NATO members. Obligated to back Turkey? How far?

And will backing Turkey against Syria point a dagger at Syria's best bud, Iran?

Or will help be limited to coughing up aid millions for the Syrian refugees glutting resources in Turkey and Jordan?

this is when I check with Chomsky, Dem. Now and other reliable sources, not the MSM.

PTxS

Fox World is bad enough. where the headline there is who is at fault Stevens or Hillary on the Libyan attack. X_X ahem now stay focused. oh well. (at some point the Republicans will have a stroke finding out Obama wasn't just elected by re elected next year. (considering a 2007 video I've already seen. )

MSM. Both CNN & MSNBC sites are hard enough to read... Only Shep Smith has is the only place on tv to hear real news. not everyone can get Dan Rather Reports. (itunes)

meaning it is an ally of the USA.

and we will deep dick as far as turkey wants to take it.

this is why the president seemed "somewhere" else.

if turkey wants it can declare war and all of nato has to go.

post this tripe. "Obligated to back T"

no one is obliged, it is a duty of the treaty.

turkey's call.

But it is NOT Turkey's call no matter what that treaty says. If nobody else is not in the mood for World War III, it won't happen.

Also, if other nations join to invade Syria, they all get a share of the spoils and a say in what happens next and I know in my bones Turkey does NOT want that.

Last edited Thu Oct 4, 2012, 11:43 AM - Edit history (1)

Should be a re-bulk to the Syrian Ambassador to Turkey, but can be an excuse for something more.

Please note, Turkey does not seem to care that the Government of Syria fired the Mortars (It could be the opposition) but using it as an excuse to do something in Syria.

After I wrote the above, it was reported that three Children and two women were killed by the Mortars. If the Mortar rounds had landed in an open field, not a problem, but these rounds KILLED people, someone has to pay for that. When I was in the Field Artillery we were told that every round that we fired, we were responsible for. i.e. if we made a mistake and someone was killed it meant imprisonment. Thus extensive records were kept, to show we did what we were suppose to be doing and if a mistake was made, it closed down the whole base till it was found what caused the mistake. This can last for hours as everyone is told to stand down and the paperwork was collected and examined (My unit once fired a round that NOT only missed the target, it went outside the impact area, it went outside the base and landed on the State Game Lands behind the base (Which the Appalachian trail went through). After several hours, the problem was discovered, the gun involved had an inexperience Soldier who when told to do "Charge Two" for the round. We were firing M101A1s in Fort Indian-town Gap PA, which is limited to Charge two for it is a small base. The Solider instead of leaving two Charges inside the base (Which is Charge Two for 105mm Howitzers) just removed the last two charges, leaving five Charges in the base instead of the intended two. This problem closed the whole base for the whole day till it was discovered what went wrong. The guns could have be moved, the rounds around the guns could not be moved, the Gun Crew could not leave the gun. Things like the Powder Pit by the gun could NOT be touched. They all has to sit around till the investigation was over.

I was in a National Guard Unit and in the 1980s, when the above incident occurred my unit was using the M101A1 105mm Howitzers. The M101A1 was limited to 6 charges (Bags of Gundpowder that could be removed to reduce the range of the Round fired, the bags removed were put into a "Powder Pit" as the guns were fired, when it came time to leave the firing site, then and only then were the excess charges gathered, lined up one after another and set on fire to make sure all of them were gone). The M101A1 was designed to take only a Charge 6, when first designed in the late 1930s. In the 1960s the US Army decided to replace the M101A1 with the lighter M102 105mm Howizer. While the M102 was lighter (1 1/2 tons compared to the M101A1 2 1/2 tons) it could take an additional Charge of powder, thus the 105mm rounds started to come with Seven Charges instead of the previous Six Charges (The M119 which replaced the M102 can fire an additional charge over the M102, thus can fire a Charge 8, thus 105mm Rounds today come with Eight Charges of Powder). I mention this for the above incident occurred in the 1980s the Rounds come with 7 charges, not the pre-1965 Six Charge or the Eight charges of today).

I bring up the above, for all armies have similar regulations when it comes to mortar and artillery fire. Do to the training that includes extensive paperwork, the gunners and other members of the gun crew get use to doing the paperwork, it becomes automatic. Double checks are done all the time. Thus it is almost impossible for a mistake to occur, even in combat WITHOUT someone being punished for the mistake. That is what Turkey should be demanding from Syria AND Syria should be turning over to Turkey the gunners who fired these rounds (Or court martial the gunners themselves). Something has to occur, which can be Syria providing the data why this was a mistake OR that someone else did it. The burden is on Syria for it has the Ground Radar to know where the rounds were fired from AND who was operating in that area. Turkey has knowledge of where the rounds were fired from (Similar Ground Radar Capability) but Turkey has no records of what units were operating in the area the Rounds were fired from.

The Deaths involved means someone has to be punished and right now that Syria's duty to provide what evidence it has on why those five people died.

Imagine if the rebels realize that shooting mortar over into the Syrian border will provoke a military response against the Syria army. Oh the possibilities.

And why isnt the UN doing anything about the terrorists attacking Syria having a base in Turkey? Harboring terrorists anyone? just like the justification we used to invade Syria. I forgot, it is one standard for the US and a different standard for the US enemies

nt

We invaded Afghanistan because they were harboring terrorists that attacked us on 911. Just the number of suicide bombing carried out against the civilian population that supports Assad is terrorism

The whole world just seems to be against them.

What's a good old-fashioned dictator to do these days. If he can't use his army to repress his own people (like Dad did in Assad's case), what's the point of having an army in the first place?

For one, maybe he can lobby the Obama administration to fight off its enemies. Just ask Museveni of Uganda. The dictator is now working with the US army to supposedly get rid of Kony. Same thing is going on in Yemen where we are fighting off Al Qaeda in favor of the dictator.

We do have different standard for the dictators around the world. The gulf states who are exclusively dictators are asking the Syrians to install a democratic govt while they remain dictator ships and we come along and assist.

Shame

told by a 25 yrs + dictator about a man trying to end his tyranny and I feel sorry for you. I am not defending Joseph Kony because I am sure what he is doing, for all we know, he could be fighting a clean war against Museveni and the prick dictator could be the one lying to get the support of the mighty US army.

The people supporting a dictator are the ones am talking about. Support dictators in their fight against Al Qaeda and in a different country we support Al Qaeda in their fight against a dictator. What is the criteria we use to decide when to support a rebel(Al Qaeda) against a dictator? I will like to know that and should want to know that too

in fact, his activity in Uganda has been small in the past few years. He's more of a problem in other countries. But you don't have to listen to a word Museveni says - there are plenty of NGOs and independent media that can document Kony's savagery over the years.

terrorists?

dick cheney is that you getting all puffy face?

Watch this and tell me it is not terrorism

I've been wondering about that.

given the fact that they are pissed at assad to begin with. Turkey is dealing with massive amounts of refugees and is probably really tired of having wars on it's souther border for almost 10 years.

it might just take Turkey entering into the Syrian mess to finally end it.

?

Even if they had some artillery they don't control any real territory and don't have any safe staging area to launch it.

Mortars are small arms and how much space did think it takes to fire a mortar ?

cant fire mortar inside Turkey? Now I have heard it all

Radar has been used to locate Mortar positions since at least the Vietnam war. When I was in the Service in the 1980s, we were taught to fire and scoot for as soon as we fired the enemy would know out location and would return fire. Thus it is possible for Turkey to know where the Mortars were fired from, and thus by whom.

Side note: Mortars are generally infantry weapons. for they are small enough to move about on Foot (82mm and smaller) or a light truck (120 and 4.2 inch Mortars). Thus light mortars are part of an Infantry Company (Leg Infantry, with Mechanized infantry the tendency is to use 120mm kept at Battalion level). I doubt the Syrians have 60mm mortars, for they are not liked by the Germans or the Russians (and the Russians supply Syria its weapons). Both the Germans and Russian prefer the 82 mm (The US and the rest of the world uses a 81 mm Mortar, almost the same thing, but the Germans learned how to use Mortars from the Russians during WWII and thus adopted the Russian attitude to mortars, including using a 82 mm Mortar).

Thus this sounds like it was an 82mm mortar, which can be carried by men on foot, but considered on the heavy side. I can NOT rule out a 120 mm Mortar and Syria can have larger Mortars (Isreal has a 160mm Mortar, but it is in the Artillery Chain of Command not the infantry's chain of command).

The Syrian Army has 10- 240 mm Mortars and 100 - 160mm Mortars, 700 - 120mm Mortars, and 200 82mm Mortars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_equipment_and_uniform_of_the_Syrian_Arab_Army

Picture of a M1938 120mm Mortar (200 In Syrian Service):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1938_mortar

Picture of M1943 160mm Mortars, 100 of which are in Syrian Service:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/160mm_Mortar_M1943

The high number of 120 over 82 implies to me most of these 120 are in some sort of Mechanzied weapons system (i.e. in an converted to carry a 120mm or made from say one to carry a 120mm mortar. These are NOT listed as a Self Propelled Artillery piece, but generally in its own category.

Here is Wikipedia on more modern Soviet/Russian 120mm mortar:

Designed to be hauled by foot, if you have to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2B11_Sani

Designed to be hauled BEHIND a truck:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S12_Sani

Now, the Soviet Union and later Russia have fielded a RIFLE "Combination" Mortar-Howitzer, called the 2B16, but this had NOT been exported to anyone as far as I can determine. These "Combination Guns" are 120mm Mortars, they fire from a breech (as opposes to dropped from the muzzle) and are rifled barreled (the above 120 mm mortars are all smoothbores).


http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/irfna/irfna_refs/n28en023/firespt.htm#2b16
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1786.html

So it's a policy change from back that far at least. I don't know if this is the first time the Syrians fired over the border since then, but if it is the response is pretty much expected.

But, that seems like so much ancient history now.

'we' are quite actively involved, in July the US treasury okay'd groups in this country funding the Free Syria Army

In July of 2012, a non-governmental organization based in Washington DC, called Syrian Support Group, has gotten clearance from the U.S. Treasury Department to fund the Free Syrian Army.[269]

This page was last modified on 25 September 2012 at 15:24.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Syrian_Army

there is also rumor that IHH (Mavi Mamara group) is running guns to the Free Syria Army, are they being funded from the US?

Now will NATO act on Turkey's behalf, that remains to be seen, all depends on how much the 'West' wishes to keep a ally of Iran (Assad) tied up with his own problems or perhaps put an end to the horror going on in Syria

may just start ww3.

Very reckless.

Even if Turkey goes full scale invasion, that just means Assad topples. No one's going to come to his aid militarily or do anything than give out harsh words.

Turkey resumed shelling Syrian government military positions on Thursday morning in retaliation for a mortar round which landed over its border killing five of its citizens.

Turkish state media said artillery units based in the border town of Akcakale had begun striking targets inside Syria early this morning, and that the attacks were continuing.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a London-based monitor, said a number of Assad regime soldiers had been killed in the overnight shelling at a base near the town of Tal al-Abyad.

The shelling, the first direct intervention in the Syrian conflict by an outside power, began on Wednesday night in retaliation for the deaths of five Turkish civilians, a woman and her three daughters and another woman, in Akcakale earlier in the day.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9585925/Turkey-renews-shelling-of-Syrian-targets.html