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left-of-center2012

(34,195 posts)
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:19 AM Dec 2018

Judge rules cops, schools had no duty to shield students in Parkland shooting lawsuit

Source: The Hill

A federal judge on Monday ruled that Broward County schools and the Sheriff’s Office were not legally obligated to protect and shield students in the shooting that occurred at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., last February, according to a report in the South Florida Sun Sentinel.

The outlet reports that U.S. District Judge Beth Bloom tossed out a lawsuit brought by 15 students who survived the school shooting that argued the Sheriff’s Office and the Broward school district had a legal duty to protect them during the massacre.

Bloom, however, reportedly ruled that the defendants were not constitutionally obligated to protect students who were not in custody.

“As previously stated, for such a duty to exist on the part of defendants, plaintiffs would have to be considered to be in custody,” she continued.

Read more: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/421823-judge-rules-cops-and-schools-had-no-duty-to-shield-students-in

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Judge rules cops, schools had no duty to shield students in Parkland shooting lawsuit (Original Post) left-of-center2012 Dec 2018 OP
Yep. marybourg Dec 2018 #1
But some untrained NRA good guys with guns will answer the call of duty IronLionZion Dec 2018 #2
so the kids should have defended themselves then AlexSFCA Dec 2018 #3
I think its more accurate to say that the schools should have had some sort of setup to cstanleytech Dec 2018 #17
Basically. Law enforcement does not have a constitutional duty to protect you. Calista241 Dec 2018 #64
So much for in loco parentis flor-de-jasmim Dec 2018 #4
The school becomes the stewards of the children, in lieu of parents. So, they should be obligated. TheBlackAdder Dec 2018 #13
So what do they get paid for? hatrack Dec 2018 #5
They should just put a cop uniform on a mannequin... Dave Starsky Dec 2018 #18
To educate not defend for the school Drahthaardogs Dec 2018 #27
No surprise here DetroitLegalBeagle Dec 2018 #6
I did not know that. PoindexterOglethorpe Dec 2018 #29
So, exactly why do we pay to have police departments? alwaysinasnit Dec 2018 #39
To investigate crimes and enforce the law. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #44
That must have been given you a constant knot in your stomach. I just can't help thinking that alwaysinasnit Dec 2018 #65
There it is. jayfish Dec 2018 #7
And I thought their job was to protect and serve. Silly me. pazzyanne Dec 2018 #34
Yes, that's their JOB. But that's not the same marybourg Dec 2018 #71
I believe Sudsy Dec 2018 #8
The effect it would have had on schools is chilling ripcord Dec 2018 #43
The judge really didn't have a choice at all. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #45
Nine of those killed were under the age of 16 therefore subject to mandatory attendance at LoisB Dec 2018 #9
That was my thought. They couldn't choose to be elsewhere. catrose Dec 2018 #11
The school had custody, sarisataka Dec 2018 #23
This seems strange to me. ananda Dec 2018 #10
It's true. christx30 Dec 2018 #12
This is true, but somewhat misleading metalbot Dec 2018 #76
Does anyone fully understand mickswalkabout41 Dec 2018 #14
This isn't new, its been this way for near 40 years. DetroitLegalBeagle Dec 2018 #15
Since at least 1858, by my research. X_Digger Dec 2018 #60
Thank you for serving. akraven Dec 2018 #56
so why do we have police then? beachbum bob Dec 2018 #16
Ticketing is a great local revenue stream. Only reason left for their existence in current form. LanternWaste Dec 2018 #40
The job of the police ManiacJoe Dec 2018 #66
"To Protect and Serve".......not so much. AJT Dec 2018 #19
Better scrape those 'To Protect and To Serve' ... GeorgeGist Dec 2018 #20
Justice not Served ... GeorgeGist Dec 2018 #21
Not the least bit surprising sarisataka Dec 2018 #22
I don't completely disagree with this SpankMe Dec 2018 #24
This judge has weaponized the Second Amendment. He says, in effect: American children attend ancianita Dec 2018 #25
Legally, it totally will stand. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #46
... there should be a compelling constitutional right-to-life interest for millions of children ancianita Dec 2018 #50
There *is* no 'right to life', under law friendly_iconoclast Dec 2018 #51
How do you know that. ancianita Dec 2018 #52
Because there's never been a Supreme Court decision declaring one friendly_iconoclast Dec 2018 #53
Are you a lawyer? ancianita Dec 2018 #54
No, are you? If so, please let us know where non-lawyers can read about this 'right to life'... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2018 #55
How is anyone, then, lawyer or layperson, to interpret the 14th Amendment. ancianita Dec 2018 #57
You've stated that something exists, but can't provide an example of it in law or USSC decision friendly_iconoclast Dec 2018 #58
California, by STATE LAW, says they don't have to protect you X_Digger Dec 2018 #61
The STATE LAW of slavery didn't have to protect you, either. ancianita Dec 2018 #70
There is no 'right to life' in that the government must protect *you*. X_Digger Dec 2018 #75
To Protect and Serve for f sake. It cannot be more clear. JDC Dec 2018 #26
That's just an advertisement slogan. christx30 Dec 2018 #68
Seems this is a good argument for overturning truancy laws exboyfil Dec 2018 #28
Some friends homeschool their child because of school shootings Jake Stern Dec 2018 #31
If they were really worried about their kids safety they would keep them out.. EX500rider Dec 2018 #36
bam. rampartc Dec 2018 #69
So all the people wh say we should arm the teachers are wrong. PoindexterOglethorpe Dec 2018 #30
It is probably good that it is not legal to do so. ManiacJoe Dec 2018 #67
This is long standing law. Scruffy1 Dec 2018 #32
"the policman only had a pistol, anyhow. No match for an AR-15." FiveGoodMen Dec 2018 #33
Thoughts and prayers mickswalkabout41 Dec 2018 #48
So what about this? pazzyanne Dec 2018 #35
Because in most cases the cops job is law enforcement....not protecting you. EX500rider Dec 2018 #37
You're absolutely right about the backup rules. Jedi Guy Dec 2018 #49
Oink oink ansible Dec 2018 #38
This is well-established law. Police exist to protect society in general NickB79 Dec 2018 #41
There are about 100,000 schools in the US. Cold War Spook Dec 2018 #42
Current active shooter protocol is to engage immediately DetroitLegalBeagle Dec 2018 #62
This message was self-deleted by its author geralmar Dec 2018 #47
This is long settled law. The police have no obligation to protect you, regardless of the decal. X_Digger Dec 2018 #59
Judge's interpretation makes sense; otherwise, any hurt by a criminal could sue police for not Hoyt Dec 2018 #63
"they can't even correctly interpret the language in the Second Amendment." EX500rider Dec 2018 #72
With all the crud going on nowadays, you are worried about your gunz. Hoyt Dec 2018 #73
Why would I be worried about my "gunz" (I don't think that is a word btw) EX500rider Dec 2018 #74
if the law requires you to go to school, they have a requirement to keep you safe. demigoddess Dec 2018 #77

IronLionZion

(45,451 posts)
2. But some untrained NRA good guys with guns will answer the call of duty
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:24 AM
Dec 2018

because they've played Call of Duty video games, same diff. Regardless of the question, the answer is always more guns.

cstanleytech

(26,293 posts)
17. I think its more accurate to say that the schools should have had some sort of setup to
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:24 AM
Dec 2018

reduce the risk.
I do not say prevent because that's not possible due to how easy it is for people to get guns so until we can change that precautions are needed.
For example installing security doors that section off the schools as well as reinforced steel doors for all school rooms that can be secured from the inside are things that schools should look at doing.
Some areas might also might want to look at installing police sub stations inside or near the schools.

Dave Starsky

(5,914 posts)
18. They should just put a cop uniform on a mannequin...
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:26 AM
Dec 2018

And have it stand in a window in the front lobby.

Kind of like those plastic owls people use to keep pigeons off the roof.

DetroitLegalBeagle

(1,924 posts)
6. No surprise here
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:46 AM
Dec 2018

Its been repeatedly held by Federal courts, including SCOTUS, that the Police have absolutely no duty to protect you.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,862 posts)
29. I did not know that.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:16 PM
Dec 2018

So in the end, everyone is responsible only for him or herself.

Guess arming teachers isn't what to do, but arm the students. And I'm not even being sarcastic here.

Jedi Guy

(3,193 posts)
44. To investigate crimes and enforce the law.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 09:15 PM
Dec 2018

They can protect you if they're on scene when things start popping off, but the courts have determined that they're not liable if they fail to do so. Their purpose is to enforce the law, investigate crimes, and (ideally at least) prevent crimes. As a practical matter, I think most LEOs will at least attempt to protect people who are in danger.

There's that old saying, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away." Similarly, there's, "Order a pizza and call a cop, then see which one arrives first."

Speaking as a former police dispatcher, you'd be surprised how thinly they're spread out there sometimes. When I was on the job, there was a very large housing development to the southeast of the main part of the city. When it was built in the late 90s, the developers were assured that a substation would be built in or near the neighborhood. That never wound up happening, so it was entirely possible that if something bad had gone down in that area, it might've taken officers 5-10 minutes to arrive. I hated working that frequency for that exact reason.

alwaysinasnit

(5,066 posts)
65. That must have been given you a constant knot in your stomach. I just can't help thinking that
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 12:50 AM
Dec 2018

the dumb-ass "war against drugs" policy, by prioritizing "drug crimes," has definitely skewed law enforcement priorities. Incentivizing drug-related arrests/convictions has had some unintended consequences, including not investigating crimes deemed low/no priority.

pazzyanne

(6,556 posts)
34. And I thought their job was to protect and serve. Silly me.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 02:35 PM
Dec 2018

"Policing Mandate. The function of the EPS is to provide protection of life and property, preservation of public peace, prevention and detection of crime, regulation of non-criminal conduct as required by law, and perform services incumbent upon police as a social and community agency." Seems to me this covers what police should be doing.

marybourg

(12,633 posts)
71. Yes, that's their JOB. But that's not the same
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 12:57 PM
Dec 2018

as saying they have a duty to protect every person in every situation, such that a failure to do so gives rise to a right to compensation.

Sudsy

(58 posts)
8. I believe
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:50 AM
Dec 2018

the judge had little choice other than to rule the way she did. Ruling in favor of the plaintiffs would have set a precedent that public institutions are liable for loss from all crimes within their jurisdictions.

ripcord

(5,408 posts)
43. The effect it would have had on schools is chilling
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 08:50 PM
Dec 2018

I don't want to see kids attend what would in effect be a reverse prison, a hardened facility with armed guards designed to keep people out.

Jedi Guy

(3,193 posts)
45. The judge really didn't have a choice at all.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 09:17 PM
Dec 2018

Precedent has already been set by SCOTUS that police have no obligation to protect individual people. If the judge had ruled otherwise here, it would've been overturned on appeal eventually.

LoisB

(7,206 posts)
9. Nine of those killed were under the age of 16 therefore subject to mandatory attendance at
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:52 AM
Dec 2018

school. I would argue that in effect they were "in custody". Of course, I'm not a lawyer but this ruling makes no sense to me.

sarisataka

(18,663 posts)
23. The school had custody,
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:41 AM
Dec 2018

Not the police, therefore the police had no duty to protect the students.

Courts have ruled several time police are only obliged to protect those whom they have under arrest.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
12. It's true.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:12 AM
Dec 2018

A criminal could stab you in front of a cop, and the cop is under no obligation to protect you. As long as the cop arrests the criminal after you are killed, he’s fulfilled his obligation to society.
This is why some people want to own guns. The only person that is invested in keeping you from getting killed by some meth addict wanting money, is you.

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/7ezca3/why_the_cops_wont_help_you_when_youre_getting/

metalbot

(1,058 posts)
76. This is true, but somewhat misleading
Thu Dec 20, 2018, 10:14 AM
Dec 2018

A police officer is not criminally or civilly liable for failing to protect you. He isn't going to be prosecuted, and you can't sue him.

However, police departments absolutely do have policies that obligate police officers to protect. In your scenario, a police officer might not be legally obligated to protect you, but his department policy says he is, and he's going to be fired for failing to act.

As a concrete example, after the Columbine shooting, most departments completely rewrote the protocols for dealing with active shooters, and police officers are trained and instructed to engage the shooter. Armed police officers who elect to shelter in place during a shooting are generally fired, as was the police officer who failed to act during the Parkland shooting.

mickswalkabout41

(145 posts)
14. Does anyone fully understand
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:15 AM
Dec 2018

The implications of this ruling. The path of office I took to serve and protect just went down the shit hole. Police officers are no longer obligated to save lives. And are now protected from doing so by precident.

DetroitLegalBeagle

(1,924 posts)
15. This isn't new, its been this way for near 40 years.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:19 AM
Dec 2018

The SCOTUS ruling that effectively said there is no duty to protect dates back to 1981 with Warren v DC.

akraven

(1,975 posts)
56. Thank you for serving.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:53 PM
Dec 2018

Our cops here rock. So do our State Troopers.

Most cops are there to serve. You can't read minds; protect is a given IF you know the area. Locals do.

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
66. The job of the police
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 04:58 AM
Dec 2018

is to investigate crimes after they occur and arrest the suspects for trial.

This is how the police protects society as a whole. The protection of the individual members of society is the job of the individuals themselves. There is nothing new here.

SpankMe

(2,957 posts)
24. I don't completely disagree with this
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:57 AM
Dec 2018

If I'm in a courthouse or a social security office or a post office, I can understand not being able to sue the government if I'm shot by another citizen.

But in this particular case, school is compulsory and these are minor children. It's effectively a form of custody.

We need more job killing regulation to fix this.

ancianita

(36,071 posts)
25. This judge has weaponized the Second Amendment. He says, in effect: American children attend
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:03 PM
Dec 2018

"public" schools -- a public institution -- at their own risk.

What the fuckin' FUCK.

How is LAW ENFORCEMENT exonerated -- and immunized -- from enforcing public safety.

Legally, this absolutely cannot stand.

Jedi Guy

(3,193 posts)
46. Legally, it totally will stand.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 09:21 PM
Dec 2018

The precedent has already been set in a SCOTUS ruling a long time ago. The only way it'll change is if SCOTUS hears another case and reverses the precedent set in the earlier ruling. I doubt they'd even take up the case, let alone overturn established precedent.

ancianita

(36,071 posts)
50. ... there should be a compelling constitutional right-to-life interest for millions of children
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:13 PM
Dec 2018

over the interests of those who define "security" in schools.

There is no practical reason for "security" personnel if they exist only to keep property safe, or to enforce obedience training (order) through crowd control of juveniles.

Parents should demand to see written disclaimers by school districts, citing Supreme Court decisions you note, about the limits of "security" personnel re the protection of their children.

Parents should at least use recourse to refuse school district use of their property tax money for security services that say parents have no reasonable expectation for their children's constitutional right to life to be secured by such "security."

Even if education itself is not a fundamental constitutional right, students, as citizens, should not lose their constitutional rights, especially their right to life, at the school door.









 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
53. Because there's never been a Supreme Court decision declaring one
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:47 PM
Dec 2018

Therefore, the concept doesn't exist (in law-of course the *idea* exists)

 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
55. No, are you? If so, please let us know where non-lawyers can read about this 'right to life'...
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:52 PM
Dec 2018

...and how it might apply to this case.

ancianita

(36,071 posts)
57. How is anyone, then, lawyer or layperson, to interpret the 14th Amendment.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:13 PM
Dec 2018

Are you saying it's never been used in any court decision re people being deprived of their right to life?

Really?

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


The question addressed by the court, as I understand it, is what are "security" personnel obliged to secure. If it's any thing, and not people, then I ask what good are security to the people who pay for the schooling of their children.

In every state, every principal's duty, first and foremost, is the safety of all people within their school. And so I ask what they justify the cost of security personnel for, if not for the safety of the children in their charge. Public schools are run by states which are subject to constitutional law.

If you don't like what I'm asking, just back off with the no-content snark, since it's apparently not a constitutional question to you.
 

friendly_iconoclast

(15,333 posts)
58. You've stated that something exists, but can't provide an example of it in law or USSC decision
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:22 PM
Dec 2018

Your points about the uselessness of school 'security' in this case are good, but other posters have pointed
out multiple cases where there is found to have been no 'duty of care':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Town_of_Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales

Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005),s a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court ruled, 7–2, that a town and its police department could not be sued under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 for failing to enforce a restraining order, which had led to the murder of a woman's three children by her estranged husband.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County


DeShaney v. Winnebago County, 489 U.S. 189 (1989), was a case decided by the Supreme Court of the United States on February 22, 1989. The court held that a state government agency's failure to prevent child abuse by a custodial parent does not violate the child's right to liberty for the purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
61. California, by STATE LAW, says they don't have to protect you
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:41 PM
Dec 2018

California Tort Claims Act (Gov. Code, § 810 et seq.), particularly section 845, which states: "Neither a public entity nor a public employee is liable for failure to establish a police department or otherwise provide police protection service or, if police protection service is provided, for failure to provide sufficient police protection service."

Legally, this is long settled law.

ancianita

(36,071 posts)
70. The STATE LAW of slavery didn't have to protect you, either.
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 08:41 AM
Dec 2018

"Long settled" can also equal unjust law, as MLK said.
We're trying to have a civilized society here.
It's human development.

Just because the social contract is down, doesn't mean it's out.


I have a right to not be killed, which is unprotected in the state of nature but can be protected under a social contract which establishes a government that would punish someone who killed me.

So when the Declaration of Independence refers to the rights of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" (a paraphrasing of Locke's life, liberty and property) what it is saying is you have a right to not be killed by other people.

That we create just governments, deriving their powers from the consent of the governed, to protect that right -- to stop other PEOPLE from taking it away.

We no longer exist in the state of nature, where people can do what they want; we have a government which protects those rights that are supposed to be guaranteed to everyone which includes the right to continue living.

Lots of "your-children-are-your-lookout-not-ours" societies are perfectly legal, too, where human development is simply an industry, not an institution.

What got ruled on applies less to the human development of children and more to employees in a training center in some fascist jungle, or barrio where legal rights in the public domain are no better than the natural rights of survival of the fittest. So when the 2A Big Hunters show up, all bets are off.





X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
75. There is no 'right to life' in that the government must protect *you*.
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 08:53 PM
Dec 2018

The fourteenth amendment, as you've quoted elsewhere, is a protection from the government, not from each other- just like the rest of the bill of rights.

The government shall not deprive you of life without due process. That doesn't 'grant' you shit.

See the preamble to the bill of rights:

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution


The whole document is a 'the government shall not' document, not a 'the people can' document. Abuse of whose powers? Declaratory and restrictive clauses against whom? The government. Fucking duh. At first it only applied to the federal government, then was applied to the states. It doesn't apply to you and me, dear.

I don't owe you a right to practice religion. I can tell you to get the fuck out of my house when you start proselytizing. I can tell you that you have to empty your pockets before coming into my house. That isn't an infringement of the fourth amendment. Facebook could say that they don't want their paltform used by people who believe in communism, or people with red hair, or men, or methodists. They don't have an obligation under law to protect freedom of expression, or religion.

DU could say that they don't want people from Zanadu. Zanadu'ians couldn't raise a case of discrimination- DU isn't the government, or an arm of the state. DU can (and does!) kick people out, depriving them of 'liberty' to post, without due process. So not a violation of the 14th.

You won't find a case where a (non-laughable) argument is made that one person violated another's rights as protected by the bill of rights.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
68. That's just an advertisement slogan.
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 06:13 AM
Dec 2018

And it’s no more true than GE’s “we bring good things to life”.
Well, the job of the police is to protect and serve society as a whole, and not the individual. When someone is murdered, society is protected and served by arresting, prosecuting, and jailing the perpetrator. But the individual that was murdered is not more important than society.

exboyfil

(17,863 posts)
28. Seems this is a good argument for overturning truancy laws
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:49 PM
Dec 2018

I live in a state with very liberal homeschooling laws. My kids are grown, but I sure would consider schooling them at home.

Jake Stern

(3,145 posts)
31. Some friends homeschool their child because of school shootings
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:18 PM
Dec 2018

They agreed after Sandy Hook that if they had a child they'd homeschool them. And they have.

They do meetups with other home school parents at parks and Chuck-E-Cheese, etc. for socialization.

This is part of why I get so ticked when people paint all homeschoolers as ultra-fundie nutjobs.

EX500rider

(10,849 posts)
36. If they were really worried about their kids safety they would keep them out..
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 03:58 PM
Dec 2018

....of the car, not school.

Statistically speaking the school is way safer then the auto the parents drove them to school in.

There are over 98,000 public schools and over 34,000 private schools, with about 51 million students enrolled K-12.
Three students were killed in 2016; four in 2017.

About 2,000 children under 16 die every year in traffic collisions.

Even if you avg it at 10 killed a year in school, that is still 200 times less then the traffic deaths.

Scruffy1

(3,256 posts)
32. This is long standing law.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:26 PM
Dec 2018

The judge is correct. I was amzed the case was ever filed. Most police departments have some pretty strong rules about waiting for back up in a potentially violent situation. As far as I know the policman only had a pistol, anyhow. No match for an AR-15.

FiveGoodMen

(20,018 posts)
33. "the policman only had a pistol, anyhow. No match for an AR-15."
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:44 PM
Dec 2018

And the students -- who were left to fend for themselves -- what were they carrying?

pazzyanne

(6,556 posts)
35. So what about this?
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 02:42 PM
Dec 2018

"The police officer assigned to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School resigned Thursday, under investigation for failing to enter the building as a gunman opened fire and killed 17 people.
Sheriff Scott Israel said Deputy Scot Peterson should have “went in. Addressed the killer. Killed the killer.” Video footage showed Peterson did none of that, Israel said

Maybe everyone needs to have the same information. And just to be clear, if this is the case, why do we have armed police on our streets? Street dressing?

EX500rider

(10,849 posts)
37. Because in most cases the cops job is law enforcement....not protecting you.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 04:00 PM
Dec 2018

.....but the school cops job IS protecting the students.

Jedi Guy

(3,193 posts)
49. You're absolutely right about the backup rules.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 09:27 PM
Dec 2018

When I was a police dispatcher, we were trained to offer a backup unit unless it was something completely innocuous, like responding to a traffic accident (though sometimes those went south, as well). When dealing with any potentially violent/dangerous situation, it was always at least two officers. If one of them arrived before the other, he or she would stand off and wait until their backup arrived.

NickB79

(19,253 posts)
41. This is well-established law. Police exist to protect society in general
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 06:57 PM
Dec 2018

Protect and serve applies to the citizens of the city they work for, but not to any SPECIFIC citizen.

 

Cold War Spook

(1,279 posts)
42. There are about 100,000 schools in the US.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 08:25 PM
Dec 2018

The average wage for a police officer working the usual school year is $25,000 that is $2.5 billion a year for one police officer per school. One police officer is probably not going to stop a person with an AR-15 since the officer would probably the first to die, at least that is the first person I would kill. So how many police officers would be the correct amount to have?

DetroitLegalBeagle

(1,924 posts)
62. Current active shooter protocol is to engage immediately
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 12:11 AM
Dec 2018

Alone or not. Has been this way since Columbine. The reason being that the majority of active shooters kill themselves or surrender as soon as they face "credible resistance", that is guns aimed or firing at them. The remaining few typically get killed by responding officers. Facing down a person with a rifle with just a handgun isnt ideal, but it's not the death sentence many here make it out to be. Most active shooters have little to no training. Shooting into a crowd of unarmed people doesn't take any skill or competence and very little precise aiming. Taking on another armed person, one with training, is entirely different. This is why most give up one way or another when facing armed resistance.

Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
59. This is long settled law. The police have no obligation to protect you, regardless of the decal.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:35 PM
Dec 2018

In multiple states, at the local, state, and federal level, police have not been held accountable for failing to protect individuals. Let's examine some of the cases.

South v. Maryland (1858)

Cocking v. Wade (1896)

Riss v. City of New York - 1967

http://lawschool.courtroomview.com/acf_cases/10107-riss-v-new-york

Brief Fact Summary

Plaintiff was harassed by a rejected suitor, who claimed he would kill or seriously injure her if she dated someone else. Plaintiff repeatedly asked for police protection and was ignored. After the news of her engagement, the plaintiff was again threatened and called the police to no avail. The next day, a thug, sent by the rejected suitor, partially blinded the plaintiff and disfigured her face.

Rule of Law and Holding

The municipality does not have a duty to provide police protection to an individual. It has a duty to the public as a whole, but no one in particular.


Keane v. Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1st Dist. 1968)

Silver v. Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (Minn. 1969)

Antique Arts Corp. v. City of Torrance (1974)

Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal. App.3d 6 (1st Dist. 1975)

The first amended complaint alleged in substance: On September 4, 1972, plaintiff's decedent, Ruth Bunnell, telephoned the main office of the San Jose Police Department and reported that her estranged husband, Mack Bunnell, had called her, saying that he was coming to her residence to kill her. She requested immediate police aid; the department refused to come to her aid at that time, and asked that she call the department again when Mack Bunnell had arrived.

Approximately 45 minutes later, Mack Bunnell arrived at her home and stabbed her to death. The police did not arrive until 3 a.m., in response to a call of a neighbor. By this time Mrs. Bunnell was dead.
...
(1) Appellant contends that his complaint stated a cause of action for wrongful death under Code of Civil Procedure section 377, and that the cause survived under Probate Code section 573. The claim is barred by the provisions of the California Tort Claims Act (Gov. Code, § 810 et seq.), particularly section 845, which states: "Neither a public entity nor a public employee is liable for failure to establish a police department or otherwise provide police protection service or, if police protection service is provided, for failure to provide sufficient police protection service."


Sapp v. Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla. App. 1st Dist.), cert. denied 354 So.2d 985 (Fla. 1977); Ill. Rec. Stat. 4-102

Jamison v. Chicago, 48 Ill. App. 3d 567 (1st Dist. 1977)

Wuetrich V. Delia, 155 N.J. Super. 324, 326, 382, A.2d 929, 930 cert. denied 77 N.J. 486, 391 A.2d 500 (1978)

Stone v. State, 106 Cal.App.3d 924, 165 Cal Rep. 339 (1980)

Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C.App 1981)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

The Court, however, does not agree that defendants owed a specific legal duty to plaintiffs with respect to the allegations made in the amended complaint for the reason that the District of Columbia appears to follow the well established rule that official police personnel and the government employing them are not generally liable to victims of criminal acts for failure to provide adequate police protection. This uniformly accepted rule rests upon the fundamental principle that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen.


Chapman v. Philadelphia, 290 Pa. Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753 (Penn. 1981)

Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982)

Davidson v. Westminster, 32 Cal.3d 197, 185, Cal. Rep. 252; 649 P.2d 894 (1982)

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11611213653413829948&q=Davidson+v.+City+of+Westminster&hl=en&as_sdt=2,44&as_vis=1

Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C.App. 1983) (Only those in custody are deserving of individual police protection)

Morris v. Musser, 84 Pa. Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937 (1984)

Calogrides v. Mobile, 475 So. 2d 560 (Ala. 1985); Cal Govt. Code 845

Ashburn v. Anne Arundel County (1986)

In 1986, the Maryland Court of Appeals was again presented in Ashburn v. Anne Arundel County with an action in civil liability involving the failure of law enforcement to enforce the law. In this case, a police officer, Freeberger, found an intoxicated man in a running pickup truck sitting in front of convenience store. Although he could have arrested the driver, the police officer told the driver to pull the truck over to the side of the lot and to discontinue driving that evening. Instead, shortly after the law enforcement officer left, the intoxicated driver pulled out of the lot and collided with a pedestrian, Ashburn, who as a direct result of the accident sustained severe injuries and lost a leg. After Ashburn brought suit against the driver, Officer Freeberger, the police department, and Anne Arundel County, the trial court dismissed charges against the later three, holding Freeberger owed no special duty to the plaintiff, the county was immune from liability, and that the police department was not a separate legal entity.
...
The Court of Appeals further noted the general tort law rule that, "absent a 'special relationship' between police and victim, liability for failure to protect an individual citizen against injury caused by another citizen does not rely against police officers." Using terminology from the public duty doctrine, the court noted that any duty the police in protecting the public owed was to the general public and not to any particular citizen..


DeShaney v. Winnebago County, 489 U.S. 189 (1989)

Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales

During divorce proceedings, Jessica Gonzales, a resident of Castle Rock, Colorado, obtained a restraining order against her husband on June 4, 1999, requiring him to remain at least 100 yards from her and their three daughters except during specified visitation time. On June 22, at approximately 5:15 pm, her husband took possession of the three children in violation of the order. Gonzales called the police at approximately 7:30 pm, 8:30 pm, 10:10 pm, and 12:15 am on June 23, and visited the police station in person at 12:40 am on June 23, 1999. However, the police took no action, despite the husband's having called Gonzales prior to her second call to the police and informing her that he had the children with him at an amusement park in Denver, Colorado. At approximately 3:20 am on June 23, 1999, the husband appeared at the Castle Rock police station and instigated a fatal shoot-out with the police. A search of his vehicle revealed the corpses of the three daughters, whom the husband had killed prior to his arrival.
...
The Court's majority opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia held that enforcement of the restraining order was not mandatory under Colorado law; were a mandate for enforcement to exist, it would not create an individual right to enforcement that could be considered a protected entitlement under the precedent of Board of Regents of State Colleges v. Roth; and even if there were a protected individual entitlement to enforcement of a restraining order, such entitlement would have no monetary value and hence would not count as property for the Due Process Clause.

Justice David Souter wrote a concurring opinion, using the reasoning that enforcement of a restraining order is a process, not the interest protected by the process, and that there is not due process protection for processes.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
63. Judge's interpretation makes sense; otherwise, any hurt by a criminal could sue police for not
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 12:19 AM
Dec 2018

protecting them.

Police do shield and protect people everyday, they just aren’t “responsible to protect” in this context.

As we see too often, there are also police who go out of their way to hurt people, usually based on race. They ought to be indicted and sued.

Gun-lovers cite this interpretation — police are required to protect — to rationalize their guns and toting in public. Of course, they can’t even correctly interpret the language in the Second Amendment.

EX500rider

(10,849 posts)
72. "they can't even correctly interpret the language in the Second Amendment."
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 04:03 PM
Dec 2018

You mean the interpretation shared by the US Govt, the Supreme Court and the Democratic Party? They all agree it is a individual right not based on any membership in a militia.

EX500rider

(10,849 posts)
74. Why would I be worried about my "gunz" (I don't think that is a word btw)
Wed Dec 19, 2018, 08:46 PM
Dec 2018

I have a Relics & Curios collection of WWII and pre bolt action rifles, don't see them going anywhere.
Just pointing out your interpretation is very much in the minor and not held by any branch of our govt or major political party.

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