If I were them, I'd apologize to my Jewish and Muslim communities, and say simply:

No pork. No bull.

When a “sin” becomes a crime, we are back in the Dark Ages.

We not only have a revival of fascism to confront - but also of medievalism.

then it's called "democracy," and if it doesn't infringe on other people's rights, it doesn't matter.

The same problem can happen when a political party representing just a small portion of the population also inflicts its will on the body politic.

If you're a member of the oppressing party (religious or secular) there's typically no problem. Otherwise, the general consensus is, "Leave me alone, I have my rights."

Sins are just moral failings that we decide to punish through extra-legal means and that Xian church says are bad. If it's not a church, then it's not "sin" but we use all the same means--social pressure, humiliation, drumming them out of the corps, whatever--to punish them. Some parties even chuck the poor sot out of their midst; we're more enlightened, we just try to ruin them for life, get them fired, bankrupt, etc.

Take, for example, female genitalia mutilation. A majority of people might believe all of the fiction around FGM, but a progressive government would need to rule against the majority.

“Sin” is a nonsense term. I wouldn’t call having a moral compass or social backlash at all similar.

And we all know how humane they were. At least I trust you do.

Right-wingers have to have everything their way. Clearly, these practices were not causing problems except in the minds of the RWNJs.

While it's certainly true that prior to WWII, some countries banned such practices because of intolerance, the reason it's done today is out of animal welfare concerns.

sense.

I am not trying to debate whether people should or shouldn't eat animals, just that there appears to be a contradiction in that logic to me.

It's the one that's the most popular with PETA and has a lot to do with why people hate PETA.

Their most frequently repeated fallacy is one can't consume animal products and simultaneously oppose animal cruelty. Many and I dare say most vegans don't even buy that.

judgement on people, which is what that does.

The method of Kosher slaughter I suspect they believe is more inhuman because there is visually more blood, and that does not necessarily mean it is more painful

The reason they disagree is because there's been several objective studies commissioned by EU member nations. You can read the meta analysis here:
http://www.dialrel.eu/images/veterinary-concerns.pdf

It's also important to remember that outside of a religious context this issue hasn't been the least bit controversial for decades because people have already known what contemporary studies are now showing. The US passed the first Humane Slaughter Act in 1958 and for many European countries well before.

so how are they wrong?

LOL

Of whatever it is that you’re trying to express?

I said please though

I'm done in this thread trying to have an adult conversation with you. As I said, welcome to DU.

All animal products come from exploitation.
Thank you
Goodnight

I think humane treatment of animals is more important than ancient religious practices. These 'laws/commandments'(613 in the Bible; allah knows how many in the Quran) have no value for society. They keep imans, rabbis employed, but cause pain to animals. Good for Belgian humanists.

The things that get excused in the name of religion are ridiculous and it's time for this to end. Given what we know about the universe and how it works there's just no excuse anymore for a lot of that crap anymore.

The raising of animals in cages where they can not move about is much more painful for them than a ritualistic slaughter. I happen to like a medium rare ribeye steak 1 1/2-2 inches thick. My dogs prefer theirs rare. We eat red meat 3 times a week, pork 2 times a week and chicken 2 times a week. My aunt worked in a meatpacking company so we were raised on red meat. Red meat and potatoes.

Animals raised for human consumption lead horrible lives. I am not advocating for or against the way these animals are killed, I just think that the way they are forced to live is even worse. I am a hypocrite in that I hate the way these animals have to live, but I am not a vegan or even a vegetarian.

This thread is about the use of ritual slaughter of animals. What you are talking about is a conversation worth having, but isn't relevant to this thread.

"these animals are killed, I just think that the way they are forced to live is even worse"

However, as part of her work in trying to make food animals experience less stress altogether -- which includes experiences up to the point of any form of stunning, as well as ensuring electrically/chemically stunned animals truly are insensible vs using machines to hold them still and disguise regaining consciousness -- and her belief about humane methods, she has promoted several different techniques to still achieve all the ritual elements without unnecessarily stressing the animal before the cut.

Grandin approaches things from a very different viewpoint than many of us -- but her work in designing methods to achieve humane kosher/halal slaughter is recognized worldwide. It's not impossible.

If they want to pay some Rabbi or Imam to do the hokey pokey and put their stamp on it, more power to them. Nobody with any sense is taking issue with that. All they are saying is they are going to have to get out of the 19th century and comply with the same regulations that everyone else who doesn't say hocus pocus has to comply with.

... Well, never mind.

But it sounds like a completely different subject.

Kosher slaughter is very fast. The knife has to be so sharp that no blood gets on it. Unconsciousness is very rapid due to severing the arteries to the brain.

By contrast modern industrial slaughter is barbaric.

Industrial slaughter requires stunning the animals so no pain and distress occurs. Not true for the superstitious methods.

Kosher slaughter, however, does NOT. And not all halal meat comes from a pre-stunned animal; some halal slaughtermen believe their techniques are so awesome the animal feels no pain.

Also, only the front quarters of a cow are kosher. Not sure why this is, but they sell the hindquarters into the non-kosher marketplace. Conversely, the entire carcass can be sold into the halal marketplace.

It's not as if these people are going to do stop certifying these products. If stunning is required by law they will eventually decide god is OK with it and they will resume their certifications including that process. Meanwhile they shouldn't be excepted from society when just about the entire civilized world has decided this is the right way to do it.

This law is intolerance disguised as ethical treatment of animals.

I get you like to throw that word around with zero basis. Good luck making the case that the leading veterinarian in the BVA is intolerant.

When it applies to everyone, it's not intolerance. When the reasons have nothing to do with religion, it's not intolerance.

It's pretty silly to pretend a process that takes a small fraction of a second and almost foolproof is somehow equal to a process that can take several minutes and is highly prone to human error. If you really want to go there, be my guest but I don't think it does much for your credibility on the subject.

But the application coincidentally only involves 2 religions.

You need to look up how these animals are "painlessly" killed. It might make your reply more credible.

Unconscious slaughtering of animals has been applied to everyone the world over for the past 60 years or so. The only exception has been for religious reasons and Belgium has decided to no longer allow them. I don't have to look up anything. I was raised on a farm and I've been to slaughterhouses. I've also seen people slaughter animals at home pretty much exactly the way Kosher and Halal is prescribing as that's pretty much the way it has been done for thousands of years.

Meanwhile you made a charge of intolerance that you didn't even attempt to support or take back. I find that particularly insulting so I'm just going to leave you to your own devices as evidently you have your own agenda.

That seems highly unlikely.

I have, it's not pretty. Of course the shoctim was so old he could barely hold the knife. His cuts were not precise.

The shochet was not old at all, and it was still horrible.

...religiously-prescribed kosher/hallal slaughter?

Any idea at all?

First and foremost, under religious law the animal must be "clean," that is, show no signs of disease. I have not ever heard of a kosher beef or or chicken recall -- yet that is a recurring problem from our modern mechanized processing industries.

That is a very scary quote!

The Venn diagram of the two literally (not figuratively) includes Hitler.

Horseshoe theory in real practice.

So when our food resources are such that we start eating each other, will we be killing one another in a humane, painless way?

The Belgians figure they can chew gum and walk at the same time?

The chickens are 3-3 1/2 pounds because they weren’t pumped up with growth hormone.

5-5.5 lb behemoths they’ve been stocking at my local supermarkets, which serves a senior community where the largest family is composed of 2 members, and the beef roasts are sold as 2-2 1/2 pounders. I’ll look for a halal market.

But, I didn't find it more expensive.
Since it's a requirement in many communities the price is kept fairly low

nobody else ought to spend a moment considering what your favorite bed-time story has to say on the matter. Leave that noise out of public policy and law; play with your toys and write your fan-fiction at home.

no need to answer that. Stupid law. sheesh.

this stupid law is going to piss off Muslim and Jews. And animal right activists. Do we need another "war" on animals, is how I should have framed it.

In typical US fashion, progressivism will eventually arrive here as well kicking and screaming all the way.

The sad part is humane slaughtering of animals isn't a new concept. 100 years ago just about everyone did it the way the superstitious demand it must still be done. Once technology allowed for instantaneous methods people started adopting them and eventually it was required by law. The US went that direction over 60 years ago after most of Europe was already there. Now that governments are finally demanding people don't get exceptions for torturing animals we must somehow believe all of this is controversial.

(and this ban is actually only in Flanders; Wallonia will follow in September, but not, as far as I can tell, Brussels).

https://www.thejc.com/news/world/flanders-belgium-ban-on-kosher-slaughter-begins-1.477865
https://news.sky.com/story/flanders-region-of-belgium-bans-halal-and-kosher-animal-slaughter-11601286

It's either the right thing to do or it isn't, who gets pissed off is somewhat irrelevant.

It's a guarantee of a healthy meal

But then, I'm Orthodox Jewish.

Kosher butchering avoids things like nerves, fatty tissues, and most organs. The entire "mad cow" epidemic in Europe completely bypassed observant Jewish people because such diseased items (and sick animals) are avoided by kosher requirements.

And Kosher slaughter is, if done correctly (a large "if"; there are bad actors like anywhere), very humane. The animal hasn't a clue what is going on. In fact, the entire process is purposed to avoid cruelty.

I suspect the authorities did this out of racism against Muslims and then just added Kosher slaughter to avoid civil unrest and give themselves cover.

but the animal does not actually want to die. Humane meat does not exist.

I suppose broccoli doesn't want to be harvested, either.

Humans need plants in order to live. Plants can't really "want" anything because they lack a central nervous system. (sure they can respond to a stimulus but they feel no pain). Many plants and fruits need to be eaten in order to grow more fruits and plants. So if a plant could want, they would indeed want to be harvested for the sake of their continued offspring.

You must be an animalist, preferring the rights of animals over innocent green plants that have never preyed on anything.

I defend plants against evil creatures who prey upon them.

The animals you eat consume way more plants than I ever could.

If I eat them.

Now that hes out?

I think he was a bad guy and a bad actor, but I also think the Judge was a raving antisemitic ass.

He denied bail (for a bit) simply on the basis that Rubaskin was Jewish and could thus (theoretically) make aliyah to Israel. Never mind Israel would refuse a fleeing felon of this nature the right of aliyah.

Anyway, he deserved to be convicted (from what I know). He also deserved to be freed after 8 years. Way longer than any similar case.

Anyway, you know the judge overreached when a bunch of Obama-era officials and current Democratic officials petition Trump to commute the sentence --- and Trump agrees.

Mind, you I am a Lubavitcher myself, so I am a bit biased (and also the last-standing Orthodox Democrat, although I admit I am deeply troubled by the overt antisemitism of several new members of Congress). I kind-of-sort-of knew his father, who was a good man.

Don't know what happened to the son. Greed, I suppose.

One from a well-known family in NYC.

But I'm also Orthodox (from a Satmar sect), born and raised here in Denver, so Rubaskin's were pretty much our staple, but now we get kosher foods from other sources. Married into another Orthodox family from Boro Park, wife hated the traditions and the Sabbath/holiday rules, so moves us more of a modern Orthodox style. We try to keep Shabbat as much as possible for the sake of our son, but not always (like a few times in a year).

This year my son's having big-time issues with his 4th grade Judaic studies teacher. This guy is just not following the Jewish traditions of anything, and teaching nothing. This yutz is from Israel via NJ, and really does nothing. He doesn't even wear kippah, and wears dreads and is anti-thesis of a Judaic teacher should be. The kids aren't learning anything Jewish at all. This guy had the gall to bitch at me about my son because he wasn't respectful to him. No shit, after what my mother reported to me this morning, I'm convinced that the school has made a huge mistake with this guy.

I'm pretty lefty and this school is the leftiest of the three Jewish schools that are in the Denver area. The other schools are leaning towards to the frum side which isn't what I want for the kiddo. I want him to make a choice on what path he wants to go. My wife and I have had pretty much Orthodox style family life, and we want what the kiddo wants.

Sorry for the rant, I just don't really have anyone to talk to, because of my uniqueness.

I'm not Satmar but we have Lubavitch and Bobov family so I am familiar with some of Chassidic splits.

Anyway there's also a Jewish group her on DU. Feel free to join.

Although my son has to drive me to shul on Friday afternoons. We have a small apartment near. I am old, so I live with my son now, and he is a doctor in a very rural area. Big change for me.

I am very much the only Democrat there. Even my son is Republican. The antics of Rashida Tlaib calling for the genocide of Jewish people in Israel was a bridge too far. I fear he will never reconsider our party.

As an aside, there is an Israeli TV show I am enjoying on Netflix called "Shtisel" you would enjoy. It follows (I think) Satmar family in Israel. (You really can't tell the specific Hasidic group -- not Lubavitch, as they are very much not Zionists)

It is very respectful and (interestingly) the number one show among Hasidic families, despite not many having TVs.

It's split between Hebrew and Yiddish (which I enjoy listening to, since I haven't spoken it since my wife died).

There are English subtitles for both.

I'm always in the hunt (as is my mother) for some interesting series on Netflix.

When a deer is killed by a hunter sitting in a tree, its meat tastes much better than when the hunter has dogs that run the deer for some time before the hunter kills it. I do not hunt but my friends give me some meat to make my venison and pork meatloaf. So back to my question, does anyone know if the way an animal at the slaughter house is killed, has an effect on how the meat will taste?

A distressed animal burns through its sugars, glycogen, in its muscles in a fight or flight response to a situation. The glycogen is burned through leaving lactic acid as part of that process. High levels of latic acid leaves the meat with a very high Ph (acidic) and dramatically impacts the taste profile, making highly stressed animal meat nearly inedible at times.

No matter the method of killing, most of the animals are so worked up getting transported to the slaughterhouse, being forced down a chute with electric prods and smelling all the blood it is analogous to a deer being chased by dogs. Which is one of the reasons, but hardly the only one, that beef is aged before consumption.

I am a hunter. I still hunt out of stands. One minute the deer is walking along doing deer things, the next he or she is dead. If I can’t insure a one shot kill to the heart and lungs I do not shoot. This year I killed 2 deer. Used 2 bullets. Even my vegan friends consider this the most humane way to get meat.

I try to but all my store bought meat from small local producers. But have no illusions about what the animals go through. Especially pigs. They are smart and seem to know what is coming unless kill individually on the farm. Of course, pork is not relevant to the OP.

the sounds they make almost cause me to cry. They react in a very similar way that one imagines humans would react while being lined up in a slaughterhouse. Seeing it will make you think twice about eating meat at all.

Eliminating all such silly fantasy, regardless of the name of the invisible sky fairy, the ethnicity of said sky-fairy's followers or the weeping wailing and gnashing of teeth of the folks who still think such bronze age bullshit should be worthy of anything other than ridicule would be a good step.

methods."

To give the right some credit, they do seem to know how to choose 'popular' ways to create hardships for minorities, motivate their base and split the left.

...and less painful for animals.

And all you people bending over backwards to justify this ban -- you would trust right wing nationalists why?

Please my fellow liberals -- tell me why.

I find that less than compelling.

The average person is so removed from the farm that they have no idea what is and is not involved in the slaughter of animals, except it sounds icky. It is icky. But there are different grades of ick.

I suggest a little basic research into modern animal processing bu secular factory slaughterhouses before decrying ancient animal processing by Jews and Muslims.

I suggest that everyone in this thread who is jumping to the defense of "animal rights activists" take a long hard look at the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe and the wave of Islamophobia there as well.

It's either the right thing to do or it isn't, who agrees with you is irrelevant to that fact.

...from across the Atlantic, I won't be surprised if you can't smell it when it is right on our own doorstep. Or do you think Europe's right wing nationalists are any different from ours?

Skinheads/Nazis/White Nationalists -- they are vicious and they lie, whatever name they call themselves today.

And as we have learned to our sorrow, Putin just loves them because they are willing tools in his stated goal to undermine Western democratic states. Finding wedges is what he does, then drives them home as hard as he can.

This move isn't "democratic." It is anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, and destructive of actual democracy.

You want kindness to animals? Don't be an idiot. Find. Other. Allies. (Obviously I am not including you or any other DUer in the category of "idiot." That was the grammatically plural general "you." )

...how much they support my cause and want to donate and show up at marches -- oh what to do? what to do?

Publicly disavow their support, their money, and any attempt to get in front of the same camera.

EX500rider -- just stop it.