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Redfairen

(1,276 posts)
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:34 PM Feb 2013

17 pct of male Marines surveyed likely to leave Corps if women get combat posts

Source: Associated Press

A Marine Corps survey found about 17 percent of male Marine respondents said they would likely leave the Corps if women move into combat positions.

That number jumped to 22 percent if women are assigned involuntarily to those jobs, according to the survey.

Male Marines also listed among their top concerns fears about being falsely accused of sexual harassment or assault, fraternization or some Marines getting preferential treatment. They also worried women would be limited because of pregnancy or personal issues that could affect the unit before they are sent to the battlefield.

.......

Women Marines listed among their top three concerns enemies targeting women as POWs, the risk of sexual harassment or assault and hygiene requirements, according to the results which did not given specifics.

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/marine-leader-says-infantry-skeptical-about-women-in-combat-some-positions-may-be-closed/2013/01/31/6bd727c6-6c06-11e2-8f4f-2abd96162ba8_story.html?wp_login_redirect=0

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17 pct of male Marines surveyed likely to leave Corps if women get combat posts (Original Post) Redfairen Feb 2013 OP
WTF! Shame on them. Little Star Feb 2013 #1
Or in other words, the vast majority of marines are not sexist assholes. Warren Stupidity Feb 2013 #2
I Like That way of Looking at It. Good Job! /eom dballance Feb 2013 #5
That was my read on it, too. Robb Feb 2013 #8
Well said!!! K&R !!! RKP5637 Feb 2013 #28
Yeah! And, 17% are brainwashed rush limbaugh Cha Feb 2013 #50
What's the basis in fact for that assertion? Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #80
Based on the last election, I think he means Marines are smarter than civilians. Bucky Feb 2013 #82
Well done! Hekate Feb 2013 #51
I do not think that they replied from a sexist point of view, but one of readiness Big_Mike Feb 2013 #52
if the shoe fits, at least admit to it. Warren Stupidity Feb 2013 #53
People gave nearly identical rants about blacks in the military. (nt) Posteritatis Feb 2013 #56
And most recently gays. Warren Stupidity Feb 2013 #65
You guys were wrong when you said those things about desegregation, wrong when you said those things Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #74
You do know that many other militaries have full gender integration, like Israel, Australia riderinthestorm Feb 2013 #84
Gender integration oberle Feb 2013 #88
That is exactly my point. Big_Mike Feb 2013 #92
Thank you for your post, Big Mike. amandabeech Feb 2013 #93
Do you have a link to your assertion that the IDF doesn't allow full integration? riderinthestorm Feb 2013 #95
You included the disclaimer: Bay Boy Feb 2013 #97
Ok, here are a few articles in answer to your request Big_Mike Feb 2013 #98
Good way of looking at it. Posteritatis Feb 2013 #57
Exactly, that is how I saw it. nt ZombieHorde Feb 2013 #59
Good! Le Taz Hot Feb 2013 #3
I Wonder How Many Service Members Threatened to Resign When the Service was Integrated dballance Feb 2013 #4
If you find anything that would be really interesting to know. (nt) Posteritatis Feb 2013 #58
Answering a survey and doing it are two different things jberryhill Feb 2013 #6
yeah it reminds me of all the people moving to Canada Enrique Feb 2013 #7
Most are too dependent on the gov't check. earthside Feb 2013 #13
I remember those DADT surveys... bobclark86 Feb 2013 #31
that's the best response yurbud Feb 2013 #87
Buh-Bye...Wimps! SoapBox Feb 2013 #9
So a small % of Marines are more afraid of women than of whoever their enemy is? dixiegrrrrl Feb 2013 #24
Yeah, they better get out! They could never handle an attack by an all women RKP5637 Feb 2013 #30
Marines Smilo Feb 2013 #10
Can't let that insult slide! SCVDem Feb 2013 #12
"How many total US Marines are there?" SoapBox Feb 2013 #22
YEah, the few, the proud and all that rot! AAO Feb 2013 #44
This Marine vet says SCVDem Feb 2013 #11
Ooh-Rah! SnowCritter Feb 2013 #19
Yup.... nobody in the Corps ever.... Bigmack Feb 2013 #25
If we weren't bitching SCVDem Feb 2013 #46
Good riddance! nt SunSeeker Feb 2013 #14
Great! That's a first step to downsize the military! Sancho Feb 2013 #15
+1. Sneaky. But effective. n/t Smarmie Doofus Feb 2013 #17
+2 ellisonz Feb 2013 #99
Had a funny conversation with my USMC reserve nephew last Christmas Xithras Feb 2013 #16
ROFLMAO! SoapBox Feb 2013 #23
Poor lad--he hasn't been around many women in "rough living" situations. MADem Feb 2013 #32
Hasta la vista, babies pinboy3niner Feb 2013 #18
17 pct of voters for "x" party will move to Canada if "y" party's candidate wins. JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2013 #20
The survey results don't surprise me. bluedigger Feb 2013 #21
Good. rosesaylavee Feb 2013 #26
17 percent of male Marines not manly man enough to serve with women. Let them RKP5637 Feb 2013 #27
Cough--horseshit--cough. MADem Feb 2013 #29
17% say they will leave. More like 5% would leave. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #33
right, maybe even 2%. they like the "power" they feel from the job too much Divine Discontent Feb 2013 #40
I knew this was coming. Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #34
Those who leave are the same ones we don't want to be giving guns to. Exultant Democracy Feb 2013 #35
He-man Women Haters club L0oniX Feb 2013 #36
Don't let the door hit you on the way out primavera Feb 2013 #37
100 per cent of those 17 per cent are wimps rocktivity Feb 2013 #38
they like the guns & all the govt discounts & pay too much to leave - this is the percentage who... Divine Discontent Feb 2013 #39
The oath of allegiance sulphurdunn Feb 2013 #41
Umm... so where are you going that you won't be working with women? cap Feb 2013 #42
17 pct of male Marines likely to leave Corps even if women don't get combat posts. ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2013 #43
Good riddance. I don't want my country defended or represented by BIGOTS. kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #45
The Medevac chopper lands....... SCVDem Feb 2013 #47
Doubtless the bottom 17 percent anyway. KamaAina Feb 2013 #48
I'm fine with that 17% leaving. truebluegreen Feb 2013 #49
My, my, is it possible the macho-macho type is feeling indepat Feb 2013 #54
It would be good for the Corps for those people to leave anyway. Posteritatis Feb 2013 #55
But before the announcement, 26% were planning to retire. 3c273a Feb 2013 #60
This is not directed at the poster but Who gives a fuck? Dyedinthewoolliberal Feb 2013 #61
I wonder how John2 Feb 2013 #62
This is my jar-headedness there are many like it but this one is mine underpants Feb 2013 #63
So, if women can serve in combat (fine by me), why do only males have to register with the .. olddad56 Feb 2013 #64
I seem to recall a similar poll that indicated large numbers who would leave... markpkessinger Feb 2013 #66
Message auto-removed BobFromNY5 Feb 2013 #67
As a Navy Vet...this sounds damn familiar.. wasn't this line used when they were talking about gays? Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #68
And African Americans obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #71
+1 Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #72
sounds like the "I'm moving out if Obama is elected".... sendero Feb 2013 #69
Good -- the Corps doesn't need bigots obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #70
Easy to say they will... krispos42 Feb 2013 #73
Yeah right. ThoughtCriminal Feb 2013 #75
17% is not a bad number La Lioness Priyanka Feb 2013 #76
1 out of 6. Probably would be perfectly off-set by new female recruits. Bucky Feb 2013 #81
You covered both of my thoughts on this issue Kennah Feb 2013 #86
Fuck those pigs! Do we really need armed misogynists?? MjolnirTime Feb 2013 #77
Bye bye! Don't let the door hit you. alarimer Feb 2013 #78
My belief is that many do not want to see a womans head blown off Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #79
That's an interesting point. Female inclusion definitely changes social dynamics. Bucky Feb 2013 #83
I would be upset either way treestar Feb 2013 #100
but when you go to war you see that happen to women and children civilians , it's nothing new JI7 Feb 2013 #102
Survey indicates 17percent of male marines likely to be dickheads! ncteechur Feb 2013 #85
I question someone's commitment to being in the military Politicub Feb 2013 #89
Bye. Fearless Feb 2013 #90
Good. More jobs for women then. Arkana Feb 2013 #91
I thought they were sworn to defend and protect.... grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #94
How many when blacks were integrated? duhneece Feb 2013 #96
Survey says....... Historic NY Feb 2013 #101

Robb

(39,665 posts)
8. That was my read on it, too.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:44 PM
Feb 2013

Considering the reputation the USMC has been getting (probably unfairly) as being the most resistant to change, this is a pretty good number.

Big_Mike

(509 posts)
52. I do not think that they replied from a sexist point of view, but one of readiness
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 06:34 PM
Feb 2013

I retired from Army service. My Marine brothers laugh at me, and say the Army is completely different, but in most respects these two services mirror one another. People look at women in combat and see it only in terms of equality of opportunity and that women can do any job out there. For over 90% of the jobs in the military, I agree women can do them. But not those jobs in the direct combat arms.

I led and mentored women in the Army for about 10 years of my service. I did 10 years in Combat Arms (Infantry and Combat Engineering) and 8 years in Combat Support (Heavy Equipment Engineer and Maintenance units) and two years teaching leadership (PLDC). Women can be as good or bad as any other troopie, mostly averaging towards a little better than simply good. Some were outstanding and some were duds. The outstanding I tried to promote a quickly as possible, the duds I retrained and they performed to standard or they were eventually separated from service. There is little room for under-performers in the military. The main thing about them however, is that you ALWAYS planned to use more bodies for a job when the physical requirements were severe in nature. When we had to bust tires on a deuce and a half, rather than 3 guys (maybe two with bigger guys), I'd assign six or seven females to break the tire loose from the split ring and then get the ring off the tire so that the tube could be repaired or replaced. I never of my own will assigned females to break track on the M88 recovery vehicle (was required to do it twice, and ended up having to help them rather than do my job just to get it finished). That job is a stone bitch for anyone, and getting the track back around the drive sprocket and all the rest of the reassembly is not something to remember fondly. I never ever saw a female replace individual track pads on armored vehicles. Occasionally, they would change track plates on dozers, but only very rarely. We would occasionally send down contact teams with females as attachments to combat units, but they were only attachments.

For the past 10 years, WOMEN HAVE BEEN IN COMBAT. There is no arguing that point. They have been there and done that, with some awarded Silver Stars for performance under fire. In particular, I remember the female MP whose convoy was ambushed. She took charge, drove across the ambush and counter-attacked. Tremendous leader, obviously. But closing with and destroying the enemy is not her primary job, it was something forced upon her by circumstance.

She operated a machinegun (an M60 I believe) and devastated the enemy. But she was not assigned to a foot patrol and ordered to carry the "Pig" ( a term of endearment among us old gunners) over the course of a 12 or 16 hour day of movement. Let me tell you, the pig weighs 23 pounds, each 100 rounds of ammo weighs around 7 pounds (gunner carries 300, so 21 more pounds) so just the guns is 46 pound to carry. Full battle rattle is another 40 pounds. There is 86 pounds already loaded on someone who might go as high as 140 - 150 pounds. In her performance, she crossed across the ambush and attacked. On foot, she most likely would failed to have accomplished what she did. Perhaps she could have crawled across the ambush, but she could never have run. I do not know this as a fact, but based upon 20 years experience, I would strongly bet that way.

Also, given the lack of upper body strength in most females, how long do you think she could actually function on a daily basis? In two years of monthly rotations teaching basic combat patrolling with 3 females out of my 15 soldiers, I never had one last more than about an hour as either pig gunner or as radio operator. I know that anecdote does not equal data, but I sure as hell could plan that way! Yes, there are a very few who could likely stand the pressure, but overall women in direct combat positions is a weakness and adversely affects readiness.

The physiological issues are simple - ignore it. If a unit is ever attacked by chemical weapons or is exposed to nuclear fallout, the decontamination points are co-ed. Everybody is decontaminated, stripped naked and showered as part of final decontamination. No separate lines. Ignore it and drive on. In combat, how they pee should not matter, just that they are by your shoulder, fighting to save your life as you save theirs. Unfortunately, there are many old people in the US who never grew up and are childish about this. It should not matter, but for many it does. Fuck it, ignore it is my motto.

I am a big supporter of women in the service, but I think both the unit and the individual suffer if women are added to infantry, armor, some cavalry, and most combat engineer positions; particularly when assigned to Light units. Maybe they could partly work out in a wheeled or tracked unit, but never in light units.) As an aside, Light only means that they carry everything everywhere they go. And let me tell you, it is NOT light!!). As a Combat Engineer, rather than machinegun ammo, I carried 20 - 60 pounds of high explosive. Kicked my ass every time. But I carried it, day in and day out. I climbed mountains, crossed jungles or trekked across deserts with my load. The terrain did not matter, mission accomplishment is all that matters.

And in my humble opinion, females in direct combat units will not foster mission accomplishment, only hinder it.

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
74. You guys were wrong when you said those things about desegregation, wrong when you said those things
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 08:05 AM
Feb 2013

about gay members of the military and you will be proven wrong by history as to your views on women as well. (you alread have been, you chose just not to notice...)

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
84. You do know that many other militaries have full gender integration, like Israel, Australia
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 02:44 PM
Feb 2013

New Zealand and more, right?

Or are you going to tell me that, for example, the IDF would do something that hinders "mission accomplishment"? Or that in the past 10 - 20 years that these military combat units have been fully integrated, that they've allowed their standards to fall off?



I'll wait right here for your answer.

oberle

(29 posts)
88. Gender integration
Tue Feb 5, 2013, 02:25 PM
Feb 2013

Fortunately for Israel, Australia and New Zealand, they don't go starting wars in inhospitable parts of the world. Ok Israel is somewhat inhospitable, but last I saw, they don't go around starting stupid wars. (yes they do do stupid things).










Big_Mike

(509 posts)
92. That is exactly my point.
Tue Feb 5, 2013, 11:42 PM
Feb 2013

Israeli units have females everywhere except in front line infantry, armor, artillery, and engineer units. In the artillery, they are in missile, fire control, or meteorological sections. In the Infantry, they are at Battalion (two levels up from direct combat, nearby the fight, but not directly engaged. They might well shoot, but they are not at the tip of the spear.) level. I have not heard their exact assignment level in Armor other than they are not in tanks themselves.

In our Engineer Battalions, units have already been commanded by females (for example, LTC Laura Loftus commanded the US Army's 4th Engineer Bn in Iraq until injured in a traffic accident). They are not at the squad level, but they are mechanics and battalion staff personnel.

I did not say they can't be in direct combat- it already happens. But elsewhere they are not assigned to the line units, only one level up.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
93. Thank you for your post, Big Mike.
Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:17 AM
Feb 2013

Women have much to contribute to the defense of our country, and I'm happy to see you acknowledge that contribution.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
95. Do you have a link to your assertion that the IDF doesn't allow full integration?
Wed Feb 6, 2013, 11:01 AM
Feb 2013

In 2000, the Equality amendment to the Military Service law stated that "The right of women to serve in any role in the IDF is equal to the right of men."

FULL equality under the law for the military forces. And that's just Israel there's also other countries that allow women in any combat role they can qualify to hold.

Whether women can be found who want those jobs, or who can do them is another question. But if they can pass the tests and fulfill their responsibilities they are allowed to hold that job in the Israeli combat units. Period.

I see nothing that stipulates that women are excluded from any position they can qualify for. If you have a link that disproves that I'm willing to look at it otherwise you are coming across as sexist and bigoted in NOT allowing women the opportunity to try for those positions.



Bay Boy

(1,689 posts)
97. You included the disclaimer:
Wed Feb 6, 2013, 12:37 PM
Feb 2013

"And that's just Israel there's also other countries that allow women in any combat role they can qualify to hold"

Which to me seems to me if they can't carry the necessary weight for the job they don't qualify.

Big_Mike

(509 posts)
98. Ok, here are a few articles in answer to your request
Wed Feb 6, 2013, 02:49 PM
Feb 2013

In the article from Bloomberg, they report that even with the law, only 90% of positions are open. I believe our numbers will come in around the mid-90th percentile, myself. And in the woman's description, they say when the load is too heavy, the get "help from the guys."

Having BT&DT, I can tell you that you SOMETIMES carry the load of your teammates, you cannot do this on a permanent basis. You degrade your capabilities too much. That the Israeli Army prescribes a minimum of 30 percent of body weight as the minimum soldiers must be able to pack seems to be reasonable on its face. However, that means that if an average woman, defined in Weight Watchers, who is 5'5" and 134 pounds, provides only 40 lbs. of load carrying.

In a study by the Center for Army Lessons Learned (CALL), they report a MINIMUM fighting load of 40 pounds and situations where over 120 pounds must be carried for 20 km per day over extended periods, and some emergencies could call for 150 pounds! I've done my share of 120+ lb. loads and hated every minute and a few approaching 150 lbs., and I was 6'6" and weighed 225 pounds. We had 150 pound guys hang those loads (80+% of body weight). I cannot envisage a woman doing day after day of movement with a load of more than her body weight.

According to this Wiki post we find the following:

Women in the Israeli Defense Forces are female soldiers who serve in the Israel Defense Forces. Israel is the only country in the world with a mandatory military service requirement for women. Women have taken part in Israel’s military before and since the founding of the state in 1948, with women currently comprising 33% of all IDF soldiers and 51% of its officers, fulfilling various roles within the Ground, Navy and Air Forces. The 2000 Equality amendment to the Military Service law states that "The right of women to serve in any role in the IDF is equal to the right of men." As of now, 88% to 92% of all roles in the IDF are open to female candidates, while women can be found in 69% of all positions.


I'd say that this matches what I have said above.

For pure facts on the ground regarding the amount of women in combat formations in other countries military forces, this article from National Geographic gives fairly decent background information. Some of the information I myself find equivocal, but overall it seems a decent portrayal. Please note the sections regarding adjusting either the standards by gender or overall lowering them. They note that eight countries have women in all positions:


That Australia is moving to all positions open with a 5 year period for the transition - I'd like to see the results at the end of 5 years before I'd sign on to something similar;

Canada, from an article in The Wall Street Journal (for better or worse), has had women in the infantry and other combat formations since 1989, and lost 4 females to combat in Afghanistan. The article cites women's perception that they were kept out of the fight to protect them. True or not, the perception lowers the confidence of the soldiers in the women's combat capabilities. Of note is the female on the machinegun team, who routinely carried 80 pound loads. In my experience, that was an average machinegun load, so that is one woman who definitely makes the grade. I do not and have never said that women cannot serve, it is just that so few meet the standard and can stand the load. The Canadian Army is 14% female, but on 2.4% serve in the combat arms. Is the cost of modifying everything worth the benefit derived?

Denmark has since 1988 allowed women in all positions. They have had 84 women serve in Afghanistan, however, the Danes do not allow women in leadership positions.

In the French Army, women are 20% of the service, but only 1.7% of the combat forces.

Germany has about 800 women in the combat arms, with no real data on them presented.

Israel is mentioned above.

New Zealand has had issues with women serving, but given this, I'll still take a Kiwi at my back and day and any place. My experience with them makes me comfortable with any of them serving.

Norway, along with Denmark, has a long history of women serving. One woman quoted has served in the infantry for 25 years, but notes that females must meet the regular standards.


And my personal criterion has always been just that: meet the regular standard. I'll never ask any more, but I demand nothing less.
 

dballance

(5,756 posts)
4. I Wonder How Many Service Members Threatened to Resign When the Service was Integrated
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:38 PM
Feb 2013

I may just have to go googling to see if I can find out. I'm willing to bet there were a fair number.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
6. Answering a survey and doing it are two different things
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:40 PM
Feb 2013

Similar stories were circulated prior to the end of DADT.

Clearly, among those not favoring a policy change, if they believe their response will influence the direction of policy, then their answers will reflect what they would prefer, and not necessarily what they would do.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
13. Most are too dependent on the gov't check.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:58 PM
Feb 2013

They won't quit no matter what they are saying now.

And despite most Marines' dislike of 'big government', they also know they couldn't make it in the private sector.

I know too many Marines and ex-Marines who bitch about the 'government' but have spent their entire adult lives on the government payroll.

(Some of the most liberal, anti-war people I know are also 'former' Marines, so I am not trying to paint with too broad a brush.)

bobclark86

(1,415 posts)
31. I remember those DADT surveys...
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:57 PM
Feb 2013

The Marines were the most intolerant of the branches. Most reported they were worried they were going to get raped in the shower because, as we all know, gay men always rape every naked man they see with no self-control, like how every single straight men, without exception, will always rape every single women at the beach.

Here's a poem for y'all I just crafted:
"First, they let the black guys serve in my unit, but I didn't say anything because there was somebody else to stop the bullets from hitting me.

Then, they let the gay guys serve in my unit, but I didn't say anything because there was somebody else to stop the bullets from hitting me.

Then, they let in the women, but I didn't say anything because there was somebody else to stop the bullets from hitting me.

Now there's nobody left to bring in and stop the bullets from hitting me, as we're all here already."

SoapBox

(18,791 posts)
9. Buh-Bye...Wimps!
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:46 PM
Feb 2013

Oh boo-hoo! They can't work with women!

Then get the Fuck out! Go join some anti-women, oh except for prostitutes and strippers, group.

Good bye!

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
24. So a small % of Marines are more afraid of women than of whoever their enemy is?
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:35 PM
Feb 2013

Women sure have a lot of power, yes we do.

RKP5637

(67,111 posts)
30. Yeah, they better get out! They could never handle an attack by an all women
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:53 PM
Feb 2013

invasion. Unfit for service, I say.

 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
12. Can't let that insult slide!
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:57 PM
Feb 2013

This is a very few and are not representative of the Corps.

If you do feel that way, Tell It To A Marine!

Good luck!

SoapBox

(18,791 posts)
22. "How many total US Marines are there?"
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:31 PM
Feb 2013

Answer:

"200,827 active (as of June 2011)
40,000 reserve (as of 2010)

Approximately 40,000 graduate each year from Paris Island, SC and San Diego, CA.

Additionally the Marines also produce officers at Quantico, VA. I am not sure how the whole process works with Marine Corps officers but I know the Naval Academy and Pensacola Florida have something to do with their training as well( I think the former is for Aviation). You basically have OCS and TBS and I am not sure of the rules regarding who gets to skip what.
But suffice it to say I would guess the Marines produce between 2 and 5 thousand officers a year as well.

So say over 40 thousand Marines a year...probably around 42,000.

If they have kept the relative same numbers (give or take 50K active or 25%) since Vietnam and the average age of a Marine graduating bootcamp is 19 then there are approximately 2.4 million U.S. Marines alive in the United States (56 years worth of Marines 75-19).

If fighting age is between 18 and 50 then there are approximately 1.3 Million Marines of fighting age living in the United States.

Once a Marine Always a Marine. United States Marines are notoriously loyal to God, Corps, and Country (in that order). Almost all of them own and maintain their own personal weapons. Many are members of the Marine Corps league, join a state Marine Corps (ie Texas State Marines) and/or regularly shoot in competition (NRA). If our country called on these Marines there would be about a million Marines in the capital (or anywhere else) within about 48 hours."

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_total_US_Marines_are_there




SO say, 17% of 240,827...is 40,941. Uh...I would say that 30,000 to 40,000 is no small number...just say'n.

But you are correct, for all of the Marine bravado and bluster, why won't they just follow orders? I say good bye and good riddance to those that don't follow command.

 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
11. This Marine vet says
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 02:55 PM
Feb 2013

Goodbye!

You are United States Marines. You follow orders and carry yourselves in an outstanding manner in thought and deed!

Personally I find this thinking juvenile and defeatist.

Get out of MY Marine Corps!

 

Bigmack

(8,020 posts)
25. Yup.... nobody in the Corps ever....
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:44 PM
Feb 2013

... asked me who I would serve with.

In fact, I was in during the mid-late 1960s, and racial integration wasn't all that well accepted by some Marines.

They(we) were told - in no uncertain terms - that we would serve proudly with fucking space aliens, if that's what the Corps said.

One more thing... Marines bitch. They bitch a lot. It goes with the insignia.

Let's see how this shakes out.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
16. Had a funny conversation with my USMC reserve nephew last Christmas
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:09 PM
Feb 2013

This was before the announcement, obviously, but we were talking about women in combat. He was trying to explain why women don't belong on patrol duties, and the best he could come up with was...urination.

"Where are they supposed to pee?"

"Where do you pee?"

"Wherever I need to. But I'm a guy."

"A woman can't piss wherever she needs to?"

"But it's different. She needs to drop her pants. That slows the patrol down. Guys don't have to do that."

"So how do you shit?"

"Uhh..."

I really wish I had a transcript of the entire conversation. It was funny as hell listening to him try to defend keeping women out of combat, only to be forced to admit that every single one of his arguments were baseless. I got even better when his mother jumped in after his "women can't handle pain as well as men" comment. Watching a 6'1" 24 year old Marine cringe and cower in front of his 5'2" 46 year old mother and she educated him about the "joys" of birthing his oversized head was priceless (he's normal now, but he really had a weirdly large head when he was born).

SoapBox

(18,791 posts)
23. ROFLMAO!
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:33 PM
Feb 2013

...isn't it hilarious...how "narrow" minded people can be. Or is it just dumb?

Go Women!

MADem

(135,425 posts)
32. Poor lad--he hasn't been around many women in "rough living" situations.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:00 PM
Feb 2013

Actually, there is a little item that enables women to pee standing up. It's popular amongst aircrews who pilot small craft that don't have a crapper onboard but do have one of those handy dandy pee tubes to whizz on the go. It is similar to this device, which is much more colorful but accomplishes the same basic purpose:

http://www.go-girl.com/what-is-gogirl.asp

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,354 posts)
20. 17 pct of voters for "x" party will move to Canada if "y" party's candidate wins.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:28 PM
Feb 2013

People say a lot of things.

But to give up a military career because of a ruling? Give up the retirement pay? The cheap and good lifetime medical insurance? This is bullshit.

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
21. The survey results don't surprise me.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:29 PM
Feb 2013

I'm curious, though. What was the response to serving in combat with involuntary soldiers without gender differentiation? They probably didn't ask that.

RKP5637

(67,111 posts)
27. 17 percent of male Marines not manly man enough to serve with women. Let them
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:49 PM
Feb 2013

go. The Marines are about teamwork, not primadonnas.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
29. Cough--horseshit--cough.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 03:53 PM
Feb 2013

How about this headline?

17 pct of male Marines surveyed likely to leave Corps because the impending drawdown will cut the branch by something close to that number


Oh well....this way, they can say they left for a bigoted reason, instead of being booted out for not making the cut.

Mark my words, the drawdown is coming, and it's going to make the one in the mid-nineties look like a frigging garden party. PT test scores will be rigidly adhered to, "satisfactory" will be regarded as "not good enough," promotions are going to get TIGHT in a rigidly up-or-out environment, advancement tests are going to be geared towards the top ten percent of a paygrade, "professional training" hoops are going to get more onerous, uniform inspections will increase, drug tests will increase, and it's going to be a Peacetime Zero Tolerance Party. I wouldn't be surprised if these idiots who mouth off on Facebook start getting some pushback/Art. 15 action from the brass. It ain't "free speech" when it's "conduct unbecoming."

Divine Discontent

(21,056 posts)
40. right, maybe even 2%. they like the "power" they feel from the job too much
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:22 PM
Feb 2013

and those 17% probably couldn't do much worthwhile outside of the corps.

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
35. Those who leave are the same ones we don't want to be giving guns to.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:09 PM
Feb 2013

Don't let the door hit you on the way out is all I can say.

primavera

(5,191 posts)
37. Don't let the door hit you on the way out
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:11 PM
Feb 2013

We've got too large a military as is; it doesn't need to swell its ranks with neanderthals. Those guys can crawl back into the swamps they came from.

rocktivity

(44,577 posts)
38. 100 per cent of those 17 per cent are wimps
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:16 PM
Feb 2013

who can't stand the idea of a woman being able to do what they can.


rocktivity

Divine Discontent

(21,056 posts)
39. they like the guns & all the govt discounts & pay too much to leave - this is the percentage who...
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:20 PM
Feb 2013

could be accused of sexual harassment in the first year...

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
41. The oath of allegiance
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:23 PM
Feb 2013

for all branches of the armed forces it is the same. It requires fealty to the Constitution and to the orders of the Commander and Chief. Personally, I have serious reservations about women serving in the combat arms, but I'm a civilian again. Those is uniform are bound by their oaths of allegiance and by the UCMJ. If they can't deal with that they should get the fuck out of the uniform of the United States, just like their fundamentalist religious brethren who think they have a higher calling to serve god than to discharge oaths they took willingly to protect and defend the US Constitution. The armed services of a democratic republic are better served without them.

cap

(7,170 posts)
42. Umm... so where are you going that you won't be working with women?
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:25 PM
Feb 2013

hunh???

Women are in a lot more fields than what you think. Including traditionally male ones.

I don't know. I heard that there are a number of remote caves somewhere in the Appalachian Mountains in Tennessee, I think.

ChairmanAgnostic

(28,017 posts)
43. 17 pct of male Marines likely to leave Corps even if women don't get combat posts.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 04:26 PM
Feb 2013

that number jumps to 22 percent if women are not assigned involuntarily to those jobs.

 

SCVDem

(5,103 posts)
47. The Medevac chopper lands.......
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 05:29 PM
Feb 2013

these Marines see it is being piloted by a woman.

What do they do?

Wait for the next helicopter piloted by a man of course!


Sometimes you need to say these things out loud to get the full effect of stupid!

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
49. I'm fine with that 17% leaving.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 05:45 PM
Feb 2013

I'd like to keep the additional 5% worried about involuntary assignment though.

Posteritatis

(18,807 posts)
55. It would be good for the Corps for those people to leave anyway.
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 06:46 PM
Feb 2013

If they're that upset over women in combat positions, I have to wonder how trustworthy they'd be around allied nations who allow women into similar roles, civilians in deployment zones, or hell, enemy forces.

If someone would try cutting short their term of service over that, they're a liability anyway.

Dyedinthewoolliberal

(15,580 posts)
61. This is not directed at the poster but Who gives a fuck?
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 08:14 PM
Feb 2013

In the military you do what you are told. If they don't like it, throw 'em out.
USMC 68-72

 

John2

(2,730 posts)
62. I wonder how
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 09:07 PM
Feb 2013

many of these macho Marines support the NRA and Lapierre or Senator Graham? It seems to me if they can support a woman's right to take on five criminals with assault weapons then why not put them in combat? That is the best training you can get. It is more in the mind than physical ability. Your desire to survive trumps everything. There are weak men too. It all depends on the individual. And religion has nothing to do with it. Apparently one of the commentors thinks so.

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
64. So, if women can serve in combat (fine by me), why do only males have to register with the ..
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 09:25 PM
Feb 2013

'selective service' bureau when they turn 18. I guess that service is still selective. Seems discrimination based on a persons gender to me.

markpkessinger

(8,401 posts)
66. I seem to recall a similar poll that indicated large numbers who would leave...
Fri Feb 1, 2013, 10:19 PM
Feb 2013

... if the ban on LGBT folks was lifted. And I believe we are still waiting for the mass exodus...

Response to Redfairen (Original post)

sendero

(28,552 posts)
69. sounds like the "I'm moving out if Obama is elected"....
Sat Feb 2, 2013, 10:28 PM
Feb 2013

...a bunch of bullshit. I'll bet you money no where near that percentage leaves.

ThoughtCriminal

(14,047 posts)
75. Yeah right.
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 12:53 PM
Feb 2013

Like all the republicans who said they would leave the country if President Obama was re-elected.

Or all the soldiers who wouldn't fight if they had to serve with black men.

Real Marines will get over it and do their job.


 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
76. 17% is not a bad number
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 12:58 PM
Feb 2013

it's probably a smaller number than the percentage of civilian population who are opposed to this.



Bucky

(54,029 posts)
81. 1 out of 6. Probably would be perfectly off-set by new female recruits.
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:45 PM
Feb 2013

I'm generously assuming that everyone threatening to quit would actually do so.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
78. Bye bye! Don't let the door hit you.
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:27 PM
Feb 2013

My ex is a retired Marine and I know that there are some good, decent, liberal ones. But this 17% is not good, decent or liberal. They are at least part of the right-wing redneck, piece of shit contingent that has infected our whole society.

So if they can't have their little he-man, no girls allowed clubhouse, they take their toys and go home.

Good luck and good riddance.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
79. My belief is that many do not want to see a womans head blown off
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:42 PM
Feb 2013

or torn to shreds, guts strewn about, it's obviously hell when it's their fellow men and it's my belief that the psyche of the male human being for the most part is largely effected by this. Males are largely hardwired for this. I know some of you will disagree but as a male and a veteran I can say I would be infinitely more troubled by seeing a female soldier obliterated next to me. My opinion.

Bucky

(54,029 posts)
83. That's an interesting point. Female inclusion definitely changes social dynamics.
Sun Feb 3, 2013, 01:48 PM
Feb 2013

For the military overall, that's been a good thing. But the difference between combat and non-combat situations is pretty vast, even if the line between them has been blurred by the recent trend in nation-building missions.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
100. I would be upset either way
Wed Feb 6, 2013, 11:22 PM
Feb 2013

This is the putting women on the pedestal phenomena, making an excuse for limiting them by the idea that it's somehow "worse" for them to meet with consequences because they are "better" than men somehow.

Reminds me of an old book "The Natural Superiority of Women" which explained we were so superior we should never try to compete with men on anything.

JI7

(89,254 posts)
102. but when you go to war you see that happen to women and children civilians , it's nothing new
Thu Feb 7, 2013, 04:35 AM
Feb 2013

i just don't believe that as a reason.

Politicub

(12,165 posts)
89. I question someone's commitment to being in the military
Tue Feb 5, 2013, 03:10 PM
Feb 2013

if they have an issue with women's hygiene. Very strange, indeed.

Ironically the more resistance shown reinforces the importance of the decision to treat women as equals.

duhneece

(4,113 posts)
96. How many when blacks were integrated?
Wed Feb 6, 2013, 11:56 AM
Feb 2013

I'd like to know how that 17% or 22% compares to the percentages of Marines surveyed likely to leave the Corps when blacks were first integrated into the military?

Historic NY

(37,451 posts)
101. Survey says.......
Thu Feb 7, 2013, 04:24 AM
Feb 2013

will leave if racially intergrated, will leave if gays stay, and and now..

Excuses are like a--holes there always a bunch to go around.

Humm...perhaps this is a way for a RIF.

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