But of course once it became clear that the US media in NO WAY has their backs, and nobody of any real gravitas like an Obama or one of the Clintons stepped up to the plate and forcefully and successfully argued in favor of the Dems taking this approach, and the Dem polls dropped by a point or two re: 2018 ... they caved.

Way to show some SACK, Dems!

and was shot down by DUers. The word "troll" was used to describe the Resisters who support the Dreamers and were accused of being counter productive to the Dems and Schumer.

Last night a guest on Chris Hayes said that the Dreamers and DACA should never have been tied to the Shutdown and this can be used against their cause which most Americans support yet they do not support a Shutdown over it. The problem, in my opinion, is with the Right Wing BS/PR propaganda machine that uniformed Americans continue to believe like blind sheep.

Speaking for myself:
Like you I support hardworking immigrants. They are America. Our ancestors are mainly immigrants who came here to work hard.

But on the shutdown I support Schumer ‘s decision. The real fight is now.

when Rachel had Schumer on she was as skeptical as I am. This GOP game playing is the worst I have ever seen in my life. They throw everyone under the bus and run over them repeatedly. McConnell is the devil incarnate.

My belief is that unless you are 100% Native American than you are an immigrant and I do jot care when your ancestors came here and under what circumstances. The GOP still calls the Dreamers "illegal aliens". That says it all.

From the story, it appears there will be no fight; we've conceded the issue ahead of time.

They're heavily to totally corrupted, and they're America's problem.

and understand them in the context of current events. That's a part of what the typical Democratic pol tries to do in those speaking engagements and meetings with constituents who visit, although the complexities put severe limits on this.

Unfortunately, deepening the understanding of adults who don't know what it is to know something may not always be possible.

That last is a problem Trump has big time. He knows that pols and generals, especially Democrats, all know far less than him and in fact got himself elected pleasing ignorant crowds with that nonsense.

It is now past midnight. I want to hear someone like Rachael or Chris Matthews, or Lawrence O Donnell, or the like report on it.

...so I'm going to consider it as confirmed until she or someone else in a position of leadership disputes it.

If Latinos can't count on you, don't count on them when you need help getting elected.

...line doesn't play any more. If I'm a friend or family member of a deported Dreamer, I don't really give a damn about the difference between someone attacking me and someone refusing to defend me while claiming I owe them because they're silently "on my side." Neither came to the aid of my friend/family member when they were in need, and neither is going to get my support. And all the guilt-tripping in the world won't change that.

all the time among PoC who see this "vote for us, or else" threat by Democrats all the time. Well, or else what? You're willing to let Dreamers get deported, so... what's the point of supporting you?

Democrats are not saying "vote for us or else" to people of color or anyone else. Neither am I. There is no threat here. I am stating a fact. If Latinos stay home, Congress will stay red, and Latinos will be worse off--we will ALL be worse off. I am saying if you stay home to "punish" Democrats, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The reason we are going through this mess is because Congress is controlled by the GOP. The Democrats have no power to force anything. American's don't want us to hold the budget hostage over DACA. The public likes DACA, but they don't want the budget held up over it. If the electorate's present preference for Dems in 2018 changes because of the budget impasse, as polls indicated it was starting to because of the budget impasse, then we can't flip the House. We MUST flip Congress, not just for DACA but for the environment, healthcare...the list goes on and on.

I am not "guilt tripping" anyone. I am appealing to reason.

...and that is the power of the filibuster to force concessions -- and that includes shutting down the government, if necessary. If we refuse to use that tactic, we have no right to say "what can we do, we're in the minority?" You can't unilaterally disarm and then claim you shouldn't be blamed because you don't have weapons.

All of the polls said so. Indeed, Friday and Saturday even on DU there were a lot of folks expressing concern that we were going to look bad to the public, which would hurt us in the midterms.

There are things we can go as a minority in Congress, but we have to have the public on our side. Dems are not "unilaterally disarming." We are choosing our battles and engaging in smart strategy.

I care about what's going to drive out the base. You know, the people who will actually vote for you. But hey, if brown lives don't mean that much to the Democrats and Latinos have to fend for themselves regardless of what party is in power, then let's see how the Democrats do when Latinos don't vote for them.

First, we should ALL care want the majority of Americans want. This is a democracy. Second, to suggest that "brown lives don't mean that much to the Democrats" is fucking disgusting and wrong. Aren't you a Democrat??!!

But aside from that, "Democrats break narrowly in favor of DACA -- 49% say it's more important vs. 42% who say avoiding a shutdown is the priority." https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/19/politics/cnn-poll-shutdown-trump-immigration-daca/index.html That is hardly the sort of "base support" to go to battle with the GOP, and the majority of Americans.

And NO FUCKING WAY are Latinos having to "fend for themselves regardless of what party is in power." Latinos are clearly in better position with a Democratic majority in Congress. Without Democrats, Latinos would not have DACA to begin with, or Obamacare, or a decent economy.

And no, we don't have to see how Democrats do when Latinos don't vote for them. We know what that will look like. The US will look like Texas.

We are less than a year away from a dem house, and a possible real solution

There's no reason to vote for them.

We only need 4 votes in the Senate to pass DACA in the Senate, and we have Feb. 8 to do it. Schumer is doing everything in his power to get those votes.

And without public pressure on the Senate GOP, his job will be a lot harder. How about directing your sniping at them instead of Democrats?

...if/when there is no DACA vote by the 8th, what are we going to do about it? Since we just renounced any attempts to block the budget because of it, are we going to send a "sternly-worded letter?" And how much "public pressure" is going to be put on GOP Senators when we've already openly said we won't stage another shutdown when they break their promise?

But we won't self-immolate.

You still haven't answered that. What can we do, and how can it help Dreamers? (And "put Democrats into the majority in November" is NOT the answer, as they'll be deported long before then.)

But swaying public opinion is. Hold marches. Get in front of microphones and TV cameras. Even the GOP, some anyway, can be swayed by public opinion. But if we piss off the public by shutting down the government over DACA we won't be in a very good position to sway public opinion.

What you said.

The republicans just lied in order to avoid a shutdown.

Another battle last from lack of guts.

I knew when the mean commerical came out the Dems would blink.

...if enough people follow your lead and vote for non-Dems or stay home.

Which is just as good as voting GOP in the end.

Trump has shown them the results of republican control.

But the Dems caving on the Dreamers isn't going to help boost voter turnout among Latino voters.

The GOP is boosting Latino turnout.

who they trust. You seem to be forgetting who holds all the cards in Congress and the White House at the moment. After the mid-terms it will be a different story IF Democrats can hold together and not form circular firing squads, as is their usual "strategy".

The Democrats can fight all they want right now, but they might as well stick their heads up their own asses and fight for air for all the good it will do them. We need to convince Americans to give US the same amount of power they gave the Republicans. Then we can tell the GOP to go piss up a rope, because domestic issues will be OURS!

That's only my opinion, of course. I've been known to be mistaken in the past, but right now Democrats are still the minority party in both Houses of Congress, and we have a fascist egomaniac for 'president". What the hell are we going to do?

...we're the minority party with one quite-powerful weapon, which we've just decided not to use. So it's completely disingenuous to claim "what can we do, we're in the minority." There is definitely something we can do -- we've just chosen not to do it.

Again, as I said upstream, self-immolation is not the answer.

When I was a younger, more combative man I would have been right beside you in that fight. Age has brought with it a modicum of wisdom that realizes the course is futile. We've done it before, and it's cost us dearly.

Schumer must stick to his promises now of NOT funding any of that stupid wall, and he has to insist McConnell revisits the Dreamer issue as he said he would. Shutting the government down now is not a viable alternative. The American people don't want it, and although they almost unanimously support the Dreamers, they're not willing to shut down the government over them. It sucks, but that's the reality of the situation. Democrats must stall this issue until after the mid-terms. Then, hopefully, WE'LL be able to dictate what happens to the Dreamers, and welcome them to the country with a path to citizenship. We cannot win this fight with a government shutdown right now. Period. It would drain any and all of the goodwill the American people have toward Democrats at the moment. As much as they despise Trump, HE won't shut down the government now, and if we do we're once again behind the proverbial eight ball.

Like I said, it sucks, but we have to trust Schumer and the rest of the Democrats to do things their way, and hope (pray if that's your thing) that they have things planned out enough to see it through until the mid-terms. That is the only REAL hope I see for them.
Like I said before, I understand your position clearly, and at a younger age I'd be side by side with you fighting the Democratic establishment to force the issue. I'm hoping this "age/wisdom" thing isn't a bunch of horseshit, and that I'm not eating my words by the time the mid-terms roll around. Peace, brother!

They made a deal with McConnell to have DACA voted on Feb. 8. Therefore, budget negotiations can go forward with that promise. And it appears we are pretty close on everything except DACA. And even DACA just needs 4 more votes in the Senate. Is everyone calling their Senator telling them to vote for DACA on Feb. 8?

It says that passage of the budget (including CRs) will no longer be linked to a DACA solution.

As the article states:

He just intends to allow free and open debate, after the budget has been passed!


Tell me, after they pass the budget, what incentive is there for the Republicans???

Please don't say because McConnell made a deal with Schumer!!!

That will be done separate from the overall budget talks.

And yes, that will be done separate from the overall budget talks. That was the deal Schumer struck with McConnell, in exchange for getting that Feb. 8 vote on DACA.

McConnell would have said anything to avoid a government shut down.

Give Trump his stupid wall, if it means that our 700K American kids can stay here in their home.

Next will be SS and medicare.

Got to pay for the wall.

At what point do you stand and fight.

Fathers, mothers, aunts, uncles, and friends deportation is stripped of any due process protection?

But that's okay, at least the immigrants who meet white suburbanites' definition of "innocent" get to stay.

I favor greens card for everyone already here, not that this will ever happen.

Or to stand up for popular causes?

This does not bode well for the midterms

DACA is popular, but the majority of Americans do not want the government shut down for DACA.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/19/politics/cnn-poll-shutdown-trump-immigration-daca/index.html

What would not bode well for the midterms is if Democrats self-immolated over DACA. Shutting down the government hurts people. Indeed, it can cost lives. If we are going to go nuclear like that, it has to be for something the majority of the American people think we should shut down the government for.

And then we refuse to stand the next time, because its scary and dangerous.

And then the country votes for the other guy, because while they are repugnant, at least they seem to have a position.

I could be wrong. I will still be making all the calls and doing the door to door. But I think we just lost the midterms.

We had DACA and CHIPS.

Just stand up and fight.


I got called a troll last night for saying our side blinked.

Even if you do not have the votes still stand and fight.

We had leverage because of the shutdown.

No more.

We used the leverage we could. If we kept the government shut down for DACA, we would have the public turn against us. It was starting to already.

Our side needed to get out the message about DACA and Chips.
Had commericals ready to go.

We could have got better then 6 years for CHIPS.

We no leverage left.

It looks like we did not care about the DACA kids.

We have midterms coming up.

We needed a stronge message that we stand up to the republicans.

The optics looks bad.

We look like wimps.

What else will the republicans demand now for the budget.

Are we going to have to pay for the stupid wall.

There goes SS and Medicare.

Are we going to cave in to that to.

The circular firing squads are one aspect of that. They tear up our internal workings.

But we also need to convince non insiders to vote our way. And our lack of any strong stand, brand, etc has failed us there, repeatedly. In a nation that largely agrees with most of our ideas and values.. Where we should have an easy 60-70% support.. We have a Republican congress, house, senate, and supreme court.

And we refuse to do anything to earn it back except hope that the R's mess up so bad it will come flowing back on its own.

And then forget them come election time
Check out how badly voting for shutdown hurt them the last time -- not at all
The public quickly forgets most things within a few weeks

The republicans would have caved if our side had not.

Trump is really hated.

We need fighters not cowards.

He lost the primary to Trump, who bragged he was "not a DC politician." People truly suffer during shutdowns. That is not easily forgotten.

They held onto the senate and have their largest house majority since Coolidge/Hoover
And il douche is president
If that's being hurt , I'll take that pain

And to add... I'm betting money, should Cruz win the Republican nomination (which seems likely), he will return to the senate

I'm not saying these people getting deported is a good thing rather I am just saying before this the Repugnants were using our guys efforts to rally their base and now they will be unable to do that.
So now in an election year the Repugnants are going to have decide if they want to deport a few hundred thousand people and risk angering all their families, friends and loved ones just before a major election to appease their voting base.
I must say that is a lovely live hand grenade our guys just gave the Repugnants and in this case I hope it blows up in the Repugnants faces.

Sunseeker has a point about public opinion towards us if we shut down. OTOH, the DACA issue is one 9 out of 10 citizens support - a majority consensus we don't see that often in this very divided country. We might be forgiven if we get a result with the shut down and there's no saying that many wouldn't blame Trump or the GOP instead or as well. With the right messaging (which we seem to have a lack of recently) we could steer public opinion in our favor too.

Problem is: this is going nowhere in the House so it would probably be a futile endeavor.

Our best bet is the courts stalling deportation somehow until next Jan when we (if we) take back the House.

When the public starts seeing Dreamers rounded up by ICE on TV they are going to hate and blame the GOP and Trump and steer more than a few Indies in our direction for Nov. That's a hell of a way to win converts though.

Every criticism of the Dems "caving" obliviously ignores the House.

Those fuckers would literally let the country rot before it lets any comprehensive immigration legislation pass.

You can't back down the level of crazy there.

You hit the nail on the head - scrap, claw to buy time, and make the last stand in November to flush the House.

nothing on CNN website or google news

as long as they are not inconvenienced.

you should change the link to reflect this. I doubt the veracity of this article. Politico leans right.

"“We’re viewing [immigration and spending] on separate terms because they are on separate paths,” Senate Minority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said Tuesday."

I take that to mean no border wall funding either. The whole immigration issue will be separated from the budget talks.
The only reason we are in this situation is because Trump rescinded DACA via executive order. He can un-rescind it any time he wants. This is all HIS fault.

They refuse to raise the debt ceiling until the Dreamers bill is passed.

Trump's announced "framework" for immigration is a non-starter. The Democrats cannot bargain the lives of 800K for family reunification (please, Dems, DO NOT USE "CHAIN IMMIGRATION&quot or for new national quotas.

who are in control of all three branches of the federal government look effective, make them look good. GEESH!!!!!!