readers to write to that business in protest,” his legal team, led by First Amendment lawyer Marc Randazza, wrote in court briefs asking for the dismissal of the lawsuit. “If a local business were discriminating against black customers, the NAACP can exhort its members to send correspondence to it. And, conversely, the KKK can ask its members to send letters of protest to an establishment that treats all races equally.”

Gersh, of Whitefish, Mont., sued Anglin in April in the U.S. District Court for the District of Montana. The complaint details many of the more than 700 anti-Semitic and hateful messages, including death threats, to Gersh, her family, friends and colleagues.

Read more: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/neo-nazi-argues-that-%E2%80%98troll-storm%E2%80%99-against-jewish-woman-is-free-speech/ar-BBG9RRb



You know what this will lead to? Racial and sexual harassment are also free speech, which the government cannot regulate or restrict. If you comment that woman has a nice a*$, locker room talk as our President would call it, then you are just expressing your opinion. Likewise, if you state a racial stereotype, well that is also protected by the first amendment.
17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Neo-Nazi argues that troll storm against Jewish woman is free speech (Original Post) TomCADem Dec 2017 OP
This free speech denfense is getting old. DangerousUrNot Dec 2017 #1
"The right to free speech" does not absolve forgotmylogin Dec 2017 #5
Free speech laws apply to government, of course, specifically Hortensis Dec 2017 #16
Trump will soon tweet his support for the Nazi. Soon afterward, we'll be told it was his lawyer. C Moon Dec 2017 #2
death threats are NOt free speech DonCoquixote Dec 2017 #3
You can't yell fire in a crowded theatre Juliusseizure Dec 2017 #4
Yes, actually, you can. Stop using that example. It's an odious case that was overturned 40 yrs ago. X_Digger Dec 2017 #12
I'm pretty sure death threats are still outlawed... Blue_Tires Dec 2017 #15
Sure a lot of stuff from Whitefish, Montana lately. Midnight Writer Dec 2017 #6
I noticed that... IthinkThereforeIAM Dec 2017 #7
His defense is "we're Nazis; we always threaten to put Jews in ovens - don't take it seriously" muriel_volestrangler Dec 2017 #8
Obviously, He Doesn't Understand What The Constitution Says ProfessorGAC Dec 2017 #9
A world of difference lapislzi Dec 2017 #10
The success or failure of one aspect of his defense will hinge melm00se Dec 2017 #11
while walking between our local middleschool and highschools elmac Dec 2017 #13
They are intimidating and terrorizing an American in pursuit of a political agenda IronLionZion Dec 2017 #14
A threat of violence or of other harm is a legal assault. haele Dec 2017 #17

DangerousUrNot

(431 posts)
1. This free speech denfense is getting old.
Sun Dec 3, 2017, 11:35 PM
Dec 2017

I noticed it about 2 years ago. People like Dave Rubin, the alt-right and the big movement against SJWs all want to hide under free speech. Of course you shouldn’t be locked away for saying something insensitive but it doesn’t make it ok. Trump started this unapologetic, non pc bullshit rhetoric. They take it too far and except people not to get emotional when being called out their name.

forgotmylogin

(7,533 posts)
5. "The right to free speech" does not absolve
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 03:40 AM
Dec 2017

responsibility for the consequences of your speech.

You have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. If that causes death and injury, prosecuting you for the results in no way has inhibited your "free speech".



Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
16. Free speech laws apply to government, of course, specifically
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 05:06 PM
Dec 2017

when we think of the First to the federal government. And states have their own versions.

Private industry is a different matter. They can set their own rules, but when an institution is as large as Facebook, say, the issue isn't simple. As wife of a Jew, I'd let people say what they want as long as they are not part of large effort to influence whole peoples.

For the latter, we really need "no yelling fire in a crowded nation" laws to limit the evil, deceptive manipulation of mass media for political purposes.

Juliusseizure

(562 posts)
4. You can't yell fire in a crowded theatre
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 12:50 AM
Dec 2017

There are limits to free speech. That's why Anglin fleed to Africa. His attorneys are hoping for a Neo Nazi Judge.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,382 posts)
8. His defense is "we're Nazis; we always threaten to put Jews in ovens - don't take it seriously"
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 06:28 AM
Dec 2017
“Political hyperbole is not a threat. .?.?. The third parties’ statements are generally recognized anti-Semitic tropes, without actual harm reasonably construed,” the attorneys wrote. “And, even Nazi expression, no matter the psychic harm on Jewish residents, is nonetheless protected speech.”

If you don't take it seriously, they drive a car at demonstrators and kill them, and then say "oh, that guy wasn't representative of us".

ProfessorGAC

(65,213 posts)
9. Obviously, He Doesn't Understand What The Constitution Says
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 07:50 AM
Dec 2017

The government isn't suing him. He's protected from the GOVERNMENT putting limits on speech.
He's being sued by a private citizen who is the aggrieved party!

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
10. A world of difference
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 10:14 AM
Dec 2017

Between free speech and harassment. One is protected. One isn't. I can call you bad names. I can insult you, your family, your ethnic group, whatever. What I can't do, is exhort hundreds of others to initiate a campaign of harassment that includes death threats. Death threats, threats of violence, stalking--not protected. 700 messages that include death threats and harassment of a person's family and associates is not free speech.

This is not a fine distinction. It's pretty binary.

melm00se

(4,996 posts)
11. The success or failure of one aspect of his defense will hinge
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 10:30 AM
Dec 2017

on the Brandenburg test which has 3 distinct elements:

1) intent
2) imminence
3) likelihood

Ruling is here

In Matal v. Tam, the Supreme Court (in a unanimous decision) reaffirmed that there is no hate speech exception to the 1st Amendment.

As to the claim that this is a civil lawsuit between two private parties:

Since the 1960's the Supreme Court has allowed and expanded that 1st Amendment can be raised as a defense in civil lawsuits.


 

elmac

(4,642 posts)
13. while walking between our local middleschool and highschools
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 11:34 AM
Dec 2017

I noticed a large swastika scratched in the sidewalk. Quiet midwest farming community. Hate is everywhere and growing under fascism.

IronLionZion

(45,543 posts)
14. They are intimidating and terrorizing an American in pursuit of a political agenda
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 11:49 AM
Dec 2017

So sure, they have the first amendment, but they can also be prosecuted under terrorism laws. These hate groups are inciting violence. Our current president has incited violence at his rallies.

Hate speech is ALWAYS a political agenda for those who desperately want to deny white terrorism.

And for a very interesting precedent. A liberal Democratic president has already killed a US citizen for terror speech. Not for terrorist acts, just for speech that encouraged others to commit terrorist acts of violence.

haele

(12,682 posts)
17. A threat of violence or of other harm is a legal assault.
Mon Dec 4, 2017, 05:32 PM
Dec 2017

Assault is a crime. Libel is a crime (even though slander can be iffy)

Doesn't matter if a threat or followed through on or not.
Even if it's just to intimidate, if I publically announce you cheated me and that you cheat everyone you sell to, that can be taken as evidence should you want to take me to court for false public statements that were made in an attempt to harm your business.

If I announce I'm going to beat you within an inch of your life because I don't like the way you looked at me, you can apply for a restraining order against me and take me to court.

If I incite my friends to harass you extra-judicially, I'm still responsible for my words, and responsible for any incitement to violence against you that was made by my friends and followers.

Of course I can defend myself and say I really mean it because I'm just a goofball hothead, but still...my assault against you is admissible in a court of law.

So, yes. Words matter.

Haele

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Neo-Nazi argues that trol...