Last edited Tue Jun 25, 2013, 04:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Here is what exNSA whistleblower Russ Tice said :

Indeed, NSA whistleblower Russ Tice, the principal source for The New York Times exposé of illegal Bush administration spy programs, told Sibel Edmonds' Boiling Frogs Post podcast that the secret state has ordered surveillance on a wide range of groups and individuals, including antiwar activists, high-ranking military officials, lawmakers and diplomats.

According to Tice: "Okay. They went after--and I know this because I had my hands literally on the paperwork for these sort of things--they went after high-ranking military officers; they went after members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and some of the--and judicial. But they went after other ones, too. They went after lawyers and law firms. All kinds of--heaps of lawyers and law firms. They went after judges. One of the judges is now sitting on the Supreme Court that I had his wiretap information in my hand. Two are former FISA court judges. They went after State Department officials. They went after people in the executive service that were part of the White House--their own people. They went after antiwar groups. They went after US international--US companies that that do international business, you know, business around the world. They went after US banking firms and financial firms that do international business. They went after NGOs that--like the Red Cross, people like that that go overseas and do humanitarian work. They went after a few antiwar and civil rights groups. So, you know, don't tell me that there's no abuse, because I've had this stuff in my hand and looked at it."

"Here's the big one," Tice told hosts Sibel Edmonds and Peter B. Collins, "this was in summer of 2004, one of the papers that I held in my hand was to wiretap a bunch of numbers associated with a 40-something-year-old wannabe senator for Illinois. You wouldn't happen to know where that guy lives right now would you? It's a big white house in Washington, D.C. That's who they went after, and that's the president of the United States now."

Other political targets revealed by Tice included all nine Supreme Court justices, Senate Intelligence Committee head Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), House Minority leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and ousted CIA director General David Petraeus, who allegedly resigned over a sex scandal.

China not only listens in on but JAILS its dissenters. It does not allow religious freedom nor freedom of the press. It is a communist dictatorship. It is an environmentally unregulated hellhole. Workers are locked in horrific factory sweatshops. No, we are not as bad as China.

magically a new member has something pro-china to say..

HMMMM .. lol

weve actually called out people from china before who pretended to be americans defending Chinese positions and proclaiming that there are no poor farmers in their country. lol.

back during the Olympics, we got more than a few...
especially after reports of them building a wall around their slums in the city so it couldn't be seen from the main highway...

not saying this person IS one of those china sympathizers (aka citizens).. but who knows these days :p


anyone who says the united states is as bad as china .. doesn't live in the united states. lol.

I meant in a political, surveillance, police state context...and in case you havn't been paying attention or live in a bubble : we have a much larger % of our population in jail and I believe we even have a larger raw number count then they do. In fact, in Asia, even with their draconian drug laws they believe extremely long prison sentences are inhumane. I think China is horrible but I am trying to illustrate the point that we aren't much better or do 2 million people in jail not count in your eyes??? It's ironic that coincidence theorists are always babbling about how crazy conspiracy theorists are (even though we have 500,00 people in prison on conspiracy charges here) and yet here I am accused f being a chinese implant because I dared hyperbolically call out good ole USA hypocrisy. I would be more worried about all the paid bloggers who have software to control 100 sock-puppet accounts to promote right wing, war mongering, TSA/NSA/CIA/DEA agendas. Unfortunately they get a lot of help from the centrists these days who defend those same policies. Long live the USA though...I hope we don't implode.

nor would anyone ever say there aren't too many and a lot for silly reasons like drugs..

however..

if you compare people in jail/detention for simply SPEAKING...

or if you compared the number of police/peace keeping forces in china versus the united states...

trust me, if you want to see a REAL police state.. youll book a flight to china soon.

Im not sure what fantasy world youre living in..
Yes, the united states has definitely moved TOWARDS the Chinese way of doing things ..
but they have us beat on all fronts when it comes to the three things you listed.


I mean come on..
They even arrest people WHO APPLY for permits to demonstrate .. let alone people actually demonstrating (btw, they have just as overwhelming of a police presence as any American rally.. hence why there is rarely violence).

Heres a link about two elderly women who were sentenced to "REDUCATION THROUGH LABOR".
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/21/sports/olympics/21protest.html?_r=0

And no, im not kidding about the things I said before..
you weren't here on DU, or youd know.

at any rate..

Welcome to DU!

drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes while playing cards and doing nothing.

Again, I live in China. Police here are a damn joke, even my neighbors say that to the cops (I speak and understand Mandarin fluently.) When people tell the cops to "roll away, fucking asshole. I'm eating dinner" in Chinese (滚开，他妈的混蛋。 我现在吃我的晚饭 I just start laughing as the cop walks away.

you could walk up to a police man and tell him of your distaste for the government without any recourse?
what if its you and a few friends who decide to shout it ?

I have no interest in the interworkings of the Chinese government. There is HUGE amounts of that here.

The Great Firewall of China is the biggest gripe. However, most people here realize their government is self-interested and only cares about itself. Since most people (the 93% that are not in the Party, government or wealthy) realize the separation, it's just part of life and there are more important things to worry about.

The young here are the biggest ramble rousers though. I was part of a session like that in Nanjing at a UBC coffee near Nanjing University. Someone was screaming against (as always) the Great Firewall. He had a crowd of about 2,000 people. The cops came, watched, listened and left.

Most of the things you see are not the police doing it. . .it is very common for influential Party members to pay people to dress as cops and to the unspeakable things we read. Alot of the bullshit, like what happened to the Blind activist Chen, are Party members and their sycophants. The police don't usually get involved. . .and if they do, it's the riot police in black uniforms.

When I lived in Seoul, a Korean put it this way: "The cops in light blue are there for show. The do nothing and have very little power. The cops in black mean get the hell out of there fast."

Same in China. The cops in light blue are meaningless. The cops in street clothes and suits have the power. Those are the Party cops and the local citizen snitches and gophers (like the ones that were harassing Christian Bale). The cops in black mean get the hell out there fast.

You think you know about China? The police that you need to fear don't wear uniforms.

It's a crime in this country for being black or brown...and a million people in jail for a flower isnt just silly. Its ruined lives..Just saying...not negating your point...just saying we are in a real police state... a fascist country whether China is worse or not.

Changed It

and I do live in China, has I have for the past six years.

I have never said there are no poor farmers. I was not a member of DU during the 2008 Olympics. I was actually living in Korea at that time.

While I support little the CCP has to say or do (or in fact my government in Washington), I will say this:

Seeing alot of the anti-Chinese statements here while I go over news articles with my Chinese national wife and listening to her ask me why Americans hate her so much bothers me to death. When posts like "The Chinese" this. . .and "The Chinese" that. . .any reasonable person can imply the posters mean people like my wife too.

Just like I tell people here in Suzhou that there is the American government and the Americans, and I rarely agree with anything my government does in my name. . .DUers, there is a difference between the Chinese in the jackholes that run their government.

I wasn't specifically talking about anyone..
And I hope others who are American citizens of Chinese descent don't think that im saying Chinese folks aren't welcome on DU.. not the case..

Sometimes though, some people will go out of their way to make excuses for anything the Chinese government does. Typically they are newer member with a small amount of posts...

Trust me, Im in noway saying Chinese people are bad people. Like you said, theres a difference between the government and the actual people of china.

Just as I don't like the government of Israel and disagree with their stances and apologizers just the same.. doesn't mean I dislike the Israeli people.

Im so sorry you took it that way, as I meant no offense to those of Chinese descent at all.

The Chinese government does infact employ (pay) people to surf the internet to counter any bad mouthing.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/chinese-government-pays-internet-users-to-troll-comment-forums-with-pro-government-propaganda/story-e6frfro0-1226056659550

it is not uncommon.

again, so sorry you took it otherwise!

They really came out of the woodwork to defend the "strong tradition of free speech in Hong Kong" when Snowden made that ridiculous statement.

Our economy is based on it.

Exporting manufacturung jobs to China has devastated our middle class.

American can't get enough cheap Chinese crap. The status-quo in America is Nike, Levis, Apple, Dell, Sony whatever else and Americans want them cheap as possible, most don't care where they're made. That is the point I was making. Benefit should be in quotations.

Americans don't give a fuck about labor conditions in the developing world as long as they get their stuff.

I am sure Americans would prefer to buy American. I do whenever I can. And most Americans would like to change the trade agreements and corporate laws that allow corporations to offshore jobs without penalty. It is the multinational corporations that are fighting to keep the status quo. There should be no economic incentive for corporations to offshore. They should be hit with fines and tarriffs on their goods when they do so. That way, American made goods can compete on a level playing field with goods unfairly made cheap by Chinese slave labor.

There is no "need" to buy unneeded crap. The fact is a good amount of Americans don't give a shit and can't see past our own shores. It is equally the fault of people and the corporations. People have voted in the Democrats and Republicans who sign these trade deals and allow them to happen, and the people line up to buy the products.

There are too many shiny things to distract Americans from the fact that their wages are stagnant, their credit cards are maxed out, and their jobs are going away. But hey, I got the latest cell phone and Survivor is on so I can't be bothered to care.

I really do think the vast majority of Americans are basically good and want what is best for our country. They just need to be educated. Writing them off is not going to make that happen.

Instead they were mocking us and calling us "dirty hippies" and "communists" and writing us off in Seattle and OWS. Americans have bought into the system hook line and sinker. The majority supported an illegal war, and then justified it by putting little stickers on their 8mpg suv.

And you are wrong about Americans not caring. They do. They just need to be educated. And given a choice.

having only a small fraction of the population of China.

I notice the person I replied to completely reworked their embarrassing post title after my reply, getting rid of their "we are just as bad as China" line.

Especially when you add the fact that the US is the only country that believes they have the moral high ground to send troops and drones around the world -in opposition to the will of the people of those countries - and kill them there.

Oh, and as "one statistics" go... it's a pretty fucking significant one.

What is your country, btw?

There is nothing "relative" about the horrors of farmer and factory worker life in China. It is inhumane by any measure. We do not have a system like that here in the US.

I notice you refuse to disclose your country.

I have an American passport.

Fortunately I do not live there anymore and never will.

Have you actually seen these horrors with your own eyes?