Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 10:32 AM Jan 2018

Putin Says Communism Comes From the Bible, Compares Lenin to a Saint

Source: Newsweek Magazine




BY DAMIEN SHARKOV ON 1/15/18 AT 6:44 AM

Russian President Vladimir Putin has compared Vladimir Lenin to a saint and declared that Soviet communist ideas come from the Bible.

Putin was speaking during a documentary about the recently-restored Valaam Monastery on state-funded channel Rossiya 1, which tells the story of the building—located near the border with Finland—over the years.

A major point of discussion is the October Revolution of 1917, which led to the execution of the staunchly Christian royal family, the formation of the Soviet Union and a new chapter of atheistic and anti-religious policies by the Kremlin.

Ever since—and particularly after the opening of the Soviet Union under Mikhail Gorbachev in the early 1990s—the role of the church in Russian society has been a dividing issue.

But Putin, who has often backed the church, tells the documentary makers that he does not believe the ideals of communism and Christianity are incompatible.

“Maybe I am about to say something that some people will not like, but I will say what I think,” he says.

“Firstly, faith has always accompanied us. It strengthened when things were hard for our people’s country. There have been harsh, godfighting years when clerics were destroyed and churches were ruined. But at the same time (Soviets) created a new religion. Indeed, communist ideology is very similar to Christianity.”

Lenin, an atheist who espoused the Marxist view that religion was "the opium of the people," inspired an active campaign to confiscate church property, while his successor, Joseph Stalin, demolished Moscow’s biggest cathedral in 1931. In its place he planned a public swimming pool compete with a giant statue of Lenin. Stalin ran out of money for the project but it was later built by Stalin's successor, Nikita Krushchev.

But Putin argues that like Christianity, communism preaches “freedom, brotherhood, equality.” He called the Moral Code of the Builder of Communism, a pamphlet of guiding principles for all party members, a “primitive excerpt from the Bible.”

In ritual too, Putin argued, Lenin and his cohorts borrowed from church practices, though it was unclear if he thought this was a conscious or intuitive effort.

"Lenin was laid down in a mausoleum,” Putin reminded his interviewer. “How does this differ to the remains of saints for the Orthodox or even for Christians in general?”

Ironically, the issue of Lenin's mausoleum is one of the main sources of discord between the church and the Communist Party, which are the country’s second largest presence in parliament.

Church officials have long sought to have Lenin—whose mausoleum has stood outside the Kremilin since 1924—buried, arguing that it is improper. Communists argue that the casket sits below ground level, fulfilling the criteria for burial.

Putin has long refused to be drawn either way about the mausoleum, but told Rossiya 1 that the monument was similar to how saints are displayed in the Orthodox tradition.

“I am often told: ‘Nowhere in the Christian world is there such a tradition.’ How can that be? Go to Athos and see how there are remains of saints and here also there are the sacred remains of Sergius and Herman," he says.

"So it seems that the authorities at the time did not invent anything new, but merely adopted under its own ideology something that humankind invented a long time ago.”

###



Read more: http://www.newsweek.com/putin-says-communism-comes-bible-compares-lenin-saint-781328





Full article posted with the permission of Newsweek -- Don
34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Putin Says Communism Comes From the Bible, Compares Lenin to a Saint (Original Post) DonViejo Jan 2018 OP
I'm just shaking my head janterry Jan 2018 #1
Same reason Shitler pretends. Power, Religious folk accept pretenders, no problem. Russia is Fred Sanders Jan 2018 #2
in a lot of ways..... getagrip_already Jan 2018 #3
+1 DetlefK Jan 2018 #6
You know, that excuse never gets old: DetlefK Jan 2018 #14
capitalism is Christian is almost as big a lie as capitalism is inherently democratic yurbud Jan 2018 #17
You are correct, evil capitalism would be having us working on Sunday as well! snooper2 Jan 2018 #34
This is going to make the Putin-loving Trumpanzees very conflicted. . . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Jan 2018 #4
Communism is freedom??? The Bible is equality??? DetlefK Jan 2018 #5
War is peace nycbos Jan 2018 #9
What do they say about Liberalagogo Jan 2018 #7
Great, hes nuts too RhodeIslandOne Jan 2018 #8
Actually, I'd say there's some truth to that better Jan 2018 #10
Putin's pretty tight with the Russian Orthodox patriarchs. One hand washes the other... nt ancianita Jan 2018 #11
Oh, Lord, another view on fundamental politics bucolic_frolic Jan 2018 #12
This will make Repubs start turning against Putin Dopers_Greed Jan 2018 #13
No. Igel Jan 2018 #21
Oh, please keep saying more stupid shit like this, tovarisch. (n/t) FreepFryer Jan 2018 #15
Not a Stretch Roy Rolling Jan 2018 #16
Well, the Bible isn't an economics book. It's a book written by some men about faith... Honeycombe8 Jan 2018 #18
Americas' Maxheader Jan 2018 #19
what say we interview some of the many millions of political prisoners Javaman Jan 2018 #20
He's not talking to us. Igel Jan 2018 #22
personally, communism under the soviets... Javaman Jan 2018 #23
Religion was the "opiate of the people" until Pootey found he needed some of that opiate, too. deminks Jan 2018 #24
I wondered what Putin's endgame is. Now it seems he really does want to bring back the Soviet Union tclambert Jan 2018 #25
His version of corrupt communism may be the only way he can keep the Eliot Rosewater Jan 2018 #26
Its okay! Conservatives love communists now... Thomas Hurt Jan 2018 #27
Putin says communism comes from the Bible. carlpangea78 Jan 2018 #28
Stalin was a Georgian and he's still revered there Rhiannon12866 Jan 2018 #33
He's right; everyones equal in communist countries. Equally poor & miserable! 7962 Jan 2018 #29
Russia is not Communist, however. Its a pseudo-Democracy thats actually a mafia state. Oneironaut Jan 2018 #30
Trump says Democracy comes from the Devil, compares Putin to a saint. lagomorph777 Jan 2018 #31
"...communist ideology is very similar to Christianity" - Vlad Grins Jan 2018 #32

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
2. Same reason Shitler pretends. Power, Religious folk accept pretenders, no problem. Russia is
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 10:38 AM
Jan 2018

90% plus white AND Christian and mainly one sect, Russian Orthodox.

Kissy, kissy some cleric ass.

getagrip_already

(14,757 posts)
3. in a lot of ways.....
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 10:41 AM
Jan 2018

He is correct. Oh, not in the practical, just the theoretical.

The key tenants of christ's actual teachings (some of which are surprisingly in the bible), point towards the ideals of love thy neighbor, people being equal in the eyes of god, helping others, heck, even the powerful serving the powerless (as exemplified by washing their feet).

That is diametrically the opposite of capitalism and facism. Of course, in theory, democracy also shares many of those ideals. Capitalism ruins them though.

So yeah, many of communism's ideals may be biblical. So what. It was implemented under a dictatorship of cruelty and barbarism. It failed because it was corrupt and failed to serve the needs of those it purportedly existed for. The result was an oligarchy run by a dictator.

Putin proclaiming links to the bible and it's teachings is about as absurd as trump doing it.

Democracy should be viewed critically towards the failure of soviet communism. It could also fail, and for many of the same reasons.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
14. You know, that excuse never gets old:
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 11:06 AM
Jan 2018

When confronted with the many failures and mistakes of communist countries to live up to communist ideals, the go-to excuse is to point out that they didn't implement Communism properly.

Communism is great... in theory. The problem is, Communism only works with a a population of perfect humans who are neither selfish nor irrational.

There was an east-german poet who wrote a sarcastic warning to his fellow citizens: They better appreciate the socialist leadership, or else it will leave them behind and look for new people to rule over.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
34. You are correct, evil capitalism would be having us working on Sunday as well!
Tue Jan 16, 2018, 12:14 PM
Jan 2018

That is why the bible says you are supposed to kill your neighbor if you see him working on Sunday

better

(884 posts)
10. Actually, I'd say there's some truth to that
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 10:50 AM
Jan 2018

The fundamental principles of Communism, common ownership of the means of production, and the absence of social classes, money and the state, I think are indeed rather compatible with Christianity. The problem with Communism is not the underlying philosophy, but the inherent corruption of man in its implementation.

Personally, I find that Capitalism is the more incompatible with the essence of Christianity, particularly when it is practiced as a combination of religion and system of government, as we have devolved into. I, for one, am frequently struck by the cognitive dissonance of those who angrily proclaim how this is a CHRISTIAN NATION, and then in the same discussion will rail against their taxes going to things like feeding the hungry and sheltering foreigners. For as much as they love to cite Leviticus 20:13 to justify their bigotry toward homosexuals, they sure do seem to miss the rather clear point of Leviticus 23:22...

When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and for the foreigner residing among you. I am the LORD your God.


Seems to me that spending our tax dollars (the gleanings of our harvest) caring for the poor and the foreigners residing among us is a pretty clearly appropriate thing for the government of a supposedly Christian nation to do.

Dopers_Greed

(2,640 posts)
13. This will make Repubs start turning against Putin
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 11:00 AM
Jan 2018

Or it will make them start liking communism.

We already know how spineless they are.

Igel

(35,317 posts)
21. No.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 12:34 PM
Jan 2018

They'll look at the statement and be able to disagree with it.

Even if it's just, "Nuh-uh!" they won't assume it's true because it's said.

(A key difference that undermines Putin is butt-obvious: While early Xians are said to have held all things in common, it was also voluntary. You could participate or not. There was nothing wrong about not participating.In fact, it was presented that it's better to not participate if you're going to do it wrong or for the wrong reasons. Try that with any governmental system.

(We've a long experience with voluntary communes. In the US, in Israel, elsewhere. They run into resentment, inequality, and after a generation or two self-destruct. Or they expel or encourage deviant members to leave and hope both for new members joining to keep staffed and for new members' wealth to keep solvent. Or they have such a strict, strong, moral code that they teach their kids and in so doing avoid much of the resentment coupled with a strong "us good/them bad" point of view. Most people would consider such a code repressive, at least if they didn't agree with it. The USSR was just a large-scale version of this. They liquidated their wealth and relied on expelling or incarcerating those who didn't play by the new rules. They lived for xenophobia, which started as nationalism, became mostly ideological, but quickly returned to simple nationalism. To avoid self-destruction, they quickly found, by 1925, that they needed a fairly strong, repressive state.)

This is a year old and it would be interesting to see a more recent survey: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/01/10/u-s-public-says-russia-hacked-campaign/ft_17-01-10_russiahacks_adversary3/

Roy Rolling

(6,917 posts)
16. Not a Stretch
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 11:09 AM
Jan 2018

Many so-called Christian leaders declared Trump a great Christian. Christian "leaders" who kiss-ass are no better than Putin, this is the same logic.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
18. Well, the Bible isn't an economics book. It's a book written by some men about faith...
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 11:45 AM
Jan 2018

in one aspect of religion. It's not a history book, either.

Maxheader

(4,373 posts)
19. Americas'
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 12:02 PM
Jan 2018

Right wing loons...not just the religious hacks...share
much the same philosophy as putin...when The Bible
doesn't match his 'doctrines' on social restraint..
he makes it up..

Javaman

(62,530 posts)
20. what say we interview some of the many millions of political prisoners
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 12:13 PM
Jan 2018

in the gulags, shall we? and see exactly what they have to say.

Igel

(35,317 posts)
22. He's not talking to us.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 12:46 PM
Jan 2018

He's talking to other Russians and trying to heal what some still see as a rift in the population.

Think of it as going to attitudes. The Orthodox did not want to hurt people under tsarism. That wasn't the idea. Jesus didn't say, "Kill thy neighbor, and abuse those that you have opportunity to abuse." They believed themselves to be doing good.

Similarly, most of the actual believers in the Communist Party also thought they were doing something good (remove all the wannabes who joined because without a Party card you couldn't go to college, be a manager, or have a good job).

In the event, though, both screwed up. However, the Communists early on presented the Orthodox as hateful, vindictive, and intentionally bad and abusive. Now, some were, to be sure. But most weren't.

The Orthodox also present the communists as hateful, vindictive, and intentionally bad and abusive. Now, some were, to be sure. But most weren't.

The current problem isn't that things went bad, but that it's assumed that the group on the other side of the fence had only bad motives. Putin's all wet on this--the problem with Soviet-style 'communism' was that it precisely missed the most basic premises of the "they held all things in common" line from Acts. Holding all things in common didn't deny property or the acceptability of owning it, or the individual choice to participate; collective good is presented as what emerges from a group of people with the same goal using the same means. It's merely more efficient.

I think that both of the systems have rather serious problems, one far, far more serious than the other, but "user intent" isn't one of them. I'm still a fairly firm believer in Hanlon's razor, don't attribute to malice what can be explained by mere stupidity.

Javaman

(62,530 posts)
23. personally, communism under the soviets...
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 12:58 PM
Jan 2018

was far outside their grasp.

They were still mired in the feudal mindset and hadn't really fully explored the concept of cooperative mentality.

as a result, many old wounds from the Tsars still kept the politburo suspicious of everything.

I think it was doomed from the start. it was pure enertia that kept it going for so long

deminks

(11,014 posts)
24. Religion was the "opiate of the people" until Pootey found he needed some of that opiate, too.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 01:58 PM
Jan 2018

However he can use it to strengthen his own position and his own power, and keep the opposition in jail (or dead), he will.

tclambert

(11,087 posts)
25. I wondered what Putin's endgame is. Now it seems he really does want to bring back the Soviet Union
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 02:09 PM
Jan 2018

and their brand of corrupt Communism.

Why has he done all the things he's done? Just to get rich? Just to accumulate power? He must have a plan beyond that. "Russians don't take a dump, son, without a plan," according to Admiral Painter in The Hunt for Red October. Putin seems especially schemey.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,112 posts)
26. His version of corrupt communism may be the only way he can keep the
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 02:12 PM
Jan 2018

300 billion he has stolen from the citizens there.

BTW, he is going to take your house and mine next, and trumpers houses, they just dont know it yet.

Rhiannon12866

(205,467 posts)
33. Stalin was a Georgian and he's still revered there
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 11:59 PM
Jan 2018

Last edited Tue Jan 16, 2018, 08:02 AM - Edit history (1)

Because he murdered so many Russians. That's what I was told when I was there and asked why there were still so many statues of Stalin.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
29. He's right; everyones equal in communist countries. Equally poor & miserable!
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 04:53 PM
Jan 2018

And minorities are also treated equally in communist countries. Equally MIStreated.

Oneironaut

(5,500 posts)
30. Russia is not Communist, however. Its a pseudo-Democracy thats actually a mafia state.
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 05:01 PM
Jan 2018

Elections are rigged so that the same person (or his puppets) wins over and over again, and opponents face potentially lethal harassment campaigns.

Before someone claims that “it’s the same here, though,” no it isn’t. It’s not even close. This country has problems, but Putin’s kleptocratic stranglehold on Russia is another beast entirely. Try going to Russia and challenging Putin’s leadership. In the US you might have a smear campaign run against you, while in Russia, you might have a radioactive cocktail poured into your drink.

Grins

(7,217 posts)
32. "...communist ideology is very similar to Christianity" - Vlad
Mon Jan 15, 2018, 07:14 PM
Jan 2018
"...communist ideology is very similar to Christianity". - 'Ole Vlad hisownself.

To America's 'Christian' Evangelicals, maybe. For those others...not so much.
Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Putin Says Communism Come...