Okay, Snowden you did a good deed, but you also kinda defected to our two biggest rivals — which IMHO, puts some doubt in my mind about you as you reside to me in no man's land between hero and traitor.

What's the matter, your 15 minutes about up, need more attention?

1990 called and wants their cold war back. Get a grip. They are rivals because some folks make them rivals. It plays into the war whores agenda.

Trust me, it's us. We have to accept that fact.

understand why so many of us are grateful to Snowden.

Does the NSA have the goods on influential people? Is that why they are allowed to continue to operate as if they were celestial gods?

https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/prospect-blackmail-nsa

If you don't like Snowden why be among the first to respond to threads about him?

I note that when a Snowden thread goes up, a predictable crew arrives to diss the thread while with or without knowledge of it, give the thread momentum on the DU roster of threads.

Interesting phenomenon.

It's as if a bandwagon effect were being attempted on DU. Of course, I would not claim that was the intention, but it does have that effect.

If you don't like Snowden, then ignore the posts about him. That's the best thing to do unless you think that the post is bound to be very popular in any event.

I chose to be the grownup and believe not everyone is our enemy.

I didn't say we have to act like we ARE their enemies. We need to be aware that Putin and Co. are acting like the same bunch of primates we have in the Tea Party. Primates and primates.

those other guys are thousands of miles away and are a distraction to keep the rabble outraged at their behavior. Even though it don't make a darn difference in your daily life. Willful blindness? At least I am not engaging in willful arrogancy.

However, I would like to convey a real life incident to you. Back in the cold war while serving on the Nimitz aircraft carrier a Soviet Hormone helicopter hovered right over the deck at about 100 feet. All my fellow sailors were doing what the typical American does, cursing, flipping them the bird etc. The two aircrew were responding with, waving. Now I don't know what was in the hearts of those men or women in the helo, but it sure didn't feel like they hated me.
Years later when the wall came down I went to the evil empire and met those that "hated" me. Wow was I wrong, they didn't hate me or any Americans. They distrusted my government and were amazed that we are so blindly lead into supporting our governments policies then have the audacity to lecture them on "democracy". And being the dumb American I asked them how did it feel to be a democracy? What democracy ? We just want to be able to buy food and housing.
So you see in the end we tend to get it all wrong. You don't know them and they don't know you. Do yourself a favor, go and meet them, talk to them, try not to use scare tactics to force them to your will. I am betting the outcome will be nice for all involved.

Not before creating a great big, look-at-me hooha.

Snowden's supposed to be a big computer genius and can't figure out how to expose the NSA spying anonymously — like Anonymous does all the time?

He and Greenwald could've done that but they went the international acclaim, look-at-me route.

There's a name for that — attention something?

Imagine if Snowden did as you say -- became an "anonymous" whistle-blower or leaker. Without the protection which comes from public awareness, what do you think his chances of him not disappearing would have been if he were found out? (Not to mention, given the nature of what the NSA does, what are the chances of him remaining "anonymous" to the agency?) If you think I'm exaggerating the risk, see -- Ex-NSA Chief Jokes About Putting Edward Snowden on Kill List

If I were to out the NSA, I'd certainly want to be as visible to the public as possible (and I certainly would not trust the corporate American MSM to get my story out either).

But we have somewhat of a precedent for anonymous leakers/whistle blowers.

Mark Felt revealed info back in the day and his identity wasn't revealed fairly recently.

There was a way to do it, IMO, with out the dramatic world tour and martyrdom.

...I wouldn't give him a snowball's chance in hell of not being found out.

Which way would you go if it were you? Assuming you were to leak NSA's illegal activities to the press, would you do it anonymously & risk disappearing anonymously -- or would you secure the protection that comes with publicity? ...and how difficult a call would this be for you either way?

They seem to do alright without all the publicity and drama.

The guy is supposed to be a computer genius. Seems he could have figured out a way.

So please answer:

Which way would you go if it were you? Assuming you were to leak NSA's illegal activities to the press, would you do it anonymously & risk disappearing anonymously -- or would you secure the protection that comes with publicity? ...and how difficult a call would this be for you either way?

A called placed to a reporter (other than Greenwald) from a throw-away cell phone.

Seems worth a try instead of uprooting your whole life and having to live in Russia.

Meanwhile Greenwald has made a huge name for himself and parlayed it all into financial backing for his own media venture.

Somebody came out of this ok.

Wonder if Snowden feels a little used.

...A call placed to a reporter? What happens when the NSA brings all its force to bear on said reporter to reveal his/her source. This is not a safe strategy.

without giving away his name — it's doable.

C'mon, the guy's supposed to be a computer genius. Surely he could have figure out how not to leave a trail.

Wasn't he able to do that to get the info in the first place?

Sicking resources of the entire US government on my but without protection? -- No way.

if destroyed if the desire was only to out the NSA's spying. But if you apparently want international acclaim as well while claiming the high-profile route was only for protection . . . well then the route Snowden chose would be the way to go.

...without exposing yourself? Could you do that with a burner phone?

Also, I see you haven't posted HERE yet. I'm curious to see what your take is on this.

....who mentioned "cold war"? YOU.

Check and see which country the majority of Russians see as their "enemy"
No she never mentioned enemies. Does enemy count? Be careful Canada may be a enemies, you never know. But then again since it could be enemy that might be better right?

But as soon as ANY story dies down, the public falls back to sleep immediately. They always do. 15 minutes is just long enough to erase any memory of having momentarily awakened.

They are actually stirring the story up. Just ignore threads about people you don't like. Best policy. They fall down to the bottom of the thread list if no one responds to them.

Here is why we should not tire of this story.


https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/prospect-blackmail-nsa

The NSA surveillance is a threat to democracy.

The original post is not about Snowden's personality, his 15 minutes of fame, the cold war, or the Russian people's perception of the U.S. as their enemy. All of that hijacks the message, which was probably the point. We need to stay awake if we want change. Take Occupy Wall Street, for instance. What started off so well is now forgotten and even contemptuously dismissed as a failure. See what happens when people fall back to sleep?

of the NSA's spying, just tired of the world publicity tour of Snowden and the "further relevations to come Greenwald.

Couldn't the disclosures of the NSA's activities have been done anonymously without Snowden having to flee to celebrity martyrdom?

Anonymous does it all the time.

And Greenwald seems to have parlayed the whole thing into getting backing to start his own media enterprise.

Wonder if Snowden is feeling a little used yet?

Heh...clueless.

I like Edward Snowden. Maybe you are in on the NSA's activities, but really seeing the court order helped me verify and understand to what extent our government has violated our Constitution.

So I am grateful to Edward Snowden. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Why do you think Snowden has a fragile ego. I think he has a pretty normal ego. I never saw anything fragile about it. What do you mean? Thanks.

Why we should remain concerned about the NSA spying.


https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/prospect-blackmail-nsa

It is a threat to democracy. We could easily turn into an East Germany.

I believe he/she agrees with you.

Ditto.

I want Comrade Eddie, The New Russian, to Shut the FUCK UP.

It's amazing he just keeps begg'n for publicity, the second people stop talking about him.

I appreciate the sacrifice he has made so that we could verify the claims others made about the unconstitutional activities of the NSA.

Seeing the actual court orders has opened my eyes. The NSA has overstepped. It is violating several rights guaranteed under the Bill of Rights. While others had made that accusation, Snowden proved it.

So far, nothing has been done.

Snowden also proved that Clapper lied to Congress and the American people. Thank you, Edward Snowden.

Why I am not tired of this story.


https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/prospect-blackmail-nsa

While we do not have evidence of blackmail by the NSA, any time you have the government surveillance of private citizens for utterly no reason, that danger exists.

The NSA surveillance is the real threat to our democracy.

won't shut up about him themselves.

Or is it only directed towards Russians?

You are just pushing the thread to the top.

I like Snowden. I am grateful that he made me really aware of the court orders so that I could verify for myself that my government is violating the Constitution.

Thank you, Edward Snowden. K&Rd because I will never tire of hearing about this scandalous program that my government is conducting in violation of the Constitution. Here is why we should never tire of the Snowden story.


https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/prospect-blackmail-nsa

The NSA surveillance is a threat to democracy.

Even if they aren't blackmailing people, the possibility that they could blackmail people will silence loyal dissidents with new but unpopular solutions to America's problems. We cannot afford to become another East Germany.

Stop the surveillance without a warrant of American citizens. It simply is not that hard to get a warrant. It does not take that long. And if it does take that long, a system can be devised that would make it faster and more usable. But warrants must be for individual accounts and based on probable cause.

Snowden is safe from assassination by US Predator drone.

BTW, the NSA is still reading our emails and listening to our phone calls.

something new please.

he learned from Sarah P ., just say something stupid once in a while , and the media will slurp it up ; ergo : your name stays in the public eye .
This creep is a traitor , and a coward to boot !

That's all I can say to your kicking this thread.

by all means

trying to discredit him. I'd say Snowden iss doing an amazing job counterbalancing their efforts.

One guy giving an interview every couple of weeks, versus administration officials with direct access to the networks every single news cycle and twice on Sundays. Of course Snowden has the truth on his side, which helps.

I don't think you're tired of him because of the overexposure. I think there's a bit of STFU mixed in.

disclosure of the NSA's spying.

Just seems it could have been done without the world publicity tour into celebrity martyrdom.

Hell, Anonymous gets a lot of things done "anonymously" without having to flee to foreign countries — under the international spotlight whipped up by Greenwald of course (who, btw, seems to have parlayed this whole thing into financial backing to start a new media enterprise).

Greenwald's doing ok for himself. Hope Snowden is because it almost seems like he was naive and kinda used by Greenwald.

And realistically, how much of a counterbalance to the NSA can he be over there in Russia? He doesn't have access to anything anymore. He did his job. He chose his path. The public has been made aware. His part in it is kinda over. The periodic interviews almost makes it seem like he doesn't want his 15 minutes to be over.

Currently, everything he's done, and everything that's been revealed, very strongly implies that he had nothing but ulterior motives when doing all this.....that, to me, says "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt".

who wants to see the world from inside the trunk of a car.
As a taxpayer, I demand a better quality of propaganda!

I hope more people will read it now that it is close to the top of the list.

I K'd and R'd this thread.

We must remain aware that the NSA is violating our constitutional rights to privacy and a fair trial.

Sometimes when I hear public officials speaking out in defense of NSA spying, I can’t help thinking, even if just for a moment, “what if the NSA has something on that person and that’s why he or she is saying this?”

Of course it’s natural, when people disagree with you, to at least briefly think, “they couldn’t possibly really believe that, there must be some outside power forcing them to take that position.” Mostly I do not believe that anything like that is now going on.

But I cannot be 100% sure, and therein lies the problem. The breadth of the NSA’s newly revealed capabilities makes the emergence of such suspicions in our society inevitable. Especially given that we are far, far away from having the kinds of oversight mechanisms in place that would provide ironclad assurance that these vast powers won’t be abused. And that highlights the highly corrosive nature of allowing the NSA such powers. Everyone has dark suspicions about their political opponents from time to time, and Americans are highly distrustful of government in general. When there is any opening at all for members of the public to suspect that officials from the legislative and judicial branches could be vulnerable to leverage from secretive agencies within the executive branch—and when those officials can even suspect they might be subject to leverage—that is a serious problem for our democracy.

There has already been prominent speculation about this threat. David Sirota explicitly mulled the subject in this (paywalled) piece, as have writers at Firedoglake and TechDirt. Whistleblower Russell Tice has also alleged that while at the agency he saw wiretap information for members of Congress and the judiciary firsthand. Such fears explain why it is considered an especially serious matter any time elected or judicial officials are eavesdropped upon. The New York Times reported in 2009 that some NSA officials had tried to wiretap a member of Congress without a warrant. Members of Congress (and perhaps the judiciary) surely also noted a Washington Post report based on Snowden documents that the NSA had intercepted a “large number” of calls from the Washington DC area code due to a “programming error.”

https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/prospect-blackmail-nsa

Last week, an impressive array of individuals and organizations filed briefs in support of the ACLU's challenge to the massive surveillance program under which the NSA keeps a record of every phone call made or received in the United States. You can read their briefs—including those from the National Rifle Association and Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner—here. A federal court in New York will hear oral argument in our lawsuit on November 1.

While that argument is still weeks away, expect some big news tomorrow. The government is expected to release previously secret decisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court as part of the ACLU's long-running Freedom of Information Act ("FOIA&quot lawsuit seeking documents relating to the government's surveillance under the Patriot Act.

We filed our FOIA lawsuit in 2011 seeking secret legal opinions—from the secret surveillance court in D.C. and from the government's lawyers—describing the extent of the government's surveillance authority under Section 215 of the Patriot Act.
. . . .
In May 2011, members of the Senate Intelligence Committee warned the public that the Justice Department had relied upon a secret interpretation of Section 215 that would shock Americans. "When the American people find out how their government has secretly interpreted the Patriot Act," Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) said, "they will be stunned and they will be angry."

https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/tomorrow-nsa-release-fisa-court-opinions-aclu

Edward Snowden helped shine the light on dark secrets of the US government. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to post some of this information.

Lest we forget we shall end up in worse shape than East Germany under the Communists.

for the record, I will never call anyone an "attention whore"
and actually mean it. I have better things to do than shortcut rational discussion, or insult anyone who speaks out.
theres plenty of folks in that business anyway.
entirely my mistake for not responding to the poster who made the inference, or reference.
thanks for your time and effort.

What stands out to me is that the NSA often doesn't even seem to bother with getting approval from the FISA court -- which basically rubber stamps every request it receives!

This to me shows nothing but an endemic hubris in the agency; and a particular contempt for our constitutionally (highest law of the land) guaranteed rights as American citizens.

The traitors are not the whistle-blowers. The treason is institutionalized, and while the messengers are in the cross-hairs.

There's nothing to lose by outing them...A libel case wouldn't even be in the top 100 things he'd be charged with upon returning to the USA

-Laelth

Thanks for the thread, Indi Guy.

I wrote that in my original response to the post. I just don't like the fleeing part. And the bad taste in people's mouth's (even his biggest supporters have it too even if they won't admit it) and the doubt in people's mind that the fleeing — to Russia no less — was maybe something more than for safety.

How come if Greenwald could arrange all of that, why didn't he arrange to get Snowden the best fucking lawyer in the country he could find and the best bodyguards too while he was at so Snowden could stay here and fight and be even more effective as a whistle blower instead of fucking defecting. Makes one wonder is Snowden an agent or something?

I don't know, doesn't seem quite heroic.

What it seems like is Greenwald used him and parlayed the whole Snowden affair into a stepping stone to starting his own media company. And he sure isn't hiding out in Russia. He's issuing press releases about his big, new venture.

eom

knr

Freeze your balls off in Putin's paradise, you little prick.

of our Security State Gone Berserk, we are at least having the conversation. (No secret, I despise those who trash Snowden and Greenwald as sub-citizens - at best.)

Hopefully we can move toward reining in the fascism now.

It sure bothers me. IMHO he should have stayed here and fought if his principles were so rock solid.

Progressive lawyers would have come out of the woodwork to defend this guy. Greenwald should have arranged for the best body guards, hell people would have even hidden him under ground if it came to that.

Once he fled he became something other than a hero.

It bothers me when people think his contribution wasn't legit unless he gives up all his rights, opens himself up for torture and maybe spend the rest of his life in jail.

It bothers me, and should bother everyone on the planet that a whistle-blower and journalist are raked over the coals and the crimes they exposed are excused away by reactionaries and authoritarians.

I could go on, but it all makes me fucking sick - plus I'm disgusted at some who call themselves Democrats.

i don't know what to make of him. Hero or traitor, or a little of both.

And you can get mad and yell all you want. He still seems shady somehow.

or doing the right thing and NOT spending the rest of my life in prison.

I choose door #2.

Mind boggling.

Last edited Sat Oct 19, 2013, 01:33 AM - Edit history (1)

computer guy but he can't figure out how to get the information out on the NSA spying without the big grandstanding, hero "look at me I'm such a patriot", country-to-country tour?

Hell, Anonymous is able to pull off this stuff all the time and remain . . . ahhhh, what's the word . . . anonymous.

Snowden and Greenwald could have done that and alerted the public. Showden wouldn't have had to become the heroic martyr who fled and now holds press conferences, and Greenwald, well Greenwald would be just another reporter.

Get my drift now? Greenwald used Snowden and maybe Snowden allowed himself to be used.

They both could have done the reveal without this huge international production but it seems they wanted more.

I repeat, Anonymous does this stuff all the time. They just stepped in and got the Maryville rape case back in the news but no one can name them because they're not out for personal acclaim and big enough financial backing to start a media company. Seems I remember them being instrumental during the election also — something about Romney's Orca get-out-the-vote election day fail. And maybe Rove's election day fail also.

But nobody knows who they are.

As though those are in anyway equivocal?!

You are stretching so far its making you look pretty silly. I'm damn sure the NSA could discover who shone the light on the Marysville case if they cared (which I'm sure they don't and would have no desire to prosecute whoever did do it).

Revelations the size and import as Snowdens would have launched a massive hunt. Hell it already did. Closing international airspace, bringing down a presidential plane to be searched. Even getting threats of being put on Obamas secret kill list. This is just what we know!

Its pretty shitty to think for even a moment that Anonymous' work revealing shitty rape culture (as important and vital as it is) is on the same scale as Snowdens reveals. Or that there isnt ample evidence that whistleblowers under this administration receive any justice.

the NSA spying to an investigative reporter like Seymour Hersh and let the expert take over and be done with it. I still say there was no need for the international publicity tour.

If his principles were so important seems the celebrity spotlight wouldn't be.

Plus, I think he was somewhat naive and used by Greenwald, who now has parlayed his "fame" into substancial financial backing for his own media venture while Snowden is stuck in Russia. I don't think he bargained on that.

What the hell does it matter who he revealed the info to? As if your approval of what journalist is selected makes the revelations any different. The NSA and this admin are illegally spying on US citizens. The journo who revealed those facts matters not a bit in light of those facts.

You have offered no guarantee Snowden wouldn't be disappeared or suffer an even worse fate than Chelsea Manning. This admin has proven itself to be criminal in its dealings with whistleblowers even as they are acting criminally with our rights.

I say Edward Snowdwen did the only thing he could. Run while making his case to the world in order to try to stay alive.

And it worked.

I get that.

Seems though that anyone critical of this guy, who imho lies somewhere between hero and traitor, gets bashed for not giving him credit for what he did. He did a good thing, be he also mostly likely also coughed up info to China and/or Russia, his denials notwithstanding.

And I repeat — HE DID AN HONORABLE SERVICE TO THE PUBLIC.

But then there's the other part of it.

I still think he was naive and used by Greenwald who nows has parlayed the whole thing into financial backing for his own media enterprise while Snowden is stuck in Russia. At lease it's a good deal for someone.

And if you don't know, Seymour Hersh is much more respected investigative reporter than the right wing leaning Greenwald can ever hope to be.

China and Russia would similarly disappear Snowden if there were secrets to find. In fact I'd stipulate its more likely Snowden has no info on him to give or he'd be being tortured in one of their prisons for his secrets.

I'm guessing he's alive and walking around because he's got something ON them and they dare not strap him down and rip his fingernails out.

Of course I know who Hersch is but that makes absolutely zero difference who dispersed the info. Its a miracle the info got out at all. Snowden s paid a heavy price and Greenwald gets the gold prize. Won't be the first time.

Furthermore I don't think this story's done yet. I'm certainly not writing Edward Snowden out at this point. Doing that is the only naive thing in this tale.

Nor did Snowden do anything "honorable" for that matter. I'm sorry, ma, but the guy wasn't naive; he couldn't have been.....he surely knew damn well he was putting U.S. personnel at risk by doing this. But he didn't care. Not one whit. TBH, I think if anyone was the useful idiot it was probably Greenwald.

At least in the case of Chelsea Manning, she actually *was* used, and genuinely thought she was doing a real service to the public. Unfortunately, she really *was* too naive. And she now sits in prison for several decades, while the guy who did much more harm is now a free man in Putin's Russia......goddamn, this universe can be so implausibly fucked-up sometimes.

I'd always thought Snowden was both a kind of hero (for alerting the public to NSA's spying) but at the same time a traitor for turning over secret information to foreign governments.

Your post puts a new light on it. So you don't think Snowden was naive at all and in over his head but knew exactly what he was doing?

But what did he get out of it besides grinding a huge ax against the Obama administration (I know that had something to do with Greenwald's motivation).

Snowden was making good money but to do what he did and ditch his whole life to live in Russia . . . makes one wonder now. Do you think there was some kind of monetary reward that came his way?

J

Keep those NSA-loving posts coming.

reasons? Curious.

Oh, and K & R.

So what did Sticky Fingers Snowden manage to snatch from his company hard drives? A bunch of compliance docs showing that the NSA is a) vigorously complying with mandated auditing requirements, a refreshing change from a certain prior administration, and b) doing nothing illegal. Thanks, Ed!

I never have and never will understand people like you.

Damn!

Just kidding. But it's really not so hard to grasp: the kick-off last summer was a leaked subpoena, you'll recall. Nothing illegal about that, though you might object to the constitutionality of the law. And the leaked compliance docs are the product of a quadrupled NSA compliance staff greenlighted by Obama and legislated by the Dem congress that accompanied him to DC in January 2009. More here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3476856

I like to stay abreast of Snowden and I'm grateful to him for what he's done for us.

I wouldn't attempt to say it any better.

And full of rotten people.

Snowden will turn out to be the biggest hero of the early 21st century.

What would really be cool, if we the people simply turn this Metadata thing reveled by Snowden into “a free public political asset we all can use”. Yes, indeedy do…

Bo Diddley…too

but check this out from Post 92:

"Greenwald's a bit of an idiot, but I don't think he was using Snowden.

Nor did Snowden do anything "honorable" for that matter. I'm sorry, ma, but the guy wasn't naive; he couldn't have been.....he surely knew damn well he was putting U.S. personnel at risk by doing this. But he didn't care. Not one whit. TBH, I think if anyone was the useful idiot it was probably Greenwald.

At least in the case of Chelsea Manning, she actually *was* used, and genuinely thought she was doing a real service to the public. Unfortunately, she really *was* too naive. And she now sits in prison for several decades, while the guy who did much more harm is now a free man in Putin's Russia......goddamn, this universe can be so implausibly fucked-up sometimes."

all the polishing in the world wont make a gemstone of that.
the only people being used and abused are the US taxpayers
and voters.
whistleblowers are the last asset of our failed democracy,
and their importance is underlined by the ongoing treachery
of the liars in our government. Bend over, because
here come the cuts to SS and social services.

in your mind about Snowden at all? He's a whistle blower all right but he's also supposed to be a computer genius but he can't figure out how to get the information out on the NSA spying without the big grandstanding, hero "look at me I'm such a patriot", country-to-country tour?

Hell, Anonymous is able to pull off this stuff all the time and remain . . . ahhhh, what's the word . . . anonymous.

Even a throwaway cell phone and a simple call to the right investigative journalist could have done the trick if all he wanted to do was get the word out.

And then there are the considerations from Post 92. How many people in deep cover did Snowden's stolen info uncover?

Snowden and Greenwald could have done the reveal without all the hoopla. Showden wouldn't have had to become the heroic martyr who fled and now holds press conferences though, and Greenwald, well Greenwald would be just another reporter. But then nobody would know who they are.

when you have seen the repetition of sop character assassination
that NSA contractors and Republican spin doctors and hatchet men employ broken out
yet again for dissenters and whistleblowers without fail, without relent?
Yeah I could care less what his inner motivations were, I know where
the problems lay, and I wont be distracted by childish accusations meant
to move focus away from the truth.

I remember Nixon had to resign because he was connected to wiretapping phones


it was called Watergate

Americans don't like their phones wiretapped either

Merkel isn't a terrorist so why are we bugging her phone?