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Newsjock

(11,733 posts)
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:07 PM Sep 2012

Scalia, at UNLV, criticizes notion of Constitution as a living document

Source: Las Vegas Sun

Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia’s trademark intellect and wit were on display Wednesday morning at UNLV as he provided an impassioned argument for an originalist interpretation of the U.S. Constitution to a group of law students and professors.

... Throughout, he argued against the notion of a “living Constitution” open to interpretation by judges and advocated for a strict reading of the document as written, with changes made through amendments.

“Americans used to understand … that the Constitution meant things, it meant things that didn’t change,” Scalia said. “If we wanted to change it, we had to do it the way the Constitution says, we adopted an amendment. … That’s not what we do anymore.”


Read more: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/sep/05/scalia-unlv-criticizes-notion-constitution-living-/

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Scalia, at UNLV, criticizes notion of Constitution as a living document (Original Post) Newsjock Sep 2012 OP
Ocelot, in living room in Minneapolis, criticizes notion of Scalia as a living human. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2012 #1
Good one! fleur-de-lisa Sep 2012 #4
tkmorris, at DU, criticizes notion of Scalia as a Supreme Court Justice tkmorris Sep 2012 #2
I'm waiting for him to have a well-deserved heart attack. pnwmom Sep 2012 #3
He makes me ashamed to be of Sicilian heritage. CanonRay Sep 2012 #5
non legal scholar/lawyer here* edited irisblue Sep 2012 #6
Scalia's all wrong ass usual. xtraxritical Sep 2012 #35
I don't think you need to be a legal scholar to interpret the constituion... rwsanders Sep 2012 #45
It's a Constitution, not a sales agreement. Deep13 Sep 2012 #7
Some Reason, This Reminds Me of a Quote from a Movie Xyzse Sep 2012 #8
Actually, the movie quote which I'm reminded the most of because it's spot-on for Scalia rock Sep 2012 #19
May have to put that on queue.. Xyzse Sep 2012 #20
Does he need a clerk, perhaps? I hear that Righthaven dude might be available. mahatmakanejeeves Sep 2012 #9
I Imagine His Clerks Use Quill Pens. (nt) Paladin Sep 2012 #13
If it isn't a living document, how are there any amendments? chelsea0011 Sep 2012 #10
That's not the same thing. eqfan592 Sep 2012 #25
So, I guess the Tea Party won't be having their GOP governors appointing any US Senators sinkingfeeling Sep 2012 #11
Scalia must have a secret Constitution that gives us corporate personhood then ck4829 Sep 2012 #12
Perfect point donqpublic Sep 2012 #17
My very first thought xxqqqzme Sep 2012 #29
As a law student, I'm curious- does the Constitution apply to the internet?? cecilfirefox Sep 2012 #14
I tend to agree with you. eqfan592 Sep 2012 #28
Nice theory, but... gmpierce Sep 2012 #41
Hmmm, interesting. eqfan592 Sep 2012 #52
The government of the USA has been vacuuming up all internet traffic xtraxritical Sep 2012 #53
Depends on what is being protected.... happyslug Sep 2012 #61
I worry TlalocW Sep 2012 #15
Vampires are jealous of living things. nt valerief Sep 2012 #16
Bush v Gore Vinnie From Indy Sep 2012 #18
But, but, that was just a one-off ruling, get over it! bluesbassman Sep 2012 #22
Lyin' Scalia bongbong Sep 2012 #42
If Scalia really believed in strict USC interpretation, it would've been decided in the FL courts. bluesbassman Sep 2012 #47
We need to rewrite the constitution. JRLeft Sep 2012 #21
If he wants a strict interpretation of the Constitution . . . aggiesal Sep 2012 #23
OMFG, the fail is so amazingly strong with your post. eqfan592 Sep 2012 #26
I guess we should just skip the first part of the amendment aggiesal Sep 2012 #30
Where in the amendment does it say only citizens that are part of the militia... eqfan592 Sep 2012 #33
We're having the same debate that the . . . aggiesal Sep 2012 #36
Actually, in the fairly recent Heller case in DC... eqfan592 Sep 2012 #38
Heller bongbong Sep 2012 #43
What a load of pure bullshit. (nt) eqfan592 Sep 2012 #49
Very effective rebuttal bongbong Sep 2012 #71
2nd Amendment bongbong Sep 2012 #44
NRA talking points my ass. eqfan592 Sep 2012 #50
Wow MFrohike Sep 2012 #63
Cherry picking central! bongbong Sep 2012 #70
"little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms" FiveGoodMen Sep 2012 #78
Might As Well---Scalia Did.....(nt) Paladin Sep 2012 #54
Lets try a different wording and see how it sounds.. EX500rider Sep 2012 #73
So do you think the part about a "well regulated militia" is just empty, meaningless surplusage? onenote Sep 2012 #34
You'll have to point to where I said I thought the constitution was "locked" into... eqfan592 Sep 2012 #37
Okay. Scratch the part about 18th Century mindset. But please answer this question: onenote Sep 2012 #58
Change in technology doesn't require a change in the meaning. When adopted, it referred to the 24601 Sep 2012 #57
The text refers to "arms" not "small arms". Warren Stupidity Sep 2012 #68
Bear arms doesn't mean being sleeveless or undressed weapons. It refers to what a 24601 Sep 2012 #75
He's quite right MFrohike Sep 2012 #64
Talk about stuck in the past! SoapBox Sep 2012 #24
One big problem with Scalia is that he in essence has two votes on the bench Tyrs WolfDaemon Sep 2012 #27
Answer for you bongbong Sep 2012 #46
I just don't think Scalia is that sneaky Tyrs WolfDaemon Sep 2012 #51
The balls he gave Fat Tony bongbong Sep 2012 #69
Scalia is a great example of something non-living, non-evolving.... radhika Sep 2012 #31
Justice Scalia represents a low point for the U.S. Supreme Court tabasco Sep 2012 #32
Like he cares Prophet 451 Sep 2012 #39
and I criticize the notion that he is a living human being! NRaleighLiberal Sep 2012 #40
Me, at DU, criticizes notion of Scalia as a living human mikki35 Sep 2012 #48
I would never wish anything bad happens to anyone Scairp Sep 2012 #55
Nothing new here. elleng Sep 2012 #56
Bush v. Gore & Citizens United DallasNE Sep 2012 #59
Under a strict interpretation, no court decides what the The Second Stone Sep 2012 #60
Not exactly accurate. The Constitution Article III, Section 2 requires the USSC to exercise 24601 Sep 2012 #76
But corporations are people and their money is free speech? kiranon Sep 2012 #62
Hey Tony, this is a Common Law country, you dipshit. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #65
How does he account for all the amendments after the Bill of Rights? VPStoltz Sep 2012 #66
Well, if it's dead, we should bury it! nt nanabugg Sep 2012 #67
That's why Corporations were counted as 3/5th persons for Congressional representation Tom Rinaldo Sep 2012 #72
The Constitution isn't that straightforward...it needs interpretation.. Green_Lantern Sep 2012 #74
Interpretations of issues in the Constitution change becaue some were left vague ehrnst Sep 2012 #77
Thinking people question the notion of Scalia as a living human being. yellowcanine Sep 2012 #79

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,858 posts)
1. Ocelot, in living room in Minneapolis, criticizes notion of Scalia as a living human.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:09 PM
Sep 2012

He is only a partial human - the asshole part.

Wait, maybe not even that. Everyone needs an asshole; I don't think we need Fat Tony.

irisblue

(33,032 posts)
6. non legal scholar/lawyer here* edited
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:17 PM
Sep 2012

Even as a non lawyer/legal scholar I can see flaws in this. 2 quick examples came to mind, 1- 10th Amendment has been cited numerous times for the citizens right to privacy, in particular to my thought, from government. 2-5th Amendment right to counsel ,Miranda right to be informed that you do have legal rights. I am sure many others exist....
Scalia is one very scary dude.
** Not every public issue will rise to the level of needing a constitutional amendment. There will be times, situations and events that will require a Contutional change, the process is difficult and the standard is hard and high to reach. I shudder at the mere idea of a federal constitutional convention in todays' society; and seeing that the state constitutions' can be changed by popular vote would be dangerous on a federal level.**

 

xtraxritical

(3,576 posts)
35. Scalia's all wrong ass usual.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:51 PM
Sep 2012

The constitution has been interpreted and changed hundreds of times over hundreds of years. A "strict" reading of the constitution does not make corporations people, it does not equate campaign contributions as speech. The founders wrote extensively against the concept of the corporate entity and the concept of parties was anathema to the founders. Scalia is a pompous ego maniac and thinks that his interpretations are "strict" readings of the framers intent. I Hope he gets his ass off the bench, one way or another, soon.

rwsanders

(2,606 posts)
45. I don't think you need to be a legal scholar to interpret the constituion...
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 06:49 PM
Sep 2012

Reminds me of the episode of the original Star Trek series called "Omega Glory". It was intended to be a clearly written document containing specific foundations and principles. Your interpretation is very valid. What I don't think the document was create as, was a modern american document intended to hold up to the psychopathic scrutiny of a modern lawyer.
Scalia is the one who is a revisionist. He will claim the document means whatever is convenient for the oligarchy. If there is ever a U.S. dictator while he is on the supreme court, I'm sure he will say there is a justification for martial law.
The easiest counter to his sick nonsense is that if it wasn't intended to be a living document (a term I heard in every U.S. history class I had to suffer through in school), it wouldn't have a mechanism for amendment to begin with.
The problem is that we have allowed the supreme court to begin to chip away at the rights and meanings contained in the constitution. Since they can't change the words, they'll pick a meaning that suits them.
An example is the Declaration states that ALL men are created equal, but sinister manipulaters like Scalia want to say that it only applies to citizens of the U.S. while in the U.S. (they ruled a while back that the Constitution doesn't apply if you are a U.S. citizen in a foreign country and they can search you residence and belongings at any time. And where were those teabaggers and NRA "defenders of the constitution" when that happened?

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
7. It's a Constitution, not a sales agreement.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:17 PM
Sep 2012

For it to be relevant and useable to a 21st c. population of 300M people, it has to be flexible.

Xyzse

(8,217 posts)
8. Some Reason, This Reminds Me of a Quote from a Movie
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:18 PM
Sep 2012

Last edited Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:52 PM - Edit history (1)

As a retort to that which is:
With Honors - Joe Pesci, Brendan Fraser

Simon Wilder: You asked the question, sir, now let me answer it. The beauty of the Constitution is that it can always be changed. The beauty of the Constitution is that it makes no set law other than faith in the wisdom of ordinary people to govern themselves.
Proffesor Pitkannan: Faith in the wisdom of the people is exactly what makes the Constitution incomplete and crude.
Simon Wilder: Crude? No, sir. Our "founding parents" were pompous, white, middle-aged farmers, but they were also great men. Because they knew one thing that all great men should know: that they didn't know everything. Sure, they'd make mistakes, but they made sure to leave a way to correct them. The president is not an "elected king," no matter how many bombs he can drop. Because the "crude" Constitution doesn't trust him. He's just a bum, okay Mr. Pitkannan? He's just a bum.


And Scalia is not a great man, he is a shrinking, backwards looking excuse for a Justice who is myopic in scope. Still, there is need for such people, because even if moving forwards is important, it must be tempered. Problem is, if more of them are stuck like that, it leaves things entrenched and stagnant.

rock

(13,218 posts)
19. Actually, the movie quote which I'm reminded the most of because it's spot-on for Scalia
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:40 PM
Sep 2012

is "People Will Talk" (1951) starring Cary Grant

Shunderson: Professor Elwell, you're a little man. It's not that you're short. You're...little, in the mind and in the heart.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
25. That's not the same thing.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:01 PM
Sep 2012

At least not in this particular instance I believe. In this case, where people talk about it being a "living document" they are speaking to the notion that its interpretation can be changed as the values of society change. I don't happen to agree with that idea actually. As you yourself said, amendments is the way society is supposed to change the document to reflect current society, not disingenuous reinterpretations.

sinkingfeeling

(51,474 posts)
11. So, I guess the Tea Party won't be having their GOP governors appointing any US Senators
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:21 PM
Sep 2012

or trying to change the definition of natural born citizens?

donqpublic

(155 posts)
17. Perfect point
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:39 PM
Sep 2012

You beat me to the punch. He cannot spew this garbage and at the same time have a "pick & choose" acceptance of how that document has EVOLVED. The Declaration to me is the static ideal he demands of a the Constitution. The Constitution is an American heirloom that sometimes needs a change or repair, but it will always be the same Constitution because it is ours.

xxqqqzme

(14,887 posts)
29. My very first thought
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:18 PM
Sep 2012

His 'constitution' may be stuck in 1789 but his recent opinions/votes are not. Bush v Gore and Citizen's United being the most glaring.

cecilfirefox

(784 posts)
14. As a law student, I'm curious- does the Constitution apply to the internet??
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:26 PM
Sep 2012

How does our right against unwarranted searches and seizures apply to e-mails, cellphones, etc.? I mean, they didn't exist during the writing, can the rights against unreasonable searches be extended to them?

And what part of the 14th amendment says 'THIS ONLY APPLIES TO FREED SLAVES.'

You can poke all sorts of holes in the originalist constitution folks.

The reality is, it was made to last, it was made to apply to all. BUT- I admit, the term 'living constitution' is a sinker. It sounds really wishy-washy.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
28. I tend to agree with you.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:09 PM
Sep 2012

Honestly, I don't think what Scalia said here was as awful as a lot of folks here seem to think it is (tho hypocritical for certain based on the Citizens United ruling). He's saying that if we want to affect change in the constitution, we should do it by amending it, not by changing how we decide we're going to interpret what the existing amendments mean, especially when there is plenty of evidence available that underscores their original intention.

 

gmpierce

(97 posts)
41. Nice theory, but...
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 06:29 PM
Sep 2012

The first example of re-interpretation at will was when John Adams and Hamilton came up with the Alien and Sedition Acts which trashed the First Amendment before the ink was completely dry in the Bill of Rights.

(Remember that Benjamin Franklin's grandson was thrown in jail because the Adams administration did not like what he was printing.)

The Supreme Court invented the doctrine of prior restraint and decided that the 1st Amendment prevented the government from keeping you from printing whatever you pleased - but if they didn't like what you had already printed, the law allowed them to throw your butt in jail.

Lawyers have been creatively re-interpreting the constitution for about 220 years now under the Humpdy Dumpty doctrine: a word means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.

 

xtraxritical

(3,576 posts)
53. The government of the USA has been vacuuming up all internet traffic
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 07:40 PM
Sep 2012

in the USA and all traffic entering or leaving the USA for about ten years now. I'm sure they do the same world wide but it's covert.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
61. Depends on what is being protected....
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 10:38 PM
Sep 2012

Remember, at the time of the US Constitutional Convention, it was NOT criminal trespass to go onto the property of someone else and have a look. It was only CRIMINAL TRESPASSING if you entered a building or the "Close" of the house (i.e. the yard around the house). There is some question as to barns or other non-residential housing.

The biggest difference is in Law Enforcement. Lets remember that Sheriffs, Sheriff's deputies and Constables existed, but only were paid on a per action basis (i.e. you had to pay them to do anything, serve papers, evict someone, or even to arrest someone, someone had to PAY). Now Sheriffs could hold someone he thought was a criminal, an escaped slave or an runaway indenture servant and charge that person room and board (and even if found NOT to be a criminal, could be sold into indenture servitude, or if African American into Slavery, to pay the cost of such room and board). If a person could NOT make bail, he or she had to pay for their time in jail, even if found not guilty of whatever charge they were charged with (This happened to the last accused "Witch" in the Salem Witch Trails of 1692, she could NOT pay for her time in jail, so she stayed in jail till she died).

Now, Judges were paid by the State, but if you wanted to prosecute someone for a crime, you had to hire your own attorney to do so. The Attorney General did exist, but he was the State's Attorney and was involved only if the STATE was involved (i.e. Treason, thrift of State property etc), for ordinary crimes, including murder, the victim (or in the case of Murder, the Murdered victim's family) had to hire the attorney to do the prosecution. Now, some towns and cities had by the mid 1700s adopted the practice done in England where towns would hire an attorney for anyone in the town who needed to file a criminal complaint against someone, but given that 90% of the American Population in the 1790s did NOT live in towns or cites, meant 90% of the population had no access to such attorneys and thus had to hire their own. What we called District Attorneys did not come into being in the 1820s/1830s period (Through New York City had them by the 1790s) when a push for such attorneys to prosecute criminals pushed the various state legislatures to create them.

History of New York City's District Attorneys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_County_District_Attorney

Philadelphia;s District Attorney was only formed in 1850, but many of its functions had been performed by the Deputy State Attorney General but unevenly, thus the creation of the County DAs in 1850.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_Attorney_of_Philadelphia

New York County District Attorney has only existed since 1818:
http://manhattanda.org/history-office#1196

As late as the Molly McQuires, it was still possible for people to file private criminal complaints and hire their own attorney for even Murder cases (1876-1878):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Maguires

Now, most cities and towns had "Nightwatchmen" but these had no more power then a normal citizen, unlike District Attorneys, what we Call Police started in France, spread to England and then to the US. In fact many English and American writers in the 1700s bragged that under the Common Law you did NOT have something like the French Police to terrorize the population, American and British Liberty forbade such an institution of tyranny. This all changed in the 1820s and 1830s as first England and then the US adopted what we call police. In the US Police was restricted to large cities, and then more to keep labor in check then any other single reason. State Police did not start till Pennsylvania adopted its State Police Force in 1905 (and then that was to provide some state control over people with Police Power, the Pennsylvania Coal and Iron Police had existed for decades by that time, Given full Police power by the State of Pennsylvania, but hired and paid for by whatever Corporation wanted them, generally to beat up labor organizers).

More on the Pennsylvania State Police:
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=4451&&PageID=462122&mode=2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_Police

The Coal and Iron Police, which has been called the "only true terroristic organisation to ever exist in the US":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_and_Iron_Police

More on State Police forces nationwide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_police_(United_States)

New York City Police was only formed on 1844:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_York_City_Police_Department

Replacing the early Nightwatchmen system, but the Nightwatchmen system only operated at night, in urban areas and had to release anyone it arrested at dawn or show to a Judge evidence of criminal activity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchman_(law_enforcement)

In rural Areas, you did have the "Sheriff's patrol" but it was much more popular in the South then elsewhere in the English speaking world. It was also tied in with Militia Duty. The Sheriff's Patrol was a duty any free male had to perform, at least once a month free white males had to "Patrol" certain intersections of the local roads to make sure no one with criminal intent was traveling on them. Outside the south rarely done, in the South mandated duty for all free whites males more to keep the African American Slaves from being able to organize a revolt then anything else.

Thus if you look at the Bill of Rights it was created at a time period where what we call District Attorneys and Police simply did NOT exist. Sheriffs and Constables did, but they were paid on a per job basis NOT a Salary. Judges were on Salary, but that is about all. Thus the protections of the Bill of Rights were adopted and reflected the law enforcement restrictions of the time period. Patrick Henry, who opposed the Adoption of the US Constitution, on reading the Bill of Rights, stated that his objection to the lost of liberty due to the adoption of the US Constitution still existed for "These rights were never threatened".

I had to go over the above before I answered your question. Thus the real question should be "Who is doing the search and why?". If it is someone looking to make sure you pay for something you agreed to pay for, that is like a person asking you for postage fees when you received a letter (which was the practice then, stamps were NOT invented till the 1830s, thus all mail prior to then had to be paid for by the recipient in addition to the sender). Is the message more like a notice on a bulletin board? i.e. intended for one person, but anyone who could deliver it could pick it up after reading to see if he or she could deliver the note.

As to searches, it was NOT a Crime to enter (trespass) onto the fields of someone else to check out what they were doing (If such a trespasser did any damage, he was liable for the damage, but that is Civil Trespass not Criminal Trespass). If a window or door was open, you could look into it, if what you can see could be from outside the "Close" of the house that was legal and if what you saw was criminal it was enough to have probable cause for a Search Warrant to be issued (Given this would be a Criminal Matter, but handled by private attorneys, you had an inherent check, no one would spend money to hire an attorney for a Search Warrant unless there was clear evidence something to support the criminal charge was where the person claimed it to be).

On the other hand, look back into the 1700s, was it expected for conversations inside a house or a room to be private? For papers to be private. The answer is yes. The same with electronic communications, is it intended to be between two people as a private conversation? i.e. Telephone or cell phone, yes (Yes, I know the courts have ruled otherwise for Cell Phones) or a broadcast like someone yelling down the street? i.e. on a radio (Which is what the Courts have called Cell Phone for technically it is a public media not a private land line through which the call is being made through). I lend to calling Cell Phone the same as a conversation between two people in a private room. On the other hand, a message sent via a radio (CB or FM band) is more like yelling down the street, thus no privacy in such conversations.

Thus, I believe the US Constitution is a "Living" thing, it has changed as the country has changed. It had to, given the background in which it was born, and the changes within its first 50 years of existence, it had to change. The legal profession became a true profession, not something someone did as a sideline. District Attorneys and Police forces had to be addressed. This was complicated by the Adoption of the post Civil War Amendments and those Amendments later expansion of extending the Bill of Rights to the States (i.e. a Bill of Rights written in a period without District Attorneys and Police, being applied to District Attorneys and Police). Even Scalia accepts that what was good in 1790, may not be good today. For example in the 1790s, it was still illegal to have for profit corporations unless chartered by the state and then for a limited purposes and limited life time only. Today's corporations, which can exist forever, can do anything is something the founding fathers would have rejected as inherently evil, which was the common law rule and a rule the founding fathers understood given the power of the East India Company and the Hudson Bay Company. Both existed at that time period, both were for profit corporation that could, and did do anything, could last forever and were viewed as hostile to American interests. Thus a living law and Constitution, to address changes not only in technology, but society itself.

Changes sometimes are good, the changes done since the New Deal, or bad, the changes done from the 1860s to Great Depression (The change in the law was huge during that time period, labor went from a presumption of one year employment to at will, rental properties went from one year in duration and payment at the end of the term, to at will and payment of rent at the start of the term, the three evil sisters of the common law, became entrenched in American law (None of these three sister existed prior to 1800, many states took decades to accept them, thus did NOT firmly became the "Common Law" in the US till the 1860-1930 period, The three evil sisters, are 1. The Assumption of the Risk, 2, The Fellow Servant Rule and 3. Contributory negligence.). Since the Great Depression we have seen the Courts slowly change the rules adopted 1800-1935 back to the Common Law Rules of the period prior to 1800. At will employment and housing is still with us but I can be hopeful for a change.


Side Note #1: Even today, if a stream of water flows through your land (i.e. does NOT start to flow on your property) it is viewed as a public road. Mother Jones used this rule in the 1890s, right after West Virginia passed its first law making it a crime to entered into any area with a No Trespassing Sign, to enter a coal mine area while standing in a cold mountain stream to talk to the men in the mine to join the Union.

Side note #2: More on the Sheriff's Patrol. In the South the Patrol was done till the Civil War. IT lead to the south's Militia reputation in the Revolution and the Civil War. In the Revolution the New England Militia was the best Militia in the World, capable of standing up to Regular troops but did little "Sheriff's Patrol" for it interfered with training. In the South, the Militia was among the worse Militia in the world during the Revolution, almost never capable of standing up to regulars. The reason was simple, doing the Sheriff's Patrol had higher priority then doing actual military training, the South was more worried about a Slave Revolt then any British invasion. Come the Civil War, the New England Militia had deteriorated due to the fact the Native Americans were no longer on its frontier, where the Natives had been for almost 200 years ending before 1820. Thus no need for the extensive Militia training so training declined, membership declined and by the 1840s most New England States wanted the fines for NOT attending as opposed to actual attendance, and thus converted the fines for not attending a drill to a head tax (i.e. the state wanted the MONEY more then it wanted its Militia trained).

On the other hand, in the South the Patrol survived till the Civil War, for the simple reason it was one of the main tools to keep the Slaves in their chains. It provided a pool of people who could enlist in quickly raised units, quickly trained (for use of a rifle was part of being in the Patrol), able to accept killing other humans (the Patrols were licensed to do so, and it was considered good practice to kill a slave every so often to keep the rest in fear, thus the killing was done by the Patrol, the owner was compensated by the State) by men who had worked together (But needed training to operate at a larger level then a 5-10 men gang) and armed not only with Rifles but knives and other weapons. This permitted the South to Field an Army quicker then the North, that was better then the North for the first six months of the war (But the time the first six months was gone, the North had more then caught up to the South in the quality of its troops, but it took more time AND once the North had an edge in training, it never really lost that edge, outside sources who report on both armies keep repeating this, the Northern Soldiers were better, but the South even today, maintain it had the better soldiers.


Side Note # 3: The Texas Rangers were founded in the 1823 by Stephen Austin. The Rangers of the 1830s-1860 period were a Military unit not a Police unit. The Rangers did do some Police work (as did the US Army of the same time period), but that was NOT its primary reason for existence. This Texas Rangers were dissolved in 1865. The Texas State Police where formed in 1871 as its replacement. The Texas State Police had a good reputations among African Americans and Americans of Mexican descent for it was created by the Reconstruction Government of Texas to protect both groups against the Whites of Texas who had supported Slavery during the Civil War. The Texas State Police was in turn replaced by what was called the Texas Rangers in 1873 as the Democrats (which was made up of mostly people who had supported the South in the Civil War) won control of the State Legislature (Many of the Old Texas State Police were kept on, but the leadership was replaced by people who supported discrimination against African Americans and Americans of Mexican descent. The Texas Rangers (and its predecessor the Texas State Police) are generally NOT considered what we call State Police today. The main reason is the main focus of both the Texas State Police (1871-1873) and the Texas Rangers (1873-1901) was the as a Military unit NOT as a Police force, i.e. fighting as a unit as oppose to acting on their own to go after criminals.

In 1901 the Rangers were reorganized, technically to make them more a Police Force, but this failed within a decade due to the outbreak of the Mexican Revolution, which lead to them returning in a pseudo military formation NOT a Law Enforcement Formation AND a massive enlargement in size (and they is strong evidence that the reforms never took hold, the Rangers continued as a Military Unit during this time period). The quick enlargement in size, and a return to its traditional role as a pseudo-military organization, lead to several mass killings of Mexicans and the scandals those massacres created. In 1919, due these scandals, the Texas Rangers were reorganized, again, back to what was proposed in 1901 (But retaining the tradition that all were appointed and served at the pleasure of the Governor). In 1932, the Rangers supported the wrong Democrat for Governor, and when the candidate they had opposed won, all the Rangers were fired. In 1935 the Rangers were again re-formed, but this time as a Civil Service Police Force (like the Pennsylvania State Police) and since that time has been a professional state police force. Thus the modern Texas Rangers only trace their history to 1935, but they retain the name of two earlier more Military organizations.

More on the Texas Rangers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Texas_Ranger_Division


Side Note #4: Through the relationship between New England and the East India Company is unclear, technically the East India company, except for the tea ship attacked in the Boston Tea Party, had no right to make any trips to the New World. On the other hand, the currents in the Atlantic is from the Slave/Gold Coast of Africa to the Caribbean, then along the Gulf stream as it flows past the American East Coast then to England. In many ways, due to the currents, it is as fast, if not faster to go from India to Africa to New England, then England, then to go from Africa to England. Thus it is possible, if not probable that the East India Company sent it ships to New England for retrofits, then to England, New England is on the way to England from India. This would explain why the Flag of the East India Company, 13 Stripes with a Union Jack in the upper left corner, is also called the "Grand Union Flag". No first hand report of it actually being flown by Washington, but often claim that it was (The only report can be interpreted two ways, as for something like the Grand Union Flag OR the British Union Jack, given that the British on seeing it at first assumed it was a sign of surrender, I lean to a British Union Jack for the US had NOT yet decided to go for independence).

The other reports of use of the "Grand Union Flay" could be a cover story, to explain why the flag was seen in New England during the American Revolution (i.e. flown by East India Company Ships, which continued to do illegal trade with New England even as England and the United States were at war). Being illegal, no records. Given the power of the East India Company, the British Army and Navy that controlled New York City 1776-1783 may have thought it as better to ignore then to fight, given the trade was with New England, the area of the Untied States even the British considered most pro-independence.

On the other hand, during the War of 1812, when the British decided to blockade the United States, they started in Georgia and worked they way up the coast. The reason for this was simple, the Duke of Wellington in 1812-1814 was still fighting the French in Spain. The Duke wanted a secure source of wheat for his men. That source was New England. Thus, even during the War of 1812, American Ships full of wheat would leave various New England ports, be intercepted off the coast by British Frigates and then escorted to Spain and back to New England. This is considered the start of America's love affair with wheat, prior to Wellington's Spanish campaign, even New England first choice of food was Corn. This could be a continuation of a possible exchange of goods between New England and the East India Company, or something new, I lean to it being a continuation, given that Wellington served in India for the East India Company from 1796 to 1806 and then went back home to England and then to Spain.

More on the East India Company:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

Duke of Wellington:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Wellesley,_1st_Duke_of_Wellington

TlalocW

(15,391 posts)
15. I worry
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:28 PM
Sep 2012

That the only supreme court justices that Obama will get to replace are going to be democrat-appointed ones. They tend to know when it's time to retire not only for personal reasons but also professionally - maybe they feel they can't do the job as well as they should, etc. Conservative ones seem to do everything possible to mainly stay there forever or more rarely wait for a republican in the White House.

TlalocW

bluesbassman

(19,379 posts)
22. But, but, that was just a one-off ruling, get over it!
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 04:55 PM
Sep 2012



SCALIA: Contentious? Well, I guess the one that, you know, created most-most waves of disagreement was Bush v. Gore, OK? That comes up all the time. And my usual response is get over it. MORGAN: Get over the possible corrupting of the American presidential system? MORGAN: Justice Scalia? SCALIA: Look it, I-my court didn't-didn't bring the case into the court. It was brought into the courts by Al Gore. He is the one who wanted courts to decide the question which-when Richard Nixon thought that he had lost the election because of chicanery in Chicago, he chose not to bring it into the courts. But Al Gore wanted the courts to decide it. So the only question in Bush v. Gore was whether the presidency would be decided by the Florida Supreme Court or by the United States Supreme Court. That was the only question, and that's not a hard one. MORGAN: No regrets? SCALIA: Oh, no regrets at all, especially since it's clear that the thing would have ended up the same way anyway. The press did extensive research into what would have happened if what Al Gore wanted done had been done county by county, and he would have lost anyway.

Scott emphasizes the fact that Scalia is clearly wrong about what would have happened "anyway." But there is so much ahistorical gibberish in that answer that there's plenty left over for the rest of us. And it all more clearly emphasizes Lemieux's point that Scalia's role in Bush v. Gore was purely that of a political partisan. If, 12 years after handing the country over to the Avignon Presidency, you're still dealing in cheap talking points that people mustered up in the extended autumn of 2000, you're tipping yourself off rather obviously.

1) Al Gore "Wanted The Courts To Decide": Actually, it was the Republicans who filed the first court case in Florida, and it was the Republicans and Jim Baker who wanted it fast-tracked through the federal court system, even though even some of them thought it was a longshot, because they clearly had no idea what a good Republican Antonin Scalia really was. Scalia, and the rest of the Supreme Court stepped in after Gore had won in the Florida state courts. The idea that Gore wanted "the courts" to decide this in the manner in which the Supreme Court hijacked the case is ludicrous.

2) The Nixon Didn't Go To Court Legend: This was bandied about almost from the start, and it is in a very narrow sense true. Nixon didn't go to court. That was because, in those halcyon days, not even the hardest of hardcore Republicans thought the Supreme Court ever would get involved in something that the Constitution clearly demonstrated was an area in which the states were sovereign. However, Thruston Morton, the Republican National chairman, mounted a nationwide campaign of recounts that went on well into the winter of 1960. Nixon, the noble loser, is a delightful fairy tale that conservatives tell their children at bedtime.



Read more: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/scalia-interview-10818968#ixzz25dB27uhk
 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
42. Lyin' Scalia
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 06:43 PM
Sep 2012

> It was brought into the courts by Al Gore.

And another lie from a repig. Cheney's campaign took it to the SCOTUS. Although technically correct that Gore started the process in Florida, America-hater Scalia's words imply that it was brought to the SCOTUS by Gore.

bluesbassman

(19,379 posts)
47. If Scalia really believed in strict USC interpretation, it would've been decided in the FL courts.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 07:02 PM
Sep 2012

So not ONLY is he a liar, but a hypocrite too. Along with being a scumbag, but that's another discussion.

aggiesal

(8,923 posts)
23. If he wants a strict interpretation of the Constitution . . .
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:00 PM
Sep 2012

Here is the 2nd Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

2 things come to mind:
1) What could we do if the 2nd Amendment had a strict interpretation?
Nobody would be able to have weapons unless they are part of the
militia. (Loosely speaking, the militia today would be the State Guard).

2) Ask Harry Whittington (the man that Scalia shot, and put into ICU)
f Scalia should be allowed with a gun in his hands?

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
26. OMFG, the fail is so amazingly strong with your post.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:04 PM
Sep 2012

Your "strict" interpretation is a misinterpretation to begin with. Last time I checked, "the right of the people" means "the right of the people," period.

Please, people such as yourself NEED to let this go, for the good of the party. You're wrong, end of story. Even the President agrees that you're wrong. Get over it and move the hell on, for the sake of the party.

aggiesal

(8,923 posts)
30. I guess we should just skip the first part of the amendment
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:20 PM
Sep 2012

When this was written, the founding fathers wanted the government
to be afraid of the citizens. But, they also didn't want standing armies
during peace time.
Thomas Jefferson thought that the State Militia that was formed in
Pennsylvania was the perfect example of how a militia was suppose
to be maintained, and wanted the rest of the country to follow PA's
model.

So, they allowed the citizens to keep their weapons, as long as they
were a part of the militia.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
33. Where in the amendment does it say only citizens that are part of the militia...
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:34 PM
Sep 2012

...can keep arms? Exactly nowhere. Sorry, but you are completely, 100% wrong in your interpretation. There was no "as long as they are part of the militia" to it at all.

Every other place in the constitution the phrase "the right of the people" is recognized as denoting an individual right, so to try and say the 2nd is denoting a collective one is beyond inconsistent. The reason the militia is mentioned at all is because the founding fathers felt a standing army to be a major threat to the security of any free state, thus to ensure that a "well regulated" (or well equipped) militia would be available, the individual right of the people to keep and bear arms need to be protected.

You should try giving The Federalist Papers a read sometime.

aggiesal

(8,923 posts)
36. We're having the same debate that the . . .
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:51 PM
Sep 2012

Supreme court justices have.
Because the justices have disagreed on whether the amendment
is intended to protect the right to bear arms as an individual right,
or as a component of the "well-regulated militia."

I don't believe this will be answered here.

You make valid points!

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
38. Actually, in the fairly recent Heller case in DC...
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:57 PM
Sep 2012

...even the dissenting judges agreed it was an individual right. But I digress....

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
43. Heller
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 06:45 PM
Sep 2012

Which overturned decades of precedent where the 2nd Amendment was held to be a group right.

Only a super-reich-wing court like the current one would make such a travesty decision as Heller.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
44. 2nd Amendment
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 06:48 PM
Sep 2012

> You make valid points!

No, he is just quoting from the NRA Talking Points manual.

The biggest purpose of the 2nd Amendment was, as you say, to codify a substitute for a Standing Army. Federalist Paper #29 specifies what "well-regulated" means, and paraphrased, it means "trained like an army".

F.P. #29 is also worth reading because it decries the idea of a bunch of untrained guys running around with guns! VERY PROPHETIC of the authors, wouldn't you say?

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
50. NRA talking points my ass.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 07:26 PM
Sep 2012

I'm not an NRA member, and while I think they do good with their safety programs, their political wing has it's head firmly up it's ass IMHO.

Here's some fun quotes for you:

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper No. 46.)

"...but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights..." (Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29.)

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." (Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8)

F.P. #29 also states very clearly that "Little more can reasonably be aimed at with the respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped."

So I agree, it is also very much worth reading.

EDIT: Ya know, this really isn't the forum for this. So I'm bowing out of this discussion.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
63. Wow
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 10:53 PM
Sep 2012

You cited Hamilton in favor of individual 2d amendment. That seems so wrong that I'm not sure what to say. I don't have my copy of the Papers with me, but I find it quite hard to believe that, in context, Hamilton would ever argue the absolute right of the people to be armed in a series of pamphlets that were aimed at getting the voters of a state, who were quite concerned with the interplay of their state and the federal government, to approve the constitution. It seems inherently illogical on its face.

Additionally, given the horror that he and Washington felt over Shay's Rebellion and their response to the Whiskey Rebellion, his own actions undercut the argument that he was in favor of the last bulwark of liberty being individual citizens. I suspect a closer reading of the Federalist Papers will show a man who was arguing in favor of the state militias as the last line of defense, not the unorganized citizenry. A large part of his and Madison's desire to create a stronger central government was their horror at "mob rule" in the states. I fail to see how these two men, quite respectful of the privilege of the elites, would ever support the modern idea of the 2d amendment.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
70. Cherry picking central!
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:05 AM
Sep 2012

> I'm not an NRA member,

Is there a law that says you can't parrot NRA Talking Points if you're not a member?



> F.P. #29 also states very clearly that "Little more can reasonably be aimed at with the respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped."

Of course, ending the same paragraph, is this: "This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."

And, just a bit later: "What reasonable cause of apprehension can be inferred from a power in the Union to prescribe regulations for the militia, and to command its services when necessary, while the particular States are to have the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS? If it were possible seriously to indulge a jealousy of the militia upon any conceivable establishment under the federal government, the circumstance of the officers being in the appointment of the States ought at once to extinguish it. There can be no doubt that this circumstance will always secure to them a preponderating influence over the militia."

Thus, once again, the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is hammered home - justifying the rationale of a substitute for a Standing Army. And the affirmation of "well-regulated" is repeated over & over. It must be under the order of officers appointed by the states

Let me know when the Rambo-wannabe rabble known as gun-relgionists are a substitute for a Standing Army.

EX500rider

(10,864 posts)
73. Lets try a different wording and see how it sounds..
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 01:59 PM
Sep 2012

"The liberty of the press being essential to the security of freedom in a state, the right of the people to publish shall not be infringed"

Do only the press have freedom of expression in that clause or do the people as a whole have the right?

onenote

(42,767 posts)
34. So do you think the part about a "well regulated militia" is just empty, meaningless surplusage?
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:35 PM
Sep 2012

If not, please explain how you would "strictly" interpret that language. Also, since you seem to think the Constitution is locked into its 18th Century mindset, what is your view on regulating individual ownership of "arms" that didn't exist in the mid-1700s. Machine guns? Grenade launchers? When and how do lines get drawn, unless of course someone is, heaven forbid, interpreting the words of the Constitution.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
37. You'll have to point to where I said I thought the constitution was "locked" into...
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:55 PM
Sep 2012

...an 18th century mindset.

And I never said "well regulate militia" was meaningless, only that it does not suddenly transform "the right of the people" into a collective right based on militia membership.

onenote

(42,767 posts)
58. Okay. Scratch the part about 18th Century mindset. But please answer this question:
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:02 PM
Sep 2012

Last edited Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:09 AM - Edit history (1)

Does the Second Amendment have a different meaning as written than it would if it simply stated that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed? If not, then you are saying the militia clause is meaningless. If not, how exactly does the militia clause change the meaning of the provision?

Also, as stated it refers both to the right to "keep" arms and the right to "bear" arms. Does that mean that no regulation of the carriage of weaponry is permitted -- school zones, where the president is speaking, etc. And can there be any limitation on a person keeping or bearing arms based on their age and/or any mental illness?

24601

(3,962 posts)
57. Change in technology doesn't require a change in the meaning. When adopted, it referred to the
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 08:17 PM
Sep 2012

individual weapon which would normally be carried by the individual soldier or militiaman. It should mean the same thing today even though the nature of the individual weapon has advanced.

It did not include crew-served weapons, special squad weapons carried by only a few A squad of 10 may have one squad machine-gunner but 9 others with the standard-issue rifles: Springfield in WWI, M1 in WWII, then the M14 and then the M16.

Side arms are issued to tank crews - the tank is the crew-served weapon. Artillery, from mortars to 8 inch guns are crew served weapons.

WMD were not prevalent in the days of the 2nd amendment, so scratch out Nuke, Chem, Bio, etc.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
68. The text refers to "arms" not "small arms".
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 07:49 AM
Sep 2012

It is interpretation that translates that single word into small arms. Even there the amendment has to be further interpreted, otherwise e.g. hand held SAM, RPGs, mortars, anti-tank weapons, etc are not subject to "infringement", another word requiring interpretation. The current interpretation for example infringes all over small arms "full auto" capabilities.

Scalia is full of shit. Strict constructionists simply want their particular intepretation of a frequently ambiguous, anachronistic, and contradictory document to be unchallenged.

24601

(3,962 posts)
75. Bear arms doesn't mean being sleeveless or undressed weapons. It refers to what a
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:12 PM
Sep 2012

person could bear and by weight, that translates into small arms. Most of what you described are crew served weapons. The final firing may be one individual, but the weapons crew lugs it all with the base units & ammo.

But why articulate an amendment process if amending the constitution is as simple as changing 5 minds? And If you are going to invest that power in a small group, only a moron would choose a small group of lawyers from elite schools?

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
64. He's quite right
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 10:56 PM
Sep 2012

The basic rule of constitutional construction is that every word in it the document, article, or clause means something. It is popular to read the militia clause out of the 2d amendment these days, but that does not make it right or desirable. If the militia clause can be read out of the constitution, why can't some enterprising right-wing justice do the same with the commerce clause or the 14th amendment?

SoapBox

(18,791 posts)
24. Talk about stuck in the past!
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:01 PM
Sep 2012

I'll go with what I heard at the convention last night...

Moving Forward...Not Back.

This guy is scary and crazy...and look at the power he has.

Tyrs WolfDaemon

(2,289 posts)
27. One big problem with Scalia is that he in essence has two votes on the bench
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:06 PM
Sep 2012

One is his and the other is Thomas' vote, only because he keeps Thomas' balls in a decorative jar on his desk.



A historical question that will undoubtedly be answered one day is: Did Thomas go to Scalia and simply offer his balls, already in the jar, or did Scalia have to remove them himself. I always thought that Thomas went to Scalia and offered his loyalty and Scalia ordered him to prove it by having Thomas cut his own balls off right there in his office.

 

bongbong

(5,436 posts)
46. Answer for you
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 06:53 PM
Sep 2012

Scalia took advantage of the fact that Clarence spends almost 100% of his time at the SCOTUS sleeping, whether he is in chambers or on the bench.

Fat Tony just walked up to the comatose body one day and softly muttered some hypnotic suggestions into his ear.

Tyrs WolfDaemon

(2,289 posts)
51. I just don't think Scalia is that sneaky
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 07:35 PM
Sep 2012

Plus, he probably thought of it as a blood sacrifice to himself.


Thomas: Oh great Antony Scalia, I come to you for help. You see, I have no brain.
Scalia: I know my child, I have waited for you to come to me. I will take you under my wing and tell you what to do and will think for you.
Thomas: Oh thank you great Scalia.
Scalia: But first, you must prove to me that you are ready to follow me with your whole being.
Thomas: Anything my Dark Lord
Scalia: Take this knife and remove your balls for me.
Thomas: But great sire, what if I wish to have children?
Scalia: Do not worry my son, I will provide that which you need for any offspring. After all, shouldn't they benefit from my greatness?
Thomas: Oh yes, my Dark Lord, of course. (This is where he disrobes and, grabbing his unit, removes his balls) Here you are great Lord, I present to you my greatest part.
Scalia (With a evil grin): I accept this as a show of your determination to follow me. Now go and stop the bleeding.
Thomas: Thank you for caring about my health, great Lord
Scalia: I'm more worried about the expensive run you are standing on. Now go!

radhika

(1,008 posts)
31. Scalia is a great example of something non-living, non-evolving....
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:23 PM
Sep 2012

For legal questions, he reads the 1789 Constitution, without later commentary or amendments. For moral questions, he defers to the Roman Catholic Pope or the Vatican's local enforcers, the Council of Bishops.

And this idiot is one of 9 humans with a lifetime appointment to the highest court in the land? That is the most f**ked part of this saga.

 

tabasco

(22,974 posts)
32. Justice Scalia represents a low point for the U.S. Supreme Court
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 05:33 PM
Sep 2012

and U.S. history. It is an indictment of our society that such a stupid cretin sits on our highest court.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
39. Like he cares
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 06:05 PM
Sep 2012

Scalia doesn't decide questions on the law. He just picks the end result he wants and then builds a legal figleaf to cover it. He barely even pretends to give a shit about the law anymore. Scalia is only a constructionalist when it suits him. When it doesn't (Citizen's United being the most egregious example), he's the most activist justice in history.

Here's hoping the asshole dies soon.

mikki35

(111 posts)
48. Me, at DU, criticizes notion of Scalia as a living human
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 07:07 PM
Sep 2012

Yet another incredibly long-lasting tribute to St Ronnie Raygun - the entire country held hostage to one ideologue faction's notion of the Constitution as perfection as it stands, not as it was intended - a guide to interpretation as people, nations, ideals, society, technology, radically changes with every passing day. NOT A SINGLE PERSON who signed the danged thing ever believed it to be perfect or intended it to be a rock around the neck of the nation. Its very much like fundamentalists believing every single word of their bible to be perfect. At least THEY have some convoluted logic behind their beliefs (supposedly written by God). What does Scalia have? Because he damned well SAID so, that's what.

Scairp

(2,749 posts)
55. I would never wish anything bad happens to anyone
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 07:57 PM
Sep 2012

Well, almost never (ex-spouses), but I wish he would get amnesia or something and forget he went to law school. Maybe he could believe he's a farmer and must grow the world's largest watermelon. That would keep him so very busy and no time for mischief. I'm just so tired of him and meanness. I hope I live long enough to see him retire, or die, however he leaves the court.

DallasNE

(7,403 posts)
59. Bush v. Gore & Citizens United
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:17 PM
Sep 2012

I agree with Scalia when he says "that's not what we do anymore" otherwise neither of these cases could have so ruled based on an "originalist interpretation" of the Constitution. Of course nobody expects Scalia to walk the walk.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
60. Under a strict interpretation, no court decides what the
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 09:22 PM
Sep 2012

Constitution says. That is nowhere in the Constitution. That was invented in Marbury v. Madison. Under a strict construction, juries decided both fact and law. Scalia, under his own doctrine, only has power to interpret legislation and review lower courts doing the same. Yet time and time again, he asserts the power to overturn the legislature. Clearly the limited government of strict interpretation does not have this expressly written in the Constitution.

24601

(3,962 posts)
76. Not exactly accurate. The Constitution Article III, Section 2 requires the USSC to exercise
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 08:21 PM
Sep 2012

original jurisdiction as follows: "In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction"

kiranon

(1,727 posts)
62. But corporations are people and their money is free speech?
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 10:38 PM
Sep 2012

Can't find that in the Constitution. IMHO Scalia has forgotten more than he ever knew about the law in order to reach conclusions predetermined by his religious/political point of view.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
65. Hey Tony, this is a Common Law country, you dipshit.
Wed Sep 5, 2012, 11:43 PM
Sep 2012

that is incompatible with "strict constructionism".

VPStoltz

(1,295 posts)
66. How does he account for all the amendments after the Bill of Rights?
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 12:14 AM
Sep 2012

Were they added by someone who won a prize?
Or were they added to deal with the "living America?"

Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
72. That's why Corporations were counted as 3/5th persons for Congressional representation
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 11:16 AM
Sep 2012

That was in the Constitution too, right?

I can't at for the moment remember which amendment to the constitution gave Coorporations full personhood though.

Green_Lantern

(2,423 posts)
74. The Constitution isn't that straightforward...it needs interpretation..
Thu Sep 6, 2012, 02:26 PM
Sep 2012

The Constitution should be broken down into two parts: 1.) parts that give powers to govt 2.) parts that protect the rights of people.

As far as govt. power...Even Alexander Hamilton said the Constitution gave implied powers to the govt. to carryout its specified functions.

On rights the 9th amendment clearly states that the plain meaning of the Constitution isn't enough to determine what rights we have.

I can't imagine Jefferson saying we only have the specified list of rights.

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
77. Interpretations of issues in the Constitution change becaue some were left vague
Fri Sep 7, 2012, 01:55 PM
Sep 2012

intentionally - such as "cruel and unusual punishment."

Other ideas are very specific, such as the miminum age for a Presidential candidate.

And yes, because it can be amendended, it is a living document that adapts with large shifts in our society.

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