are a bane to civilization and should be hunted down and exterminated like vermin. Murder in the name of any invisible sky hero is murder, and there's no cure for religious extremism.

Murder In the name of religion is wrong, and the solution is...murder in the name of your lack of religion. You miraculously (haha--I see what i did there!) seem to share the very same myopic fanaticism of those sky god folks.

Spy agencies and evangelical missionaries have operated under the cover of "aid workers" long before the bin Laden assassination. Actual aid groups hate this neocolonialist practice because it makes them a target of suspicion in conflict areas.

That said, I'm not sure why the North Korean doctors were targeted--all other things considered, they're really the last people I'd assume to be running dog lackeys of the yankee imperialists. Or maybe that's just what they want you to think. Perhaps a bit more senseless than I give it credit for, after all.

Not to mention blaming everyone *BUT* the murderers who killed those doctors...

Which doesn't surprise me, you never struck me as being too bright with what I've noticed in these discussions. Don't think of that as just a personal attack, i just don't find smug, arrogant recitals of the establishment party line to be too insightful--that sort of nonsense is in style around here these days, but I just can't take it seriously. The attacks (from you and a handful of others) on any leftist position seem like they're ripped straight from the mind of Savage or Limbaugh, but with a "liberal" sheen that just makes the whole thing nauseating.

In truth, I am something of a Trotskyist, though not dogmatically (too much Nietzsche, Khumayni, and Jung in me for that). We tend not to mix well with the believers in the great helmsman, but I guess it's all the same to you. As such, I don't much care for the Maoist/Kimist revisionist deviation, but that won't stop me from insincerely borrowing from their lexicon to make a point.

Now, read that first post again with that in mind, and you should find that your own knee-jerk reaction was largely baseless, and your primary objection was actually addressed in the closing line.

Remind me to avoid you in dark alleys ...

and shopping malls ...

and internet forums ....

Fear not, I tend to avoid dark alleys if I can help it, I only go to a shopping mall to get sushi at my girlfriend's cafe (besides being utterly adorable, she makes the best smoked salmon rolls), and I'm not really sure how to interpret the rest of that. Do I really seem intimidating?

I did wonder about them targeting North Korean doctors. First, I was surprised that North Korea sent doctors to other countries, or allowed their doctors to leave. And second, for the reasons you mentioned, their doctors wouldn't be on top of my list as possible spies or missionaries.

Maybe the Nigerian terrorists lack the necessary language or knowledge to discriminate between North and South Koreans or North Koreans and ... whoever?

No sympathy for someone who would kill because their imaginary friend told them to. I hope they get exactly that what is coming to them.

I believe it was adequately covered with "appalling", but it's quite a simplistic error to just assume that only some spooky omnipotent whispers are to blame. Actions have very real causes; failure to consider them leaves you impotent to understand or deal with the matter. Correspondingly, to consider or understand those reasons does mean that one also has sympathy for them, but that is a mistake you have often made with me.

Boko Haram believes ALL western education is sinful, including medicine.

Their name translates as "Western education is forbidden", what do you think western medicine is?

Some things you don't need to over-rationalize and in some way blame the west for, this is a group doing exactly what it is their name to do.

That is why they didn't care if they killed North Korean doctors.

If you're going to be insensitive, you could at least be insensitive and correct.

And yes it was followed. The World Council of Churches paid for the first year of my contract working with refugees before it was bought out by the UN and in 1978 I was one of the first Americans to re enter the People's Republic of Vietnam.

When I returned I expected to get a call and a general debriefing on general economic conditions (tens of thousands of former supporters of the regime had been located to new economic zones and I could now see them returning and living on the streets of Saigon, news that I knew the CIA would love to have details on). No one ever called.

Other missionaries that I knew who were still going back and forth there and even lived in Vietnam when the communists arrived were never contacted.

The practice was objected to and halted for the reason you mention. Same for journalists.

then it most likely would be senseless murders. These guys dont actually need a reason to kill. CIA spy or real Vaccine doctors, they will kill whenever the opportunity arise.

it becomes a permanent exile in most cases.

He will not be allowed to return and see his family because he has been outside and his ideological purity will never be accepted.

It doesn't make sense to train a doctor, then exile him, where he can then bad-mouth the regime, as well as being a loss to the country.

Its just that if he goes back, even if he is loyal, he knows that the image of the outside world that the North is presenting is bizzare.


Why do they do it, for money.


If they can get a posting for a doctor for $ 8,000 a month then the doctor might get half and the regime gets half.

50k a year and you have a 100 doctors you have $ 5 million a year in hard currency, something that NK is desparate for.

In fact, it is very common to hear dissidents very prominently portrayed in the western press, as we know from the run up to the Iraq war, for example. I would like to see evidence for your claim that people sent on foreign postings aren't allowed back into North Korea.

I have worked in Asia for decades some of it in the UN. I know people who have been to NK. I don't post things that I don't know about.

The practice has been well known for some years but now they are making it known formally. The huge difference between North Korea and other repressive regimes is the degree and breadth of oppression. You not only will go to a labour camp for listening to a South Korean TV or radio, your family will go to. For that reason NK continues to hold power over dissidents even after they leave, they will punish the remaining family members.

Moreover these people are not dissidents they continue to be employed by the regime and live on North Korean passports. They probably work in areas where an agreement has been made that if they try to get asylum the host country has agreed to turn them back to the North Koreans.

And the article is from October 2011.

The site is not a well known source - I have no idea if it is reliable. The senior editor is ex-military, has consulted for defence industry companies, was a management analyst for a defence firm, and was managing editor for a publication produced by the Naval Postgraduate School. Not exactly someone likely to have unbiased views of North Korea.

I knew you would come back.

You implied that there couldn't be any such evidence and asked to see some shred of evidence that would support the premise.

I knew that you could not resist and would try and pick it apart.



It was widely reported at the time:

http://nwww.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20110410000236

It wasn't limited to Libya




LA times

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2011/10/moammar-gahhafi-death-kim-jong-il-repressive-regime-strongman.html

and

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/northkorea/2011/10/26/86/0401000000AEN20111026002200315F.HTML


http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/north-koreans-working-in-libya-wont-be-allowed-home/

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=17&ved=0CGQQFjAGOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.foreignpolicy.com%2Ftaxonomy%2Fterm%2F36&ei=hwYfUaZcor2LAtyKgcAP&usg=AFQjCNGl8dPv3Lc-BWLrbjTtbS7phve7ag

All making the same claim about one point in time. Your original claim was "he becomes a permanent exile in most cases".

But my bet is they send doctors to places like Nigera for oil. Something they can't buy on the open market.

What are North Korean doctors doing in Nigeria or anywhere outside NK in the first place? Weird story

Doctors, nurses, engineers, etc. This goes back decades.

http://news.yahoo.com/attackers-kill-3-south-korean-doctors-nigeria-093606384.html


I can't imagine why NK would send "doctors" to Nigeria. If they are in fact from NK, I would bet it is financed by China, who has been attempting to cement their stranglehold on some of that continent's resources.

I also mentioned that it could be a possible way North Korea gets oil.