The human self-preservation instinct is a powerful thing.

But don't worry citizens. Give up your guns and the police will protect you!



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The police were outgunned by a superior force of two outfitted with military grade equipment.

The North Hollywood shootout, sometimes also called the Battle of North Hollywood, was an armed confrontation between two heavily armed and armored bank robbers and members of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) in the North Hollywood district of Los Angeles on February 28, 1997. Both perpetrators were killed, twelve police officers and eight civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the robbers and police. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

We expect local police to be SWAT? That's why SWAT was created!

Then and now, the problem is military weapons in civilian control.

If I'm not mistaken they even made a movie out of it. I believe this is where the "criminals are better armed than the Police" meme started.

Michael Madsen and Mario van Peebles

I'll have to catch it again if it's on Netflix. Thanks!

Just arm the teachers--problem solved!

with your own gun.

Tell me about the time you successfully calculated the orbital trajectory to Mars. Oh, wait, you made no claims about being a rocket scientist. But I'll demand it of you anyway...

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Ban assault weapons.

Nice to hear that the opiate problem has been solved.



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but you can't kill 17 kids with them. Opiates hurts the user and no one else. Guns affect me and my kids and I want them gone...I have a right to life and liberty etc...so did those slaughtered kids in Florid(NRA martyrs) so did those murdered viciously in Las Vegas and at Sandy Hook...those who die in Chicago where the good guy gun dealers secretly sell to criminals as they don't have to account for inventory by law...I suggest you read up on Australia and what civilized countries do when their children are under attack. Fuck the blood soaked NRA. So where do you stand.... do you love our kids or your guns?

I mean, the shooter was still shooting and the kids were still screaming, so the situation was obviously too dangerous for police. People and their unreasonable expectations of "our" police. Geesh.



Unfortunately, sadly, I must add a sarcasm thingy.

They knew exactly what they signed up for....and that didn't entail just harassing and shooting minorities.

Maybe he could have had a Ruger Mini-14. A gun that was legal to buy and own when the AWB was in effect and fires the same round as the .223 Remington AR-15.

Yes, in general, pistols don't win fights against rifles. However, I'd argue that the fact that these were trained police officers, and this was a 19 year old kid who was likely deaf after the first few shots, and the fact that this would not be a long range engagement would likely even the odds.

But that's not really the point. The point is that when there is an active shooter, you need to shoot at them, and you need to start doing it as quickly as possible. You can shoot from cover. You don't have to hit the guy. But you have to actively be shooting at him.

We completely changed the protocols for handling active shooters after Columbine. There's no police department in the country that has a policy that says "if someone is shooting at a school, make sure you wait for SWAT". Is this risky? Of course it is. I find it astonishing that so many here are defending the (in)actions of the police, at a time when police officers are actively condemning their peers for failure to act.

Ban the damn assault weapons.

I understand why people want to talk about this, but we should all agree to ignore it.

It's not important. What's important is that the kids were killed. Even an army of security guards wouldn't stop most mass shootings.

Let's focus on the victims.

Link to tweet

That tired old argument about arming teachers with a hand gun just blew up in their faces with this. Even trained professionals knew what the odds were with a hand gun going up against an AR-15.

would have died trying, instead of just dying.

This has to motivate teachers into taking Trump up on his proposal. If the trained "security personnel" aren't going to do anything other than "establish a position" (the cop-speak in describing this inactivity makes me want to puke!) then teachers might seriously want to think about having one slim chance of stopping the next crazy-ass loner loser that shows up at their school with a semi-automatic.

But they can only hold 5 rounds in the magazines.

Ban high-capacity magazines.

Thus what do you mean by "military grade".

not going to get into an endless discussion over semantics.

Or are you going to ask me what I mean by “semantics “ too?

Pass a law that bans "military grade" guns and you accomplish nothing. I get the impression that some don't actually care about gun control when it's apparent they won't take time to learn the most basic terminology .

Fuck the gun humpers, not willing to compromise on jack. That could have been my kid or your kid coming home as human hamburger.

I was for compromise before, I really was. But not now, not at this point in time, I’m pissed.

Ban all guns I say and fuck the gun fetishists.

That clear enough for you?

These "loner shooters" are not acting alone. They have the backing of every imbecilic gun humper and every imbecilic politician who has struck down every single sensible gun law we have ever passed.

It is not the job of the children and the teachers to stop them. This is not a problem we can toss off into the schools like all those other societal problems we have tossed off into the schools and told teachers to fix.

It is the job of every citizen and every politician to stop being crazy and change the rules of that gun culture.

It’s asinine and everyone can see its only point is to sell more guns — NRA is a PR group for gun manufacturers— except those in the grip of NRA / rightwing propaganda.

especially if they are elementary age. Teachers who die during these shootings, die trying to remove students from the situation as quickly as possible. Hard to do if you are toting and shooting a gun. A dead teacher in the situation where they are suppose to shoot the bad guy means that all of the children under that teacher's supervision are "sitting ducks" for the shooter. If you have not been in a classroom full of agitated kids, your opinion is not fact based.

with students in wheelchairs. It is only humanly possible to push two wheelchairs at the same time. How do you hold and shoot a gun at the same time?

This just blew up in the face of Trump and the NRA. IF IT TAKES A SWAT team to neutralize an AR-15 then the solution is to ban that class of weapon. Arming the schoolteacher would only produce a false sense of security.. This point needs to be pounded home until it sinks in.

He even got the "drop" on Eric Harris as Harris was changing magazines. The two exchanged gunfire at 60 yards... with the SRO getting off 4 rounds from his handgun. The SRO even thought he hit Harris only to discover that Harris had finished changing magazines and came up firing. Harris retreated into the school and continued to kill more students.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/21/columbine-armed-guards_n_2347096.html

So much for the "armed guard with the handgun should be able to take out the school shooter with the assault rifle."

A handgun vs AR15 - especially in a stressful situation is a terrible position to be in.
People think it's the movies where the good guy can avoid all the fire and nail the "bad guy".

The accuracy and control-ability under stress is vastly superior in the AR - that's why they kill so well.

And then what’s the accuracy at 60 yards in a life and death situation?

to the shooter and still have some "cover" (from behind a vehicle, I believe).

The point is that there was a "good guy with a gun" at Columbine, he didn't "wuss out" and tried his best to shoot one of the two school shooters and wasn't successful. The notion that any teacher, even ex-military, would have done better and saved a number of students... is mostly Hollywood fantasy.

a year, then they need to be able to do more than slam children to the floor. Either they have a job to do, or they don't. If they don't get rid of them. If they don't do their job, fire them. And this should strengthen the no ar15 type guns. Even cops can't stop them.

"do anything but for the love of God don't interfere with my hobby!" are not going to work. The only thing that will work is a change to the gun laws.

Are we going to put teams in full body armor in every school?

And the irony is, some places call out S.W.A.T. teams for peaceful protests yet they go missing when there is an active shooter.



(Ferguson)

They see it as good PR but when it comes time to put one's money where the feeding/talking orifice is they go AWOL.

Maybe they were waiting for orders, since they weren't on duty at the school & just went there because of the emergency? Did they not know what to do? Did their training cover emergency shootings?

If you can't count on law enforcement to do something to help, who can you count on?

knowing that there is a 0.00000001% chance that anything is going to happen to any particular school. And if it does, they can always cower in fear and take their pensions early when it's time to clean up the mess.

Sheriff's dept still wouldn't go in. But then they tried to make it seem to the media like they did the majority of the rescuing. Hasn't set too well with the police dept, at all since they were the ones - the only ones - who actually risked their lives.

It seems to be a common occurrence.

Facing a gunman with a high-powered weapon is a life-altering call, and officers don’t always charge in despite their training. In Las Vegas last October, two armed sheriff’s deputies and several armed security officers working for the Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino reached the 32nd floor within six minutes of the opening fusillade by gunman Stephen Paddock, a report by the Las Vegas police showed. But the deputies and officers, unsure of what was behind the hotel room door, did not attack Paddock’s room as he continued to pour shots down into a country music concert for another four minutes, the report found. Paddock then committed suicide, having killed 58 people at the concert.

him in a contained area and not a lot of chance of him taking hostages (although, not sure they knew that).

In Parkland, the shooter could have gone/been anywhere and he could have taken hostages. In fact, for all the police knew, it was more than one, they might have set bombs up, the shooter(s) might have had a bomb vest and was just waiting to blow up a bunch of kids, or worse.

Honestly, I don't think we will ever know what they guard or first police arriving should have done. They didn't know the situation like we do now. It's a little bit easier to say the guard should have rushed in, now that we know there was only one shooter rather than a bunch of terrorists holding hostages in different parts of the school ready to shoot 100 more kids, there weren't bombs anywhere, etc.


Personally, I still think most of the "fools rush in crowd," are people trying to scapegoat the guard to save their guns by taking the focus off lax laws that allow these weapons.

We have allowed the NRA to convince half of the country that turning human bodies into hamburger is in the Constitution.


I call BULLSHIT

fucking "duh"

more than one....but arming a teacher to take on a killer is suppose to make sense???

an active shooter of kids and cops hang back defies the purpose. They watch unarmed coaches rushing in and they stood back and did nothing???


its obama's fault, hillary's fault, the FBI's fault....right?

Or maybe someone with a handgun comparable to what the officer has.

Easy pickings.

Read this story and maybe rethink your defense of armed and trained officers who didn't have the courage in their entire bodies that this 15 year old had in his little finger!!!!

https://xazon.com/this-15-year-old-killed-in-parkland-dreamed-of-attending-west-point-he-was-buried-with-full-military-honors/

the radical RW will just make it into an easy scapegoat and I would not be surprised if some are not already portraying it as a dem/liberal failing and demonizing the whole county ( which is dem-voting I believe ).

Thats how they do it in WI - any and every bad thing that happens in Madison or Dane Co. gets blamed on the fact that its liberal/left, no matter how ridiculous the argument sounds.

Usually it's mental health. As long as we talk about the cops, we're not talking about the one thing that would definitely stop the shootings: no guns. I bet the Russian bots are all over the cop story.

"good guys with guns." The answer is not more guns, it is fewer guns.

Related story on Peterson: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-bz-florida-school-shooting-scot-peterson-20180223-story.html

Israel should resign. They are a terrible agency, we need to rid ourselves of elected Sheriffs.

Many deputies have minimal training. They are not seasoned combat veterans and even if they were I doubt they would rush into a chaotic situation with minimal firepower and no intelligence.
In Iraq, we didn't toss our rifles aside and rush into dwellings with sidearms and I would not expect a deputy to do so either. Heck, it was difficult even to get soldiers to fire sometimes. Sometimes you just freeze up. I know I did. It's a lot to deal with and you never get used to it.

will solve the problem of school shooters.

If they didn't have the guns in the first place . . . oh, wait, how silly is that?

I thought police officers carried high-powered weapons in their patrol cars for instances like this. Not just SWAT members, but regular officers.



That's a question that I think should be answered during the after-incident investigation.