Another win for the good guys! We're on a roll (mostly) today.

and convicted man for his own self interest and not the interests of the tribe. Yet, the tribe benefits in the end.

Not sure if he can be tried again in these circumstances. I sure hope so. And convicted again.

While the other two decisions today were without a doubt monumental, this is the one warms my heart and soul.

HALF the state? Really?

I’m thrilled, if it’s true, but there’s got to be some kind of mistake, here.



-Laelth

Indian Territory.

But it was divided, roughly equally, between five tribes: Muscogee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Seminole, and Cherokee. How did the Muscogee end up with half the state? This is just wierd (although glorious, in its own way).

-Laelth

The Eastern part of the state is divided among the Civilized Tribes (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek (Muskogee), and Seminole. The rest of the state was used to either imprison survivors of the genocide visited on the Western tribes (example: Kiowa, Cheyenne, Comanche) or opened up to white settlement (Central Oklahoma) in the Early 1890's with the Land Run. The Creek activists locally are celebrating today!

who were removed to Oklahoma. It was part of an ethnic cleansing movement to relocate ALL eastern tribes to live west of the Mississippi. Parts of some of the Iroquoian tribes relocated to Oklahoma. The ones who had remained behind to fight in court helped some of their members to return because conditions were so bad in Oklahoma that people were dying of starvation and disease.

Some of the people remained in OK though, unable to make the trip back home again. They received a section of land in northeastern OK as a reservation.

There were many eastern tribes besides the 5 rhat people know about who were forcibly removed to OK in order to cleanse all the land east of the Mississippi of Native inhabitants. SCOTUS ruled against it, but Andrew Jackson defied them and sent the military in to forcibly remove them.

Jackson was a populist who could get away with defying SCOTUS. He is also one of Benedict Donald's heros.

Yes, there are many tribes I did not mention because there are many and every one is different. I live in NE Oklahoma within the Cherokee Nation and have friends of many tribes (not just the so-called Civilized Tribes) who live nearby. Like the Seneca, Miami, Ottowa, Leni Lenape, Quawpa (all within 50 miles from where I love). I didn't mean to give anyone short shrift; there are the remaining survivors from more than a hundred tribes within the borders of the state. All of the tribes in Oklahoma were removed here forcibly. Every tribe has their own Trail of Tears.

for people who might not be aware.

My grandmother had Seneca and Mohawk ancestry. While researching her family history, I came across archives of letters discussing who to send to OK to aid the people there in returning if they wanted to. The letters also discussed court battles to remain in NY.

In the end, the Seneca people remain on their own traditional land, although its size is greatly reduced.

is a Mohawk (from the Bronx). She taught college here in OK before she moved back east to teach at Brown. Thanks for adding history. I appreciate it!

Then they decided they wanted that land, too. Thus: Oklahoma.

And Trump will be sad.

Many don’t know the extent of his racism toward Native Americans. It was unmatched.

I mean that quite seriously.



-Laelth

I used to teach high school Oklahoma History. Back in the old days it was a required course in Oklahoma schools.

Anything that will appear as a reversal of our callous attitude towards the ORIGINAL residents of what is now the US of A.

As far as I am concerned, we have TWO ORIGINAL SINS that need to be addressed. THAT (the stealing of the indigenous people's land, the slaughter of their people, and the fact that we reneged on almost every treaty we signed with them - over 500) and SLAVERY (buying and selling of humans for the purpose of forced servitude).

We got some serious splainin to do. Mea culpas won't be sufficient. And "Shit Happens" is not a valid explanation.

majorities, or . . . , or that gorsuch is not a true member of the 'treason trump wing of SCOTUS], or . .

He has a history with native claims and he's been generally sympathetic. He understands the history.

This had implications far beyond Oklahoma, like in S.D. where that Noom person was ordering them about. And what does this mean for future Mt. Rushmore? I bet Senator Warren is happy about this given his recent taunts in her direction.

Not a land case. It will not apply to the other situations you are commenting on. This case overturned the conviction of a child rapist.

and that the rape case will likely be tried again. However to me, it sends a message, especially where standing is concerned and in matters where the native Americans have had their rights ignored and been subjected to major racism, it might generate a major re-think. JUst the sound of 'owning half the state' sounds huge.

got here.

Indians are perfectly capable of handling their own affairs.

The original occupants of this country should also have a large, permanent representation in both houses of congress.

nation, and it has been this way intentionally.

Native Americans: I don’t like the way you’ve been treating me! I want my land. I want Half, USA.

USA: Alright, alright! How about half of Oklahoma?

Native Americans: Deal!

I’m glad they won the case; this is kinds funny though.

I had not heard that one before.

I’d support it.



-Laelth

If they're not contiguous, and the tribes don't share heritage, I don't see the benefit.

Gorsuch has shown at least twice recently that that's not the case. He still has boof boy on lock though.

native indians have been treated as badly or maybe worse than slaves in America.

For now it only applies to criminal cases on the historical Creek lands.
THe whole states NA population is only 9.3% and the Creek Nation is not that large.

Here is a map of the "historical" Muscogee Creek Nation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Territory#/media/File:Okterritory.png

ETA: boy a bunch of people in this thread are way off in what the case was about.

He's being hypothetical:

This is a criminal jurisdiction case.

What happens to all the state and local governments established within Indian Territory? Will they have two governments that co-exist?

Or just does ruling only apply to Native Americans who live within this area? For instance they will have civil rights restored that belonged to them. (That is what I'm kinda thinking)


Is Roberts just being hypothetical in his dissent?

the Saginaw Chippewa Reservation. Not a member of the Tribe, but if I get pulled over by Tribal Police I must to the Tribal court. The Tribe is responsible for fires at my house and across the street it is the township. I'm lucky as the Tribal Fire dept. is always 10 minutes faster. I do have a Tribal library card :thumbs:. I'm sure it will work out there as it does here. Respect of both parties.
Another great ruling.

a major attempt to further disenfranchise the Native Americans in that region. Federal Law/Federal Indian Law excludes states from jurisdiction on Indian sovereign nations (reservations) period.

Most of the tribes in my area have to constantly fight the states over this fact, states have NO jurisdiction on reservations. That is a federal issue and when a crime is committed on a reservation, the FBI gets involved along with the tribal LEOs.

There are not real Indian reservations in Oklahoma. There is no place where the NA population is a majority in Oklahoma even in the traditional areas of settlement. The Indians here live and operate just like the surrounding population. In most cases you can't even tell who is on the Indian rolls by looks or by profession or wealth.

It's not at all like in New Mexico or Arizona.

the land is not occupied?

according to the treaty.

One of the first people I met out west was a lawyer who was one of the first qualified in both federal and tribal law. I was a bit taken aback by the extent the Feds poked their noses into things that should have been handled by the tribes. She was shocked that I was shocked.

This is a great ruling and should serve to protect the land they still have, as white folks will be a lot less interested in encroaching onto it if they have to face a tribal justice system instead of their own.

So Gorsuch crossed the line again. We might be seeing the beginning of a tag team here, "whose turn is it to piss off the GeeOhPee by coming down on the right side of history?" There is little hope for either Alito or Thomas, but the other three seem open to reason from time to time.

Yes, even Kavanaugh. Surprise, surprise.

There is a man on Oklahoma Death Row, who brought this up on his appeal. I guess Oklahoma will have to release him and Mr McGirt? It was established today that these cases are federal, not state jurisdiction.

Very far reaching decision. Will be interesting to see how much autonomy is gained by this new territory.

Land is not reserved solely for Indians to live on. If an Indian wants to buy property they do it just like the rest of the population here.
There are tribal districts where they can run their own hospitals and casinos etc., but the NA population is spread out all over the state.
As I wrote before, it's not like reservations like in the west or in the Dakotas.

I wasn't aware the reservations had also been abolished. I've never lived there and it's a history I have neglected in my reading. It makes sense that once white folks had figured out how to grow food in a semi desert prairie, the reservations there were doomed.

Here, the NA population is spread out all over the state, the reservations being inadequate, to say the least, to support the tribes. Casinos have done a lot to improve things for them, gamblers providing the support the Feds reneged on, but there is a long way to go. Mostly what they lack is enough land, desert farming requires a hell of a lot of it.

Only about the western 1/3 of Oklahoma is prairie. The eastern on half is wooded semi rolling hills. The southeast part has lumber as a major industry ( wooded, lush, and some beautiful scenery)
Oklahoma is like 4 different geographic regions. Northeast is like the midwest, Southeast is little Dixie, Northwest is wheat, prairie ( and natural gas) and the southwest is like well... the Southwest.

and all I can remember is cows, grass and oil wells with OKC in the middle.

It's where I saw my first big wind farm, I'll give it that much. Nice people, don't know why they insist on voting for such piss poor representation.

But, being a Connecticut resident for much of my 58 years, I think everything West of Pennsylvania is the west. 😁

for card carrying Native Americans who are residing in former Indian Territory.

It's one of those things where you would probably have to read the whole thing...and I'm no lawyer and I don't have the time.

I don't know if this applies to local ordinances (traffic tickets etc)

Will the 405 have to change their name?

that we will have to consult George W. Bush
in matters about Native American sovereignty.

We sole a lot of land to make the parks "safe".
https://timeline.com/national-parks-native-americans-56b0dad62c9d

Last edited Fri Jul 10, 2020, 03:28 AM - Edit history (1)

The state of OK has no jurisdiction in that territory now.

I wonder if we will be going back to a 49 star flag, or maybe to a 51 star flag.

of the Five Civilized Tribes in Oklahoma read books like " And Still the Waters Run" by Angie Debo. I lived in her small town in Oklahoma when she wrote this and many great histories of the Creek, Choctaw, the rise and fall of the Republics and life of Geronimo.
We can never make up for the awful betrayals of treaties with hundreds of tribes, the Trail of Tears and the treatment of the great leaders like Chief Ouray but at least we can learn the true history of Native Americans just as our children are finally learning the true story of slavery, Jim Crow, lynching and racism.
Not sure where all those Tulsans and Oklahomans are going if they want to leave the reservation; just hope it's not Colorado.