I still can't reconcile that. How dare the UK slap Scotland in the fact like that, after they voted to remain in a close, contentious vote? The UK deserves to lose Scotland (and then the rich people won't have their playground anymore, either).

I wish that was true speaking as a Scottish Nationalist, however the margin was 10%+ in favour of remain in the United Kingdom.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/

Brexit has changed the dynamic (I hope) however the recent election result was statement about Brexit and not Independance.

I know that the pressure was pretty strong to remain, but that outcome could easily have been different.

Last edited Fri Dec 20, 2019, 07:34 AM - Edit history (1)

Funny, that.

In Scotland, EVERY single piece of election literature that I saw (and whole bundles of it got delivered from certain parties) and every party political broadcast I viewed from the anti-independence parties said very clearly that this election was a chance to "stop the SNP", "stop indyref", "Tell her [Nicola Sturgeon] again", "last chance to save the Union" etc. etc. For the Tories in particular, it was their ONLY selling point.

Having stood on that plain platform, the electorate sent a very clear message.

EU Referendum:
Scotland voted 62% to 38% against Brexit a 24% margin. All 32 councils voted against Brexit.

Independence:
55% Remain v 45% Leave a 10% margin. Only 4 councils voted to leave UK.

General Election:
45% SNP, 25% Conservative, 18% Labour & 9% Lib-Dem.

SNP against Brexit.
Tories were pro-Brexit.
Lib-Dems against Brexit.
Labour didn't know what it was (however IMO pro-Brexit against Independence).

SNP landslide (48 seats) however only 45% of the vote.
That's not a mandate for Indyref2.

I am pro-independence, against Brexit, SNP voter and Scottish.

It was all over their election literature and the basis of their campaigns in Scotland. They don't get to backtrack and rewrite history having lost, so I don't see why you're trying to.




Of course it's a mandate for indyref2.

By your logic, Johnson has no mandate for Brexit, having got only 43.6% of the vote!

General election is first past the post .. SNP won in Scotland and Conservatives won in the UK as a whole.

SNP retook East Renfewshire from the Tories which is great but they gained those votes from Labour not the Tories .. I digress.

Independance is a straight % vote.

The Tories got 43% but SNP got 4% so on the question of Brexit the Tories get to do what they please.
I'm not happy about it but that's how elections work currently.

Edit: SNP had a resurgence in votes in the GE as Scotland is against BREXIT but not in favour of INDEPENDENCE. Give it a few more years and maybe we'll win and gain independence or maybe not!?

You said "The general election was not about Independence".

I showed you clear evidence that for the Tories in Scotland, it was all about independence. I can do the same for the SNP's other opponents' election literature if you insist.

You've now doubled down on that without offering any evidence at all for your claim.

You said 45% of the vote isn't a mandate. I asked, if that was so, how 43.6% can be one.

You have no answer. But you keep shifting the goalposts if you want.

Comparing 43% for the Tories in the UK as a whole with the SNP's 4% in Scotland alone is fatuous. The whole UK electorate won't be on the franchise for another indyref unless there's a very radical change in how it's run (whereas 16-18-year-olds will be, which kicks up support for independence at a stroke, and that's just one factor).

"It's politics .. whomever will use whatever" is a totally lame attempted rebuttal.

I actually live in Scotland. The whole political climate has shifted again over the last year or two, and that's moved on in a greater leap during the general election and in its aftermath.

I received the election literature too (it's late I don't have any inclination to scan) and yes the Tories banged on about preventing the breakup of the Union aka prevent Scottish Independence ... I do get it!

The election literature was posted through my door too as I live in Scotland and probably only a few miles from you if you live in Newton Mearns.

I destroyed the Torie crap however I have both Labour which states let's prevent a no deal Brexit and SNP which says Scotlands Future your choice .. neither mention Indyref2 however I guess it could be implied as Sturgeon has never made it a secret.

I think we may be on the same side but may need to agree to differ. I say 45% of the Scottish vote is not a mandate for Indyref2 and IF it was granted we would fail again. IMO!

Last edited Sat Dec 21, 2019, 03:04 AM - Edit history (2)

It opposed Brexit consistently.

But when Leave won in the EU referendum, the SNP put the UK government to shame by actually producing and publicizing impact assessments, being diplomatically proactive with other EU members and officials (to the extent that the Tories decided to strongarm them by refusing to finance travel if there was any hint that diplomacy might be committed during the trip) and seeking to have input into preparations for leaving the EU, which doesn't seem an insane suggestion, just a government doing what a government should. The Tories meanwhile writhed and prevaricated and basically did sweet fanny Adams for three years other than emit tonnes of hot air and consume themselves in infighting. They have still yet to formulate a clear vision for what Brexit actually is.

This obviously relates to independence, (1) because a major plank of the No campaign was that Scotland would be out of the EU with no prospect of joining if it became independent, and (2) there was no mandate within Scotland itself to leave the EU - in fact a supermajority for remaining.

The logic of the two prongs is that if no "sensible" Brexit is available that will avoid serious damage to Scotland's interests and if the Scottish Government's good-faith attempts to influence the process and have critical input into UK politics as was promised in "The Vow" and Smith Commission agreement are constantly haughtily rebutted, then there is obviously no democratic space for Scotland in what is becoming Little England with delusions of grandeur.

Major No campaign figures pooh-poohed the idea that the UK might leave the EU, and ridiculed the prospect of Johnson ever becoming prime minister. Those are material changes now they've come to pass, and justify revisiting the issue.

The SNP already has mandates through victories for Yes-supporting parties at Holyrood and in the Euro elections, this latest election being the cherry on the cake. If you need more concrete proof of a mandate, how about a majority in the democratically elected parliament at Holyrood passing enabling legislation for a second referendum? Or is that now judged "not good enough"? Only the losers are fishing around for a way of spinning the results to justify their increasingly indefensible stances, which even some in the media are belatedly challenging as untenable. Now you (and they) are talking about the "need" for yet another mandate at the next Holyrood elections in 2021. How long can all that goalpost-shifting go on? Time was when Maggie Thatcher declared that if the SNP won a simple majority of Scottish seats at Westminster, that would be justification for independence, never mind a referendum on it. How far we've come.

You (and they) have been mixing up different results for different elections under different systems to come up with your 45% figure and various others that just muddy the waters.

The last indyref began with support for independence in the high 20s percent. Polling shows it's now consistently nearer 50:50 even before campaigning begins and before the grisly reality of the shape of Brexit under Johnson is clear, and many of those polls don't take into account the extended franchise I mentioned above.

And no, I don't live in Newton Mearns. The images I posted are from social and mainstream media and the Tories' own website. The election addresses etc. put out by the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour have been widely pointed at and laughed at, and rightly so (the Lib Dems couldn't even spell the names of the constituencies they were contesting correctly in a number of cases). My own stash of such literature didn't dawdle long before hitting the recycling pile (the Lib Dems' various mailings alone could have filled a bin lorry), but was identical except with a different candidate's name pasted in where appropriate. Those parties chose to put independence front and centre in the campaign - and lost. The SNP's stance is hardly a secret!

I've only quoted facts in my prior posts detailing election, brexit and independence results.

Many were in shock that that UK voted to leave the EU. My honest opinion is that Brexit is racially motivated and I find that very sad.

SNP being a Nationalist party then it comes as no surprise a vote on Indyref2 was rapid at the Scottish Parliament. I tried digging to see who voted FOR and who AGAINST however it seems The Greens were required.

It appears Conservative, Labour and Lib-Dems voted against Indyref2.

I'll not dipute a recent poll did indeed indicate around 50:50 results for Indepenence with Indyref2 however history clearly shows Scotland did not want Independence that may change in the near future and I do hope so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

I think when the true pain of Brexit rears it's ugly head that the Scottish people may embrace Independence. I'll eat my words if Indyref2 goes ahead and we vote for Indepenence in the near future but I can't see Indyref2 happing before 2021.

If not for that, I'd never have bothered responding, but it's counterfactual, and I showed it to be so for the benefit of those who don't live in Scotland. Here's some more:

He was actually fighting for a seat, so presumably he can be trusted to know what he was campaigning for and against.

It's no surprise that the Holyrood representatives of the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems opposed the first step in the enabling legislation for a referendum. The saddest development over the last couple of decades has been the hollowing out of talent in their ranks to the current stage where they're mainly List timeservers with barely an original thought among them.

In the parties at large, there are stirrings of change among at least Labour, where an Ashcroft poll in August (one of the more granular ones we have, as most rely on small Scottish subsets) found 52% support for independence even before the impetus of this last general election, and also found that 40% of Labour's past voters supported independence, which starts chipping away at your "45%" claim in addition to the franchise factors I mentioned.

In the past week, Alison Evison, the Labour president of COSLA, called for a referendum, and she's only one of Labour's Scottish leadership who're now entertaining the idea.

Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard's days must be numbered before we face the perennial spectacle of yet another Scottish Labour leadership election in the hope of finding a figure who doesn't just bury his or her head in the sand when the going gets rough.

General Election based on both Brexit and Indyref2 or you'll hound me j/k.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50866247

The prime minister will give "careful consideration" to Nicola Sturgeon's request to be handed the powers to hold a second independence referendum, the Scottish secretary has insisted.

Alister Jack said the UK government would formally reply to the first minister's request in the new year.

But he said 55% of Scottish voters had backed parties that are opposed to independence in last week's election.

--------------------

Ms Sturgeon says she wants to hold a referendum next year.

She wants the UK government to agree to a so-called section 30 order, which would give the Scottish Parliament the power to hold a referendum and put its legality beyond doubt - as happened ahead of the 2014 referendum when Scotland voted to remain in the UK by 55% to 45%.

Ms Sturgeon sent documents to Prime Minister Boris Johnson on Thursday outlining her case for indyref2, arguing that she now has an "unarguable" mandate after her SNP won 48 of Scotland's 59 seats in last week's general election.

--------------------

"The result of the general election was that 55% of the votes cast were cast for parties that backed the union - 45% were for separatist parties and that's no different to what happened five years ago, in 2014.

--------------------

The above is what I actually believe to be true .. the vote hasn't changed and if we had a referendum tomorrow the people of Scotland would vote against.

IMO it's too early to hold Indyref2 we should wait until the pain of Brexit hits families and businesses. I then predict a change in opinion.

Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas to all tomorrow or today if you're in Sydney or Tokyo .. enjoy your KFC.

Scotland wants to stay in the EU and the threat/passage of a second referendum may force Westminster to give Scotland the powers they need to stay in the EU.

But 62% voted to stay in the EU in the Brexit vote.

It's not unreasonable to think that it may have nudged support for independence up a bit.

It failed by 10.6% with 85% turnout. Only a handful (4?) of their 32 councils voted to leave.

Obama won by 7% and 4%... were those super-narrow?

And Tories are the worst of all. They look down on everyone.

I should note that both in my travels in England and here at home, I've never met someone whom I knew to be a Labour or LibDem voter to be conceited in the least.

It's almost if they were from a different country than their Tory countrymen.

Experiences may vary of course - but I've always found that to be the case.

It's time for Scotland to go its own way. The English have gone mad. There is no reason to go with them.

seem that way, doesn't it (that the English have gone mad)?

Ok a "hard" EU/UK border. Maybe?
m

The British economy is headed for hard times due to Brexit. Scotland and Northern Ireland need to move quickly to save themselves.

Moreover, a hard border between Scotland and England would be less likely to result in "troubles" than a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

Once separated from England, Scotland and Northern Ireland should consider joining together in some form. The Scots and Northern Irish have more in common than they ever had with the mad Sassanacks.

Scotland could be the gateway between the EU and Britain with less "troubles" than NI. Then NI and the republic would still maintain their open border..

"The Scots and Northern Irish have more in common than they ever had with the mad Sassanacks. "
Correct me if I'm wrong and weren't the northern territories of Ireland conquered by the ?Sassanacks? Then the lands were given to Scots nobles to keep them from raiding the towns of northern England. Hence the name Scots Irish... It's always about the dirt...
who owns it and who conquers it...
I like the Outlander reference.. No problems as long as they look as handsome as Caitriona Balfe, Sam Heughan!!
m

The Ulster Plantations occurred in the reign of James VI & I in the early 1600s. The idea was to "civilize" Ulster which was largely Gaelic-speaking, Catholic, and resistant to control from Westminster. The people who immigrated during the Plantations were English and Scottish. The only requirement was that they be Protestant, English speaking, and loyal to the crown.

It was not a purpose of the Plantations to secure northern England from raids from Ulster - the Irish Sea largely took care of that. The purpose of the Plantations was to pacify Ulster for English rule.

True enough, the Scots-Irish are the descendants of Scottish folks who moved to Ireland - Ulster or further south. Scots moved to Ireland both during the Plantations and the Highland Clearances from the mid-1700s to mid-1800s. Truthfully, people moved back and forth across the Irish Sea for centuries depending on where the grass looked greener. After all, St. Patrick was a Scot.

I've never seen The Outlander and express no opinion concerning the actors or characters. I've called the people south of the River Tweed Sassanacks since I played in a pipe band decades ago.

There aren’t that many crossings between the two. It would be a manageable situation.

planes from the military....................since the aircraft carrier was built in Scotland.................

And then there is Ireland....................

There are just way too many similarities with election problems, candidate problems, etc, that are going on there and here.

A weaker EU benefits Russia. A divided EU benefits Russia. A divided and fractured NATO benefits Russia. A weak GBP and Euro benefit Russia. Distrust and suspicion among allies benefit Russia. Trump in the White House benefits Russia. A divided US benefits Russia. Economic turmoil benefits Russia.

This country needs to wake up and smell the vodka.

as there were interfering in the US vote.

I have family still in Scotland. There was so much disinformation and subliminal emotional twisting of arms. And false polling data much like trumpie's "People tell me . . ." BS. It was so obvious that there was massive manipulation and massaging of information.

Scotland exiting the UK is a microcosm of the UK leaving the EU.

Little England would be on its own.

in a show of unity against Brexit.

It would ease some of the anxiety in Ulster over re-union.

Time to break off from imbecile England.

what to call it?... hmmmm

...Brexit! LOL!