it.

I worked in an ER for many years. Hydrocodone is one of the most abused and misused prescription narcotics. Last I heard (several years ago), the street value was $80/pill. That is hearsay, not a personal experience . It was one of the most often requested medications, second only to antibiotics. We usually got a crowd on Friday just after 5..."I tried to get my doctor but they didn't call back...could I just have enough to get through the weekend?" I saw way too many young people who had died from a drug overdose, usually hydrocodone alone or coupled with alcohol or other narcotics. This makes it very hard for the patients who are suffering chronic pain and taking their meds as prescribed.

To me, it is similar to the gun safety arguments...yes there are responsible patients and responsible gun owners...but there are folks who should not be trusted with either guns are narcotics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=618033

"It's just another shining reason why the drug war is such a failure. Opiates are not particularly damaging to body systems even when taken at high doses for a long time. Bathtub drugs kill."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=618475

"38. Opiate overdose happens because the black market

has absolutely no quality control. People don't know what they're getting one batch to the next. That's why overdoses happen."

Chronic, appropriate use of opiates may not cause damage, ie liver or kidney failure, but an acute overdose of any drug that sedates a person can lead to death. This is primarily due to depressed respirations and lowered blood pressure.

which is why to get 5mg of Hydrocodone, you also need to couple the pill with 325mg of Tylenol. People that are not educted in the pharmacology of these drugs may end up taking a fatal or liver-damaging dose because of the tylenol, not the hydrocodone.

I got him to prescribe me something that had twice the codeine, and less of the Tylenol.... so taking 1/2 the pill gives me the same amount of codeine, but half the Tylenol. He really had no idea that the stuff I was taking essentially could have given me a Tylenol overdose.

He was investigating a terrible pain in my shoulder that was actually referred nerve pain from a stomach operation I had in '95. So he started sending me around to specialists and then to a pain clinic. AND he stopped my prescription!! He was afraid that if he gave me the pain killers "I would get addicted" meaning "he would get investigated". The pain clinic director heard my story and checked over my prescriptions and she called him and told him I should have been on oxycontin and that her review showed that I was not a drug seeker, but a patient in pain who managed the prescriptions well. He was shocked.

I knew that the pain was somehow connected to my stomach and the next time I saw him I took him by the shoulders and said "If you had this pain, or your wife was suffering like this, I bet you would refill the prescription. " Then I told him that since his specialists hadn't found anything, I was not leaving that day without a referral to Johns Hopkins. I figured they took care of all the weird stuff that nobody else could treat. I got to go 6 weeks later, and after an exhaustive examination I was given a little blue pill and that was the trick. Because of scar tissue, my stomach wouldn't "let down" (expand) when I ate, and the phrenic or vagus nerve was trapped in the scar tissue, which referred a tremendous pain to my shoulder about 20 minutes after I ate, especially solids. The blue pill was added to the mix and I have been able to eat ever since. Prior to this, all I could tolerate was a liquid diet!

I still have a bad knee and residual nerve pain from c4-c6 disc replacement, so I still get the pain killers on a regular basis. I don't take them as often, which is fine with me, because if it was up to me, I would never take another one. But doctors are not educated properly when it comes to chronic pain, and for most of them, they have never experienced real constant pain, so there's not a lot of empathy.

I think the FDA is making a mess of this when there are patients like me, with chronic pain, out here. They are playing with the quality of our lives, and making our doctors afraid of treating us!

all those hoops would be "signs" of drug seeking behavior. Thus proving one to be an addict. It's such bullshit.

I am sooooooo happy to have a pain management doc who makes my life seem almost normal.

It's called, Pain compliance, though this is sort of a mirror image of that concept. I think it started in the 1980s or thereabouts.

The medical establishment is moving away from narcotics for treatment of long-term, chronic pain, due to the many risk factors, including addiction and tolerance, as well as things like respiratory depression.

Other modalities have been developed that are achieving success in treating chronic pain without narcotics. So chronic patients will get the treatment they need without adding the burden of addiction.

The hope is that this measure will decrease the likelihood of abuse, and put restrictions on unscrupulous providers who staff "pill mills".

Thanks!

All they can see is the bad side of whatever they look at and never the good.

Well Beav, these are the same people who are looking out for our addictive safety, you know, the same ones who are going to allow chicken processing to be outsourced to China where they have virtually no safety regulations. What could possibly be bad about that?

It's much more important to big business not to lose money to allow many people to possibly die rather that a few thousand who might become addicted to pain killers or the many who might need to rely on that pain killer to prevent unncessary suffering.

So Beav, now do you understand? It's better to protect the interests of big business profits than to allow some people not to suffer.

Wow. Thanks Wally. Hey mom. Nice gown. Dad's just home from work. Did you get his martini ready?

a task so fortunately I have a surplus and don't need to order it often, but it is a pain in that ass to get it ordered and to me on time if I happen to forget to order before I run out. When I protest that it will take extra time to get it to my due to having to mail a physical copy of the prescription, I can just feel the condescension and that they see me as a drug seeker. My drug is Concerta (time released ritalin) and I don't think I could abuse it if I wanted to.

Living with pain is not something we choose to do. We should not have to fight tooth and nail to get a little relief. Doctors should not be considered pushers no more than legitimate patients should be considered party animals looking for the next high. If doctors are on the straight and narrow and patients have a clean record neither should be punished with such asinine rulings. The addicts will find this or anything in the chemical dept of the local hardware store to get their fix. This will not stop them but I can see where those in pain will have to find another drug store for example if theirs will not carry this type of drug.My local Target already does not carry them. We have become the new lepers in the colony. If the drug is legal there should not be a problem if it also dispensed legal.

+1

I have been on less than 10 mgs per day for a decade. Now it's a problem? Then fix the parts that hurt, dammit.

Isn't Obama and his appointees supposed to be on the side of good and compassion? He doesn't have to be concerned with reelection so WTF?

Get real, try to at least find a legitimate excuse to criticize the President.

So please don't play that odious shit with me.

He's completely helpless in the face of those mean DEA agents.

In fact, in the face of the massive power of the DEA, I think Obama probably feels something like this:

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]


Seriously, he's the goddamn PRESIDENT. I think he might be able to put a word in the right person's ear.

She cracked several vertebrae a few years ago from bad osteoporosis.

She can only get 30 day supplies (takes generic Percocet and has a patch)...a new hand written script is needed every month and I must take her in now every month for the script...Medicare/insurance will not allow them to be filled until just a few days before...only her pain management doctor will write the scrips (her primary will NOT write any scripts for narcotics...And she has been drug tested at least 4 times.

She just wants her pain controlled. Is that too much to ask at 92?

FYI...no...Tylenol does NOT work.

Fortunately I never needed them. The 600mg Ibuprofen did the job.

Doctors around here are prescribing Torodal for everything. It's addictive, it causes horrific side effects, and it does nothing to relieve pain, but it's not a scheduled drug, so it's Torodal or nothing. It was even prescribed for my dog when he hurt his leg.

I drive over a thousand miles each way to see a legitimate pain doctor, who gives me shots of cortisone in my spine, a newfangled SSRI for daily use, and a prescription for Vicodin. Since I only use it when my routine meds don't work, a bottle of 30 lasts me almost a year. For this, my doctor and I should be punished?

No, you meant Torodal - just looked it up - not even a pain killer, it's a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID).

I'm allergic to it also Prednisone.

and probably almost everywhere. I haven't heard, but is it problematic there?

Why are they doing this really?

Every fourth new patient going to a clinic or ER is a drug seeker.

When someone dies of cancer the family has to have someone guard the house during the funeral. Neighbors will come over and try to steal pain meds after surgery.


We'd be safer on the street and home if it was given away like candy that's for sure.

How can one make a comment? This is a terrible idea!!

I HATE this idea that's so prevalent among the drug warriors that if the innocent pain-sufferers have to be sacrificed so we can save the guilty from themselves, well, so be it. Since the guilty are so much more important than the innocent.

He's told me time and again how fearful he is of the DEA, how one false move, the slightest error in record-keeping, or even the DEA's misinterpretation of an otherwise completely legitimate prescription or set of scripts, a misinterpretation that the DEA will NOT be talked out of, could cause him to lose his DEA license to prescribe ANY drug covered under the Controlled Substances Act, and that he likely would lose his business if that happened.

I'm sorry, but that is more power than a good man (or government) should want or a bad man (or government) should have.

Both problems exist at the same time. It is a very complex issue.

The answer isn't to ignore the problem and hope it goes away, because it wont.

I know two people who have died from addiction to opioids, one was very good friend.

to bear, and her doctors kept her chronically short of pain meds. It cuts both ways.

And doing nothing is not a solution.

The doctors who allegedly prescribe pain pills like candy will continue to do so: requiring them to write a script as opposed to call one in isn't going to make a difference. That will hurt the people in pain who have to secure the written script (while the doctor's office is open) and then physically take it to a pharmacy. Given how tightly timed getting a refill for a pain med can be, this is Not A Good Thing.

Drug makers must account for EVERY pill made and sold. If a drug maker is selling a million more pills than are accounted for, they get charged for selling illegal narcotics like any other illegal drug manufacturer.

Common electronic scripts would help tremendously with addicts who seek prescriptions from multiple sources.

The libertarians need to temper their paranoia and stop blocking medical progress. My family's health is much more important than their ideology.

but I understand how awful chronic pain can be without something that relieves or lessens it.
There are times when I have felt like that, and when you're in serious pain, seconds seem like hours.

I live in constant pain from a compression fracture of my spine 14 years ago, then a broken fibula and tibia, followed soon after by a broken femur that was repaired with a titanium rod inserted the length of my thigh bone held in place by 3 screws drilled directly through my knee cap, then last year a ruptured appendix which required extensive repair to my colon. I have osteoarthritis and osteoporosis (hence all the broken bones). I have to visit my doctor once a month to get a 30 day supply of hydrocodone/acetaminophen 10-325. It provides minimal relief and my suicidal thoughts are growing by the day. I am 72 years old and don't see having to live this way for the rest of my so-called 'life'. Some of my most severe pain comes during the night while lying in bed, I ache so bad, it's hard to move. My monthly doctor visits are $175, plus $60 for the hydrocodone ~ I can no longer justify the cost for barely hanging on by a thread. Our country is in serious need of some education on pain relief and dying with dignity. I live on my Social Security benefits that I paid for my entire working life, which are now in question with this Nazi regime in place. Apparently only the wealthy deserve proper health care and living conditions.

I hear about these MDs just throwing Vicodin or Oxycodone at anyone and everyone, but no one ever names names.

I'm sorry you lost a dear friend, but I cannot ever agree that our policy should be to make innocent pain-sufferers suffer even more just so we can try (and still fail) to save the abusers from themselves.

"I'm sorry, but there is someone somewhere out there who might become addicted to these medications that would definitely help you, so you're just gonna have to live with your systemic pain. After all, the abuser's life is much more important to us than yours. So just suck it up and deal. Oh, you say you have little quality of life because of your pain? Yeah, well, sucks to be you. We have abusers to save."

http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/88298162.html

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/x1127237462/Board-Doctor-linked-to-deaths?i=0

then the money paid to the first doc who won't prescribe should be refunded.

It ain't complex at all when you merely presume the college boys and girls in cahoots with the corporatists are rippin' everyone off.

We have a huge population of junkies.

The medical system is overwhelmed with fallout from these people. OD is the leading cause of death for those under 45 in my state.

The mayor of War WV was actually killed by junkies who needed money for pills.

I've had several clients who tried to dissolve time release pain patches and OD'd on them.

There are 10 houses on my hollow and 3 people have died from OD's on my hollow alone.

Most of the people are not insured or are on medicaid so it adds a huge amount of unecessary expense to the system.

A very good friend got addicted and died not from OD but from Liver Cancer due to poorly controlled Hepatitis.

Medical marijuana would be a WAY better thing to give for chronic pain. If you run out of pot you may feel pain but your first thought is not to rob someone

Also while the reg may help SOME, I believe that, just like the crack epidemic of the 80's there is a HUGE economic aspect to this problem. Basically I review medical claims and about the time we reformed welfare and instituted fly overs and widespread drug testing we began to see an increase in the abuse of painkillers.

If you are poor and get medicaid and can get benzodiazapenes or painkillers then you can sell them and make WAY more than you used to be able to on AFDC.

I met one guy who told me that after an on the job accident he could no longer do construction and had to work in food. His salary went from 20 to 12 an hour but he made his child support and truck payment by selling his vicodin and just dealing with the pain.

I used to work with another girl who had femal surgery. The doctor gave her a big bottle of painkillers she took them for about a week and then sold the rest in her trailer park and totally paid off her deductable.

A friend in another town tells me he has several neighbors who have got their kids or themselves diagnosed with ADD so they can get and sell the Adderal they get.

It's a huge supplement to some peoples income. Also with the junkies you really don't want to let anybody know you have been to the hospital for surgery or anything or you are inviting a break in.


http://www.wvgazette.com/News/201207200057

http://wvmetronews.com/2013/10/08/west-virginia-ranks-first-in-drug-overdose-deaths/

http://www.fbi.gov/pittsburgh/press-releases/2012/lincoln-county-woman-faces-federal-charges-in-teays-valley-nursing-home-robbery

http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/Elderly_Woman_Beaten_and_Tied_Up_During_Home_Invasion_117371558.html

http://www.wvva.com/story/20197628/2012/11/27/woman-robbed-in-her-driveway

http://wvmetronews.com/2013/06/27/prescription-pill-addiction-led-to-hostage-situation/


Seriously it's a HUGE problem and really a big burden on the legal and health care system. I dont' think people in pain should be denied medicine, especially people in ACUTE pain, but there are better ways to control chronic pain than addictive drugs.

However WV is either dead last or near last in income and any solution will have to take into consideration that a LOT of the spread has to do with economics.

As they have toughened up on prescribing the stuff here numerous out of state gangs have moved in to fill the demand with pills from Florida where they are still lax or with heroin and then you got gangs from Columbus, and Detroit shooting it out in WV.

They've opened Pandoras box overprescribing these things and it's going to be a slow process in weaning people off of these things without causing even more problems.

I would also like to add this thought: As you described, many of the addiction-afflicted don't have health insurance. IMHO, many times people get hooked on pain pills because they take them for reasons other than physical pain---clinical depression for one. If they had decent health care, they could get the proper medications to treat the underlying problem.

Perhaps addicts treat themselves with Vicodin when what they really need is Cymbalta, for instance. The pain from clinical depression and other brain disorders is just as devastating as physical pain.

This is lame and stupid, imo.

-Laelth

I take it you've never known an addict?

I've known about half a dozen, two are now dead. Neither of them were in pain until after they became addicted.

Tobacco is highly addictive. Alcohol is addictive. Lots of things are addictive. Of all the addictive substances I know, opoids are way, way down on the list of the substances that do the most damage and cause the most problems in our society. Alcohol is the most dangerous addictive substance we have, and it's perfectly legal.

As such, why is the FDA wasting our money crusading against opoids when there are people who really need pain relief and who do not deserve to be hassled and inconvenienced in order to get it?



-Laelth

Nor am I.

Chronic pain patients and their doctors already have to jump through too many hoops. Patients are often prescribed expensive alternative pain medicines that damage their bodies further. Mixing acetaminophen with hydrocodone is another atrocity. (Let's poison addicts! Great idea!)

Addiction is a public health problem like cigarettes, alcohol, or anything else. and it should be treated as such. Any addict ought to be able to walk into a pleasant easily accessible free clinic and get help. Medical professionals ought to be able to refer drug seeking patients to such a place

Most people are not going to become addicted to opiates or anything else. Most of all any chronic pain patient who regularly takes opiates IS NOT AN ADDICT and should never be treated as such.

I take NSAIDS on-and-off for joint pain, usually until they mess with my stomach. And then I simply hurt. I don't enjoy opiates because they make me feel yucky; that opiate "buzz" just isn't that attractive to me. Perhaps it's because opiates don't play well with my other meds, or more simply, maybe I don't have the brain chemistry that causes some people to become addicted to opiates. In the same way not everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic. From what I observe, cigarettes seem to be more addictive than most drugs and they are very damaging to one's health, certainly worse than reasonable doses of opiates for pain management.

If I ever hurt much worse than I do now, then why shouldn't I be allowed to use opiates? There are many people who do hurt worse. They shouldn't have to deal with these crappy authoritarian puritanical responses to something that is merely a public health problem.

This damned "Drug War," labeling certain sorts of addictions or simple drug use as criminal (while allowing others as ordinary commerce...) is the CAUSE of most of our society's drug problem, and not any kind of solution.

I can mention one that I have experience with: Arcoxia... get denied FDA approval.


The FDA is schizoid!

So are all other OTC pain meds

Oh, but we can't have people getting happy! That would destroy America or turn us gay...

Reclassifying hydrocodone as Schedule III controlled substances is not going to lessen its availability. Just look how easy it is to get all the other Schedule III controlled substances.
I believe the vast majority of controlled substances on the black market do not come from prescription abuse. They come from other countries, or are diverted from businesses that manufacture them.

Gimmie a break