It is hard to know what is really going on over there.

that there may never be an end to stupid Zombie TV shows and movies.
At this rate brain eating zombies will starve to death.

right?
I was deeply gratified when the complete story was brought forward
and the American voters were allowed to make an informed decision.
*cough*
Now you wish to turn a dirty little secret into a justification?
Neat trick!
I think I woke up in Crazyland!

it's everywhere.

I just hope that like that this isn't true

makes much less (actually, ZERO) sense for the embattled government to turn their own against them.
requires crazy and stupid both to even begin to believe what is being suggested.
I demand better psy-ops!!!!

its either fake or not our business.... dontcha know?

so much for all those bleeding hearts I had been hearing about from the right my entire life :p
I also was led to believe the entire time ive been coming to du (since late 2002), that republicans/conservatives are the ones who love to live in ignorant bubbles... yet when it comes to this subject...

guess the only thing 'liberals' hearts on DU bleed for is their own self interests and what happens within the boarder of their own state/nation...
which btw, technically makes all of you nationalists... and Id love to be shown a nationalist leader or nationalist government that didn't try to oppress its people or a faction of them.

It's this same kind of denial that allows RWNJs to cut safety net programs.

you must play some major league baseball?

Attend to your own first. To me, Lied to by my gov too many times it's just another Incubator, Gulf of Tonkon, We never suspected that attack was coming, (never mind the cables and news burbs) story.
Before you call folks at DU uncaring, cold, and heartless, it's time you look at the history of Lies and false flag attacks of the U.S. Start with Goggling "Operation Northwoods".

in incubators, sniff, and telling everyone, sniff, .. That there is snif, NO SANTA! WAHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA! OH THE HUMANITY!

did they stand up and take a bow?
what pathetic noise.

Is it possible it's a hoax? Definitely.

Is it possible it's real? Also definitely. Wars bring out the worst in people, and far worse, verified atrocities have been committed by troops in the field. Snipers shooting pregnant women is tame compared to some of the things the Nazis and the Japanese did in WWII, or what some US soldiers did in Vietnam.

We should take claims like this with a healthy dose of scepticism, but we also shouldn't dismiss them out of hand entirely.

This is transparent and completely ludicrous.
I feel so cheated.
Are we that dumb as a nation that we dont deserve a better fairytale?

But on the other hand, every time I hear stories like this, I think of what Americans would have thought if stories of Nazi concentration camps in WWII were told before the US entered the war, or what the initial reaction to My Lai was.

Both were met with disbelief and dismissal, in large part because it sounded too horrific to believe. As it turned out, humans really COULD do such awful things.

but there needs to be a limit to gullibility in the face of relentless deceit.

Trained soldiers would NEVER do anything like that!

serious failure.

Last edited Sun Oct 20, 2013, 03:15 PM - Edit history (2)

DWB is said to be a good source, and we have a built in bias against disputing humanitarians. But they are not officially identifying the snipers or their bosses. There are qualifiers in this statement:

Mr Nott, who said he could not reveal the location of the hospital in which he was working, said he could not be certain which side the snipers were on but believed the were on the side of President Bashar al-Assad’s regime. He said he was told there were 72 snipers in total in the area, who were picking off civilians as they tried to cross from one city to another to fetch food.

I don't blame the surgeon for not naming names. DWB also did not want to get into the gas issue. They only reported the aftermath. Their mission is more important than their assigning blame. 'Not certain' but 'was told' and 'believe' are like chain emails.

In a civil war, this would be ill-advised, picking sides. It may be true, or for the paper, it may be political. In a war zone, a person is not free to do many things such as stating facts or escaping to tell them. This may be a wishful thinking piece by a reporter who may have an agenda he is not revealing.

Does he want Assad gone, and if we want to speculate, maybe he wanted the US to bomb Assad, or put boots on the ground? Or wants to give cover to westerners who want that, as unwelcome and as likely to fail as that would be?

We don't know the reporter's motivations, but his style of reporting could be poor. When he gratuitously tosses 'trailer trash torturer' to us for our satisfaction, it reads like a British version of Matt Drudge. Also, he referred to a surgeon as Mr. Nott. What's up with that? After 5 years to update, he didn't proofread it?

For those who care about people being bombed by the USA, there is good news, as there won't be any. There is a strong push to destroy Assad's CW. Wikipedia has an entry on the Chemical Weapons Convention and its history, updated to include the civil war that has been raging.

Kerry and Obama applied pressure through the Russians to get Assad to stop that, but did not intervene to stop the civil war which would require an invasion. Does the reporter support that, or is he simply attempting to discredit some person or government to sell his words?

Some really sick sniping was done in Sarajevo '...from 1992 to 1996, the city suffered the longest siege of a city in the history of modern warfare during the Bosnian War for independence...'

During which 'Thousands of Sarajevans lost their lives under the constant bombardment and sniper shooting at civilians by the Serb forces during the siege.' They were starving and shot trying to get out to get food or other things they needed. It was like a shooting gallery, and it was genocidal in nature - but it's possible that they didn't really know who they were shooting, but it was as out of line as actions in Syria by more than one player.

Per memory watching it unfold on the older version of CNN and as recorded in Wikipedia, the situation in Syria is not much different, but things got better in time. I've talked with some who lived through that. Since then, they are looking to the future and rebuilding.

Abu Graib named names, and it has nothing to do with Obama. The example you cited indicates Obama has let the world down in the article in your reply #30. I again emphasize the disqualifiers in that paragraph:

It is not clear whether these photographs, which are locked away in a vault, are among the hundreds which Obama is withholding - having reneged last month on his promise to release them when he came to power.

To say 'not clear' and 'locked away in a vault' and 'Obama is withholding' and 'reneged' is an opinion, not detailed on what Obama said. And the 'came to power' reference is laughable. Does the reporter mean to imply thatObama was not elected, but 'came to power' during a coup? That's what that kind of language is angling for there. And against who was this coup, the MIC?

It is in conflict with the other paragraph you cited with its suppositions:

In this deeply disturbing interview, the trailer trash torturer who appalled the world by appearing in shocking 'souvenir' photographs remains utterly unrepentant and says she has 800 MORE torture photos that could rock the White House....

So, she has 800 torture photos taken in 2004, that by 2009, less than half a year after PBO took office, she wants to 'rock the White House' with, as if Obama was at fault for what Bush did in 2004. And this is 'updated' in 2009, by some person with an axe to grind, and waited for five years to try to generate some sparks.

It appears the 'vault' really belongs to the psychopath, and she was keeping them to use to attract book sales of her sordid actions. Or was she encouraged by neo-cons to disparage this White House, because McCain didn't win?

As the piece quotes a person involved with her, she's not 'a very deep person,' and I hope we at DU are far ahead of her outlier mentality.

Obama was not even a state senator in 2004, and cannot be shamed of by a disgusting psychopath. He was not elected to change history.

What she did is documented and it is damning. The news that the army and contractors carried out horrible crimes at Abu Graib during the Bush administration is not in dispute. That the army still has deep problems is not in dispute, either.

To take office with the sole intent to chase Bush, would be less important than taking care of the USA. Bush left us bankrupt and if we think the default maniacs of 2013 were bad, when Obama came into office things were bad if not worse. He was not put in office to re-write history but to change the future.

There is no connection in the two stories other than some people are sadists and like to torture or kill. The woman at Abu Graib has nothing to do with sniping in Syria. And she should be put away. But then we have millions of baggers who are on the loose who'd like to do the same. So she'll have to wait in line for some form of rehabiliation, if any is ever offered.

So I don't know what you're reaching for here, but it's not working for me.

This isn't some made up person, or a youngster who was helping out in Syria for shits and giggles.

He's been working with Medecins Sans Frontiers for 20 years: http://www.lacrememagazine.co.uk/2012/07/mr-david-nott-indiana-jones-the-good-fight/

Performed a rare and complicated surgical operation in the jungle to save a young boy's life: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7761994.stm

Rescued a dying 8 week old baby from the rubble in Haiti: http://www.cracked.com/article_19569_5-insane-doctors-from-history-who-put-house-to-shame_p2.html

Provides specialist training in medical interventions in disaster and conflict zones to over 1,000 NHS physicians: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/indiana-jones-of-surgery-leads-uk-medics-in-warzone-training-8783639.html

If you have any questions, his contact details are easily available: http://www.chelseaconsultingrooms.com/our-health-professionals/mr-david-m-nott/

Thanks for the OP, dipsy.

It's very sad to see.

Like one media mogul has dibs on disinformation.
You would think people might catch the clues, eventually.
Will my disappointment in this species ever cease?

There's a lot of kneejerking going on in this thread, but not the type you think.

those snipers used exclusive ammo.

It is a Conrad Black rag.

I apologize for the error and appreciate the correction.

...but the narrative surrounding it is highly suspect.

Plenty of pregnant women were killed by US/UK in Iraq and Afghanistan but I am sure if you made the accusation that coalition soldiers were making a game of it and wagering cigarettes, you would probably not get an article about it in the telegraph

Last edited Sat Oct 19, 2013, 08:30 AM - Edit history (1)

The breakup of Yugoslavia has always been the model for the Syria "humanitarian" regime change op, largely planned by the same people at Foggy Bottom and Langley.

Frankly, I think this is propaganda, but there is no doubt that snipers do sick things, particularly when they're bored.