Hamas Leader Dares Israel to Invade Amid Gaza Airstrikes
Source: New York Times
By FARES AKRAM, JODI RUDOREN and ALAN COWELL
Published: November 19, 2012
GAZA CITY The top leader of Hamas dared Israel on Monday to launch a ground invasion of Gaza and dismissed diplomatic efforts to broker a cease-fire in the six-day-old conflict, as the Israeli military conducted a new wave of deadly airstrikes on the besieged Palestinian enclave, including a second hit on a 15-story building that houses media outlets. A volley of rockets fired from Gaza into southern Israel included one that hit a vacant school.
Speaking at a news conference in Cairo, where the diplomatic efforts were under way, the Hamas leader, Khaled Meshal, suggested that the Israeli infantry mobilization on the border with Gaza was a bluff on the part of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel.
If you wanted to launch it, you would have done it, Mr. Meshal told reporters. He accused Israel of using the invasion threat as an attempt to dictate its own terms and force us into silence.
Rejecting Israels contention that Hamas had precipitated the conflict, Mr. Meshal said the burden was on the Israelis. The demand of the people of Gaza is meeting their legimitate demands for Israel to be restrained from its aggression, assassinations and invasions, and for the siege over Gaza to be ended, he said.
Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/20/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?_r=0&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1353354251-cr+3/Bu4xvFDCKWor3w/lQ
Sounds like the leader of Hamas agrees he started this latest conflict and has no desire to end it, in fact, he wishes to amplify the conflict. Hamas really seems to care about the people of Gaza
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)It sounds like he wants to escalate the conflict and he doesn't really care for the innocent civilians that will be caught up in this.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)May he burn in hell for all of the innocents whose lives he is running through this endless, pointless agitation. I on him and all who put war ahead of peace. He's scum.
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)I agree 100%, and that especially includes the Bush Admin.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Netanyahu has gotten Israel into yet another lose-lose war.
It's worth repeating what Hamas and the residents of Gaza want: The demand of the people of Gaza is meeting their legimitate demands for Israel to be restrained from its aggression, assassinations and invasions, and for the siege over Gaza to be ended, he said.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)...I must sincerely question your basic understanding of what life in a combat zone is like. The only people who are losing are the innocent people of Gaza and Israel.
So long as Hamas and their extremist allies are allowed to use Gaza as their plateau for provoking conflict there will be no peace in Gaza.
This blood-sucking ass-hat would do well by the people of of Gaza to express some desire for peace. Instead, he is not, he is shitting all over peace. It's worth repeating what he said before spewing his nonsense:
I wonder how you would react to having your neighborhood shelled with unguided rocket barrages.
FreeBC
(403 posts)Nobody wins.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)...with minimal casualties. They have complete military superiority if they choose to exercise it, and now with the Iron Dome system Hamas cannot even effectively strike back. The longer this goes on the heavier casualties Hamas will take, the reverse is not necessarily true. It may be cold hard math, but it's math nonetheless.
FreeBC
(403 posts)Israel can't realistically kill enough people in Gaza to even make a tiny dent in their total population. The world community will not allow it. That's the real math. And they just confirm more life long enemies with every missile.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)That's PR bullshit and a backhanded assertion that Israel is somehow trying to commit genocide. If Israel's goal was genocide why is it that there has been no major fighting in the West Bank in almost a decade since the end of the Second Intifada? I was skeptical that the wall would work in the West Bank, but I think it's pretty clear that is has worked and it has brought peace in the West Bank even with the violence in Gaza, war in Lebanon, and the uprisings in Syria and Egypt. If Hamas will go away, there will be peace, but that will not happen until their supply of weapons is diminished and they are not resupplied by Iran.
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/19/15282386-irans-fingerprints-on-hamas-weaponry-but-its-larger-role-in-israel-gaza-crisis-remains-murky?lite
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)then why does he allow the rocket launchers to be hidden in residential neighborhoods?
FreeBC
(403 posts)They knew what they were getting into, just like the Israelis knew what they were getting into when they elected Netanyahu.
There's really nothing Obama or the US can do to make this situation better. Any suggestion of peace talks seems ludicrous when the people of both lands are electing representatives that favor war.
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)and look at what they got.
I will agree that any talk of peace seems to go down the drain.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)There is a reason there is no war in the West Bank right now
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)and have imprisoned and executed their political opposition
Freddie Stubbs
(29,853 posts)while Meshal is safe in Cairo.
glacierbay
(2,477 posts)Lars39
(26,117 posts)populations as expendable. Hamas side going for broke with the rockets, Israeli side retaliating with collective punishment that results in more land for Israel and more misery for the Palestinians. At a certain point the leaders of *both* countries are playing their citizenry as chumps.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Did you miss the part where Israel Pulled every last Jew and Jewish Settlement out of Gaza ?
Lars39
(26,117 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Link please.
FreeBC
(403 posts)From the desk of the War Nerd: http://www.nsfwcorp.com/dispatch/gaza-no-way
Gaza has one of the highest birthrates in the world. Israel has a mid-range birthrate, but the freakish thing about it is that its the West Bank settler-maniacs and the Haredi, the so-called ultra-Orthodox, who dont even serve in the IDF, who have the highest birthrates. Exactly the people Israel and its American supporters dont want to see outbreeding the secular mainstream Israeli Jews.
So Gaza is going to get more and more crowded, more and more angry, more and more willing to take 30 casualties for the chance to inflict just one on the Israelis. Thats about the rate its running now, 30 Arab casualties for every Israeli casualtyand you need to realize, that might be absolutely OK with the people in Gaza.
...
A war gamer would say its simple: you use your superior weaponry to kill everyone in Gaza, lance it like a boil. Well, thats not gonna happen. Off the table.
OK, then, you kill the bad guys and try not to kill too many good guys. Nope; there are no good or bad guys in Gaza, just goin-on-two-million people whove been harassed and humiliated and driven clean out of their minds till theyre ready to see their own neighborhood flattened on the off chance they might take a few of you with them.
OK, then, you win them over.
Nope. Just plain nope.
Mosby
(16,390 posts)What does a gaza "win" look like? Is israel going to just throw open the border crossings and say "have at it"?
Truth is that the Palestinians are running out of time for a state, in a couple more decades the world will be trying to relocate a couple billion people away from the coasts due to climate change, the Palestinians will be long forgotten by then. Almost all of tel aviv for example is only a couple meters above sea level, same goes for egypt and lebanon.
That is if the world economy does not collapse first.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Israel already had plans for this escalation on the table, but it seems that some are quite intent on shifting the blame for the deaths of civilians on to anybody but the ones who actually killed them
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012
So really, there has only been a unilateral ceasefire on the part of Israel, Hamas has constantly been waging attacks - Israel just has not been waging an air campaign until now. I think until now that Israel has shown great restraint. I think in some sense it's clear that Israel avoided hitting back throughout the various Hamas provocations because it did not want this war.
As POTUS noted in the third debate, Hamas has been bombarding Israel throughout his 2008 candidacy and his presidency:
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)are you attempting to justify Palestinian deaths today, it could seem that way
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)I am absolutely prepared to justify Palestinian deaths today by laying them firmly in the hands of Hamas and those who arm Hamas.
The Hamas political leadership does not give a shit about anyone but the Hamas political leadership.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)ellisonz
(27,711 posts)I'll skip the media hype and go with my analysis based on the apparent military facts. This conflict has been nothing but simmering.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)But I think you knew that
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)ellisonz
(27,711 posts)Explain to me how the political ideology, tactics, and foreign alliances of Islamic Jihad and Hamas are any different.
Really, I'm waiting and please, spare me the classless and categorical insults.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)If you don't understand a distinction that fundamental here, there's little point in this.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)Are you asserting that Hamas does not have transnational alliances? Because such an assertion is flawed on the face of it given the history of Hamas.
The only difference is that Hamas has operated as a political party encompassing a military wing that fights as a terror group while Islamic Jihad operates political programs and is a terrorist group. There very well may be little point in this, but I'll go with the fact-checkers on this one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad_in_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Western Governments have labelled both as terror organizations. Also, you'd be more persuasive without the condescension.
arm chair quarterbacks, we don't know who did what? Israel is our ally, so we have to believe Netanyahu in this matter. His claim is Hamas has been lobbing these missiles into Israel for some time. I'd rather take the word of Israel than a government (Hamas) pledging the total destruction of Israel and a one state solution. The fact, they have that as their goal, makes Hamas disingenuous. If Hamas worked more towards peace, then maybe they would be believable.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)from 11/13/12
Israel and the Palestinians stepped back from the brink of a new war in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday, sending signals to each other via Egypt that they would hold their fire unless attacked, after five days of mounting violence.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/11/13/uk-palestinians-israel-violence-idUKBRE8AB16A20121113
from 11/15/12
Ahead of Election & After Extrajudicial Killing Breaks Truce, Israel Prepares to Bombard Gaza
n the aftermath of the assassination of Hamas military chief Ahmad Jabiri, Israel has escalated its attacks on the Gaza Strip. At least 19 people in Gaza have been killed.
The Associated Press reported Israeli forces are advancing and closing in on the Gaza border, where they are likely to begin a ground offensive. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak has authorized the call-up of 30,000 army reservists, according to BBC News.
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/11/15/after-extrajudicial-killing-breaks-truce-israel-prepares-to-bombard-gaza-ahead-of-countrys-election/
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Recent events in Israel and the Gaza Strip have been unusual only in scope. Violence and fear of violence is a near-daily reality for the residents of Gaza and Israel's southern communities. There's a constant back and forth, and on both sides, there's always something or someone to avenge.
For instance, some Palestinian sources date the start of this latest round of violence back to November 4, when Reuters reported the death of "an unarmed, mentally unfit man" who strayed too near the border fence, did not respond to reported Israeli warnings, and was then shot. Palestinian medics report that Israeli security personnel prevented them from attending to the man for a couple of hours, and say that he likely died as a result.
But it's genuinely impossible to date today's hostilities conclusively to one incident or another; even the "two-week lull" that some outlets have said preceded Nov. 8 (when the timeline below begins) was, according to Reuters "a period of increased tensions at the Israel-Gaza frontier, with militants often firing rockets at Israel and Israel launching aerial raids targeting Palestinian gunmen."
According to Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, as of November 13, Palestinian militants had fired 797 rockets into Israel in the course of 2012 , and according to the Israeli human rights organization Btselem, between January 2009 (the conclusion of the last all-out Gaza war) and September of this year, 25 Israelis were killed by Palestinians, and 314 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces, with six more being killed by Israeli civilians.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/#
The analysis continues with internal links.
only loser speaking militarily will be the people of Gaza. Hamas does not have the military capability of Israel. Hamas is only a pest compared to Israel. Israel does not have to go in on the ground when they can do damage from the air. Hamas is putting the people of Gaza in jeopardy.
If Hamas wants a fight with Israel, then why don't they invade Israel instead of hiding behind civilians. The way they conduct War, is not unlike the terrorists, that use women and children as human shields, to get what they want. And what they really want is the total destruction of Israel. This position is what puts Netanyahu on higher ground. He has a right to defend his country if attack. The situation is untenable, as long as Hamas can lob missiles into Israel when they please. The only solution in the long term is to eliminate Hamas unless they compromise their position, and agree to the two state solution and having peace talks with Israel. The people supporting Hamas in Gaza, can also take actions, to get rid of Hamas for a better government, instead of Jihadists.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it would seem the definition for human shield is any civilian killed by IDF and what actions would you suggest the people of Gaza take? civil war? you do know that Hamas is preventing elections don't you? the reason is that they would lose and they know that
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)'Cause I'm wondering if DU was as rife with "They deserve it!" sentiment towards Iraqi civilians during our invasion as it is towards Palestinians, of either territory, in any situation.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)however when it comes to Palestinians there is no end to the excuse making for whatever actions are taken against them it seems
Puregonzo1188
(1,948 posts)Ask Jimmy Carter. Or CNN.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Whatever prevents more innocent deaths.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)The ordinary people of Gaza have nothing to do with the Hamas leadership and have no ability whatsoever to stop the madmen within it.
This war is punishing innocent throughout Gaza for the crimes of leaders they have no responsibility for. It is collective punishment, and collective punishment is always immoral.
center rising
(971 posts)Stop firing rockets into Israel. Israel stops the bombing of Gaza. Simple isn't it!!